Bible John (General Discussion)

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Barn.

McInnes was clearly a solid suspect and the police moved pretty quickly to question him. So far, so good.

But there is so much missing as to how they became aware of him. I can't see how a singer at the Barrowland- 'Jessie'- would have much knowledge of his marital status or where he lived. The same applies to 'Mrs. Palka,' even if she had at some point danced with him. (We are assuming here that either or both of them were fingering McInnes.) And why did one or either alight upon McInnes given that the iconic Bible John portrait had not yet been produced? (I think there was an early photofit from the Jemima MacDonald murder on display in the Barrowland so maybe that was a factor.)

From the fragments available and Stoddart's opaque wording, 'He had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday night' it seems McInnes was a fairly well known regular at the venue. Which would make it odd for him to go looking for a victim there a mere two months after the murder of Jemima MacDonald.

Hi cobalt, yeah it's all very opaque.

With regard to "Jessie" and "Mrs Palka", their names come from Audrey Gillan's podcast.
We know that Gillan had access to police files regarding the case, although we don't know the range and breadth of these documents.
She also had access to the police officers who reinvestigated the case, so it appears that there is some factual basis to the statements made by "Jessie" and "Mrs Palka".

The early photofits were so generic as to be practically useless.
I attach a photo of Joe Beattie in what could be his office or the Incident Room, which I think illustrates this point.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The following are my notes/impressions of chapters 7-10 of Charles Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search For a Sadist".

Chapter 7: Description of a Killer
Over 450 barbers were visited by police to see if anyone recognised the description of the killers hair, which is described as short, neat sandy/fair hair.
The lack of positive results from the barbers led Police to consider the possibility that the killer wore a hairpiece.
With regards to the killer's teeth, on page 85 we are told that "Obviously to check all dental records in Scotland would be out of the question."
We are entitled to ask why this was out of the question when hunting a serial killer.
Police did check the records of all dentists in Glasgow, but not dentists in the outlying areas of Glasgow, like Lanarkshire.
Joe Beattie had a plaster cast of the killers teeth made, and circulated to every dentist in Britain.
The killers suit appeared to be of a good quality, noticably better than the suits worn by most of the men who attended the Barrowland.
Jeannie was shown a series of military and regimental ties, to see if any matched the one worn by the killer, but with no luck.
We are told that Jeannie attended over 300 identification parades.

Chapter 8: Croiset the Clairvoyant
This chapter is particularly interesting as we find out just how much credence Joe Beattie, and indeed Stoddart gave to the musings of the Dutch clairvoyant Gerard Croiset. Croiset first entered the case when he was approached by Arnott McWhinnie of the Daily Record.

On page 96 Stoddart describes Croiset as "a truly incredible Dutchman."
It becomes clear as we go on that here Stoddart is mirroring the views of Joe Beattie himself.
On page 103 we are told that Croiset "Without prompting he drew pictures from his mind of the area where he thought Bible John might be found. Croiset thought the killer was still in Glasgow and when shown a map, indicated an area in the south west part of the city in the general direction of Govan".
On the same page we are told that "Without any prior knowledge he was able to describe Bible John's personality traits and personal details: his authoritarian capacity and similar characteristics".

One of the main features of the case is the belief of Joe Beattie that the killer lived south of the river.
The only reason that Beattie thought that the killer lived south of the river was based on the statements of Croiset..
Stoddart then goes on to say in regard to the killer living south of the river "that the fact that police did not find him there is no fault of Croiset's." (page 106)
Again on page 106 we are told that "Croiset's reputation acquired over twenty five years of assistance to the police makes his findings deserve respect".
On the same page we are told that Beattie's use of Croiset was "an innovation".

It seems astonishing that Beattie allowed the whole investigation in the hunt for a serial killer to be seriously influenced, and perhaps driven by the views of a "clairvoyant", and may reflect just how desperate Joe Beattie was.
Or it may indicate incompetence of a high degree.

Chapter 9: The Role of the Press
Joe Beattie and his team fed information regularly to the press, this was done on an official basis, not as informal leaks.
DCI George Haigh was the cooirdinator of all telephone enquiries, tip-offs, sightings and snippets of information.
By September 1970 the police had received in excess of 3,500 letters and phone calls.
Fifty pieces of information came from abroad, most of them from Germany.
This was "probably due" to the fact that Helen's husband George had been based in Germany with the army. (pg 113)
It is not known how "hard" these pieces of information relating to George Puttock were.

Joe Beattie asked Dr Robert Brittain, a Forensic Psychiatrist at the Douglas Inch Clinic in Glasgow, to compile a "word description" of the kind of man the police were looking for. Doctor Brittain had diagnosed other psychopathic killers.

Brittain's article "The Sadistic Murderer" was published in 1970 in "Medicine, Science and the Law, Volume 10 (4):10 Oct 1, 1970.

Joe Beattie said of Dr Brittain's report "We have never wanted to put the public into a panic, but we cannot exclude the possibility that this man may strike again. The psychiatrist's report underlines this. (pg 118)

Chapter 10: Where is Bible John?
Joe Beattie says that he is convinced that he never came face to face with Bible John. (pg 120)
Beattie emphaasises the fact that Jeannie spent over two hours in the company of the killer.
Beattie is of the opinion that the police missed the killer in the first two weeks of the investigation.
Here Beattie is presumably referring to the first two weeks of the Helen Puttock murder.
Joe Beattie thought that Bible John was intelligent and unmarried, but gave no clue as to his reasoning for these opinions. (pg122-123)

On page 137 Stoddart writes "Around the time when the enquiry was in full swing, police found a few suicide notes with the bodies of persons whose names were already known to them. One such story appeared in The Sunday Post of September 9, 1979, concerning a Lanarkshire man who committed suicide leaving a cryptic note which some police linked with the murders of ten years before". (pg 137-138)

John McInnes committed suicide in April 1980.

Stoddart's book was published in 1980 and runs to 138 pages, so this snippet of information regarding the suicide note of a "Lanarkshire man" literally appears on the last two pages of the book. Was this Beattie's way of ensuring that something relating the suicide of a Lanarkshire man was put in the public domain, albeit as a last minute entry in the book shortly after Beattie found out about John McInnes's suicide?

Of all the books I have read on Bible John, Stoddart's is the one which gives the most, even if most of what it gives leads to a lot of other questions which intrigue and frustrate in equal measure.
I have resisted the temptation to make too many comments on the book, and I hope that what I have published across these two posts will prove of interest to people and lead to discussion on these boards.

[cobalt]

Thanks Barn.

McInnes was clearly a solid suspect and the police moved pretty quickly to question him. So far, so good.

But there is so much missing as to how they became aware of him. I can't see how a singer at the Barrowland- 'Jessie'- would have much knowledge of his marital status or where he lived. The same applies to 'Mrs. Palka,' even if she had at some point danced with him. (We are assuming here that either or both of them were fingering McInnes.) And why did one or either alight upon McInnes given that the iconic Bible John portrait had not yet been produced? (I think there was an early photofit from the Jemima MacDonald murder on display in the Barrowland so maybe that was a factor.)

From the fragments available and Stoddart's opaque wording, 'He had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday night' it seems McInnes was a fairly well known regular at the venue. Which would make it odd for him to go looking for a victim there a mere two months after the murder of Jemima MacDonald.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Stoddart comes across poorly from what I have read so far. Surely he should have been putting some of the points we have just made to Beattie when they spoke. I remarked earlier, I never trust writers who shower praise on a detective that has given them exclusive inside information on a cold case. (Martin Dillon who wrote the Shankill Butchers is a cautionary example of this.)

Stooddart says a suspect was identified 'immediately' yet we discover that two Moylan employees- neither of whom presumably match the description offered up by Jeannie- were being interviewed before McInnes ever entered the frame. So maybe Stoddart's choice of vocabulary is weak. Like HS I think the detail of McInnes' matching appearance, his marital status and his location could only have come to police attention through Smith and Murphy.

Hi cobalt,
In Episode 9 of the podcast "Bible John: Creation of a Serial Killer", Audrey Gillan says that a woman called Jessie, who sang in the Barrowland, was performing there on the Saturday after Helen's murder. Jessie gave Beattie and Valentine the name of a suspect who lived in the Hamilton area.
This information appears about 7 minutes into the podcast.

In episode 8 of the podcast we learn that in the early days of the Helen Puttock investigation a "Mrs Palka" gave the police the name of a man who was a regular at the Barrowland, who she presumably suspected.
Jimmy McInnes interviewed her, but there is no record of this interview in the case files.

We don't know if "Jessie and "Mrs Palka" are the same person, or whether we have two different people giving the names of two different suspects, or two people giving the same name of a suspect.

[cobalt]

Stoddart comes across poorly from what I have read so far. Surely he should have been putting some of the points we have just made to Beattie when they spoke. I remarked earlier, I never trust writers who shower praise on a detective that has given them exclusive inside information on a cold case. (Martin Dillon who wrote the Shankill Butchers is a cautionary example of this.)

Stooddart says a suspect was identified 'immediately' yet we discover that two Moylan employees- neither of whom presumably match the description offered up by Jeannie- were being interviewed before McInnes ever entered the frame. So maybe Stoddart's choice of vocabulary is weak. Like HS I think the detail of McInnes' matching appearance, his marital status and his location could only have come to police attention through Smith and Murphy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that the police heard about McInnes from the two Moylan's employees Thomas Murphy and Leonard Smith. The wording of the podcast is such that Thomas Murphy was taken to Patrick Marine then - another Moylan’s employee Leonard Smith was also put before Jeannie. Which clearly suggests that they were both put in front of her. Smith said that they were asked to show their teeth but it wasn’t a formal ID parade. It’s said that Beattie didn’t mention McInnes to either of them though.

So, why were the two men questioned in the first place? Can it be anything other than the card that led the police to Moylan’s? And if Beattie didn’t mention McInnes to them what caused the big guns to shoot over to Stonehouse. Was it simply a case of the two man passing the ID parade and then saying “by the way we saw John Irvine McInnes at Barrowland?” I don’t know.

Although the two cars were traced and eliminated I still find the clothing issue a puzzle (well 2 puzzles) Why did he take the clothes in the first place and how? The killer would hardly have taken a bag to the Barrowland. Everything is shouting ‘car’ at me Cobalt but it’s an unknown.

[cobalt]

Cheers Barn.

''On page 73 we read "Early enquiries produced a suspect immediately; he fitted the description given by Jeannie, he had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday, he was married but was known to frequent the dancing. Someone told the police of his identity and that he was believed to live in Stonehouse.''

This sounds a two stage ID to me. Early enquiries 'immediately' produced a suspect who matched Jeannie's description and some patron of the Barrowland Ballroom knew that he was married. (I'm curious how they knew this fact given the culture of Thursday nights at this venue.)

Further enquiries were able to put a name and address to this suspect, i.e. John McInnes of Stonehouse.

[barnflatwyngarde]

We're making some headway. The two cars spotted near the Patricia Docker murder were traced and the drivers eliminated. That fits with my suspicion that the murderer was on foot but still leaves open the question of how he disposed of the clothing.

Two persons saw Jemima MacDonald with a 'fair haired' man, one in a pub and then in the Barrowland. There is no information about whether these persons were ever invited to view an ID parade following the Helen Puttock murder. I suspect not.

We now know (if Stoddart's account is accurate) that Jeannie DID view the ID parade where clearly McInnes was the suspect. The fact she did not pick him out points to his innocence. The ID parade was three days after the murder and she may have had some alcohol to dull her senses, but it's hard to imagine she would not have remembered what BJ looked like. However were any other witnesses such as the taxi driver or the bouncers invited to this ID parade? Again, I suspect not, since Beattie seems to have (understandably perhaps) put all of his eggs in the Jeannie basket.

It would be interesting to know who identified McInnes as a man seen in the Barrowland that evening. It's not clear whether this was the same person who knew he was married, came from Stonehouse and presumably knew his name. (Could it be his work colleagues?)
Did anyone actually see McInnes in the company of Helen that evening? Or did the witnesses just see McInnes in the dance hall?

Cobalt, I'm sure that I've got the name of the person who reported McInnes to the police.
I'll have a look at my notes tomorrow and post it up.

[cobalt]

We're making some headway. The two cars spotted near the Patricia Docker murder were traced and the drivers eliminated. That fits with my suspicion that the murderer was on foot but still leaves open the question of how he disposed of the clothing.

Two persons saw Jemima MacDonald with a 'fair haired' man, one in a pub and then in the Barrowland. There is no information about whether these persons were ever invited to view an ID parade following the Helen Puttock murder. I suspect not.

We now know (if Stoddart's account is accurate) that Jeannie DID view the ID parade where clearly McInnes was the suspect. The fact she did not pick him out points to his innocence. The ID parade was three days after the murder and she may have had some alcohol to dull her senses, but it's hard to imagine she would not have remembered what BJ looked like. However were any other witnesses such as the taxi driver or the bouncers invited to this ID parade? Again, I suspect not, since Beattie seems to have (understandably perhaps) put all of his eggs in the Jeannie basket.

It would be interesting to know who identified McInnes as a man seen in the Barrowland that evening. It's not clear whether this was the same person who knew he was married, came from Stonehouse and presumably knew his name. (Could it be his work colleagues?)
Did anyone actually see McInnes in the company of Helen that evening? Or did the witnesses just see McInnes in the dance hall?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, the years of playing senior rugby, training and marathon running finally took its toll, and I have a spanking brand new knee.
Interesting operation it was, involving hammers, chisels, drills and sanders.
All done with a spinal anaesthetic.
Thank goodness for the Brian Eno album I had on my mobile phone. Never felt a thing, but even through the headphones some interesting noises percolated through.
It's genuinely nice to be back.

Glad it went well Barn, good to see you back. I hope it’s not a case of not being able to sit too near to the fire in case your new knee melts?

[barnflatwyngarde]

I’ve been sitting here waiting for you Barn, where have you been?

Thanks for posting this. On one hand we have Beattie the highly respected detective Officer yet on the other we have the suggestion of Beattie the man who sat on evidence. Blind eye or error?

Herlock, the years of playing senior rugby, training and marathon running finally took its toll, and I have a spanking brand new knee.
Interesting operation it was, involving hammers, chisels, drills and sanders.
All done with a spinal anaesthetic.
Thank goodness for the Brian Eno album I had on my mobile phone. Never felt a thing, but even through the headphones some interesting noises percolated through.
It's genuinely nice to be back.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve been sitting here waiting for you Barn, where have you been?

Thanks for posting this. On one hand we have Beattie the highly respected detective Officer yet on the other we have the suggestion of Beattie the man who sat on evidence. Blind eye or error?

[barnflatwyngarde]

As I was saying............
Apologies for the delay, but here we go, again.

The following are my notes/impressions of Charles Stoddart's book "Bible John: Search For a Sadist", published in 1980.
This is the rarest of all the books on the Bible John murders, so when I managed to get my hands on a copy, I hoped that maybe the book would provide fresh information and insights on this fascinating and frustrating case. I wasn't disappointed, but you may disagree.
I will resist the temptation to repeat already widely known facts about the case.

The book has ten chapters and a preface, the information below follows the order in the book, so some related elements may appear in several different chapters.
I will split up the info over two posts.
Part two will appear tomorrow.

1. Preface and Introduction
The author clearly has the utmost respect for Joe Beattie, and the book is dedicated to Beattie.
Stoddart tells of many meetings with Beattie as they both scoured the pile of press clippings relating to the case, presumably compiled by Beattie.
I think that it is reasonable to assume that many of the unique details of the case in the book came directly from Beattie himself.
Beattie is convinced that the killer went out with the intention of killing and that these were not opportunistic killings.
On page 25 we learn that in relation to the 3 murders "Joe is reluctant to link the three."
We are not told how he came to this conclusion.
Stoddart concedes that, as has been mentioned in this thread, that "there is very little (evidence) on the previous killing of Jemima MacDonald and almost nothing at all on the killing of Patricia Docker".
We are entitled to ask why!
For Joe Beattie to acknowledge this fact seems very strange.

2. The Death of Patricia Docker
The first officers on the scene of the murder at 8.10am were Det Sgt Andrew Johnston and DC Norman McDonald.
A Murder Squad was quickly set up under the command of Det Supt Elphinstone Dalglish.
The Police Surgeon James Imrie attended and examined the body in situ, and found ligature marks on the neck which suggested manual strangulation. The body also had marks consistent with being punched or kicked.
The post mortem confirmed that Patricia had been menstruating and that "there was no clear evidence of sexual assault."
There were no signs of Patricia's handbag or clothes.
Two cars were seen in the vicinity of the murder, a Morris 1000 Traveller and a white Ford Consul 375.
Both drivers were traced and eliminated from the enquiry.


3. Jemima McDonald (sic) : Second Victim?
Jemima's body was discovered by her sister Margaret in a derelict building, 23 McKeith Street.
I posted a photo of the interior of the building on this thread. It shows just how shabby and shocking the murder site was.
Det Supt Tom Goodall took charge of the investigation.
Jemima had been strangled with her tights, and her handbag was missing.
Jemima was seen by "a boy" who said that he saw Jemima with a fair haired man in a pub, and a "girl" who saw the same couple sitting on a settee in the Barrowland.
The Police closed their investigation at the Barrowland into Jemima's murder toward the end of October 1969. A mere two months after the murder.

4. Helen Puttock Meets Bible John
Helen and her sister Jeannie met two friends, Marion Cadder and Jean O'Donnell at the Trader's Tavern at 9.00pm and left for the Barrowland Ballroom at 1.00pm.
The Trader's Tavern is 130 yards from the Barrowland.

5. Escort to Murder
Jeannie said that Bible John was "very nice, polite and well spoken."
Bible John stood up and pulled out a chair for Helen when she approached the table.
Bible John told Jeannie that his surname was "Templeton, Sempleson or Emerson."
At the taxi rank Jeannie asked Helen where Bible John lived, Helen waved her hand, but in no particular direction.
This may indicate that he came from the other side of the city, this would appear to rule out the East End, where the Barrowland was, but could suggest the Southside or the West End.
Bible John showed a knowledge of the bus fares for the north of the city, and appeared to know some pubs in Yoker. Yoker is 3.5 miles from Byres Road.
No mention is made of the Dishevelled man seen getting on a bus and taking his bus fare from a red purse.

6. The Murder Hunt
The Senior Officers attending the murder scene were Joe Beattie, Elphinstone Dalglish and Detective Seargeant James Bunce.
Joe Beattie assumed control of the investigation.
There were signs of a struggle at the bottom of the embankment.
The Grass in the backcourt was long so Joe Beattie had it cut. Would this have possibly destroyed any evidence that was there?
Joe Beattie took George Puttock into the backcourt to identify the body.
This contradicts other accounts.
George Puttock was eliminated as a suspect on the first day of the enquiry.
Surely this is is very early to eliminate a suspect.
The Procurator Fiscal personally turned up at the murder scene. Was this usual?
Joe Beattie interviewed Jeannie Langford personally. There is no evidence that any otrher police officer was present at this interview.
On page 73 we read "Early enquiries produced a suspect immediately; he fitted the description given by Jeannie, he had been at the Barrowland, he had been at the Barrowland on the Thursday, he was married but was known to frequent the dancing. Someone told the police of his identity and that he was believed to live in Stonehouse. On the Sunday preparations were made for an identification parade to be held at 11.00am, but it didn't take place until 5.00pm; the suspect had moved from Stonehouse and the police chased around Lanarkshire all day until he was finally traced at Newarthill, near Airdrie. But when he was paraded Jeannie failed to identify anyone on the parade."

[cobalt]

A contemporary report from 1967 mentions a cafe owner, mid 40s, who heard a couple arguing near the place where Rita Ellis' body was found the following morning. This happened around 9pm, at least an hour after her last being seen.

Rather curiously a local woman, previously unaware of the case, did some detective work quite recently and discovered that the story about Rita being worried about being attacked was known to a woman who she thinks worked in a cafe at the time. Possibly the daughter of the cafe owner back in 1967 who I assume is not Pauline Badger but perhaps knew her then.

This is not much help regarding Bible John though. I have to assume the Puttock crime scene DNA has been entered on the UK database and did not match that from the army base. That leaves the possibility of John McInnes, but surely his movements have been scrutinised and he has been discounted as a suspect.

[rjpalmer]

Just a general comment on Wilson after Cobalt mentioned him giving his opinion on the Ellis murder.

Ah, okay, Michael. I thought there was some connection between Badger and Wilson's theories that I didn't know about.

I went back and listened again to the end of the Ellis podcast, and it's stranger than I remembered.

If what is stated is true--and who knows in this day and age?---the medical technician at the RAF base must have been identified--just not named, though no account I've yet seen makes this explicit.

The claim is that he was transferred abroad right after the murder of Ellis in November 1967 (this was four months before the first Bible John murder). It then also goes on to claim he was on 'leave' at the time of each of the three Bible John murders in 1968-1969. Of course, there's no way anyone could know this unless the man in question has been identified, and his service record checked. It would also have been enough of a coincidence that it would have been investigated.

As Cobalt states, since 200 men have had their DNA checked in the Ellis case and were eliminated, wouldn't he be among them? One often gets the feeling that some of these theories area a wind-up, with certain necessary bits of information deliberately withheld, but I'm still going to look into it a bit further. Ciao.