Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Ms Diddles]

i would say bj was rather successful at picking up women from the ball room but was set off by the women who he picked up who were menstruating, whether because it blocked him from going all the way or another deep seated psychological reason. i think he had a few successful pickups before and during the murders where he was with women that werent menstruating that went ok, or at least not with murder. these were definitely murders of rage and violence, unlike the ripper. more akin to rape murderers aka control killers with a definite deep seated/subconscious problem (hatred) with women.

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

[Abby Normal]

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

well he didnt neccessarily have to be a regular. maybe several, like three or four , visits there over the years with maybe a couple visits to a different club.

of course this brings up the question. when did he stop going to the clubs and why did he stop killing?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great comments being made.

Again will have to check but in the Podcast I think Jeannie (actor) says that when she saw the picture of McInnes he looked more like Castlemilk John, her man than he did BJ. This seems a very odd but very significant statement if I have got it right.

Very odd I think

NW

Not being very computer-savvy (to put it mildly) I was wondering if you had the transcript available with your podcast NW? It would save you having to keep listening over and over again. The only problem is that it’s automatically generated and is clueless about the Scottish accents so you do have to do a bit of deciphering.

[New Waterloo]

Good point Herlock I will have a go at getting transcript
NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

Hi Ms D,

I just Google’d ‘Glasgow dancehalls 1960’s’ and it threw up Barrowlands, the Locarno (Sauchiehall Street), the Plaza (Eglinton Toll), the Albert, the Astoria, the Dennistoun Palais, the Majestic and Green’s Playhouse.

Someone in one of the articles mentions that there were a dozen or so. I’m wondering if John ‘did the rounds’ which is why he wasn’t a well known face? This would drop a huge coincidence on us though of course - that the only three times where he decided to kill (for whatever reason) were at the same dancehall.

[OneRound]

Hi Ms D,

I just Google’d ‘Glasgow dancehalls 1960’s’ and it threw up Barrowlands, the Locarno (Sauchiehall Street), the Plaza (Eglinton Toll), the Albert, the Astoria, the Dennistoun Palais, the Majestic and Green’s Playhouse.

Someone in one of the articles mentions that there were a dozen or so. I’m wondering if John ‘did the rounds’ which is why he wasn’t a well known face? This would drop a huge coincidence on us though of course - that the only three times where he decided to kill (for whatever reason) were at the same dancehall.

Hi Herlock and all,

I've wondered for a while whether Bible John had a connection with or grudge against The Barrowland ... or both.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock and all,

I've wondered for a while whether Bible John had a connection with or grudge against The Barrowland ... or both.

Best regards,
OneRound

Hi OneRound,

It’s possible that he may have seen the place as a ‘den of iniquity’ and maybe he had a personal reason for thinking it worse that the other dancehalls. He may not have used other dancehalls of course but Ms D made a very valid point that no one, as far as we know, saw the Patterson portrait and said “that looks like Fred.”

Then again, if he did just turn up only on the nights of the murders we have 23rd February 1968 then a gap of 18 months to 16th August 1969 then a gap of just of 2 months to 31st October 1969.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D,

I just Google’d ‘Glasgow dancehalls 1960’s’ and it threw up Barrowlands, the Locarno (Sauchiehall Street), the Plaza (Eglinton Toll), the Albert, the Astoria, the Dennistoun Palais, the Majestic and Green’s Playhouse.

Someone in one of the articles mentions that there were a dozen or so. I’m wondering if John ‘did the rounds’ which is why he wasn’t a well known face? This would drop a huge coincidence on us though of course - that the only three times where he decided to kill (for whatever reason) were at the same dancehall.

It's entirely possible, Herlock.

I'm stretching a bit here, but perhaps he was inclined to be more ill-disposed towards the clientèle of the Barrowlands because of It's seedier reputation (particularly in relation to "over 25's night" which seems to have been notorious for extra-marital hook ups)?

Thinking of which, if he finds it so distasteful, why did he choose to go there?

Some would say to look for victims, but my feeling has always been that the murders were more spontaneous than premeditated (of course I may be wrong here).

Or a 1960's version of Victorian "slumming"?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's entirely possible, Herlock.

I'm stretching a bit here, but perhaps he was inclined to be more ill-disposed towards the clientèle of the Barrowlands because of It's seedier reputation (particularly in relation to "over 25's night" which seems to have been notorious for extra-marital hook ups)?

Thinking of which, if he finds it so distasteful, why did he choose to go there?

Some would say to look for victims, but my feeling has always been that the murders were more spontaneous than premeditated (of course I may be wrong here).

Or a 1960's version of Victorian "slumming"?

I don’t think that you’re stretching it at all. As the Barrowlands had that seedier reputation it’s possible that the killer saw the women that went there in the same light. I recall during the Yorkshire Ripper murders the comments that were made when Jayne MacDonald was killed. She wasn’t a prostitute and so was considered by the police and many member of the public as an ‘innocent lass’ or a ‘decent girl,’ as opposed to those that resorted to prostitution for a living in the eyes of many. The idea that Jayne MacDonald had done nothing to deserve her terrible fate whereas….you know the rest. Our killer might have felt that by killing women from the Barrowlands he was less likely to kill a ‘decent’ woman (in his own eyes)?

[Ms Diddles]

I don’t think that you’re stretching it at all. As the Barrowlands had that seedier reputation it’s possible that the killer saw the women that went there in the same light. I recall during the Yorkshire Ripper murders the comments that were made when Jayne MacDonald was killed. She wasn’t a prostitute and so was considered by the police and many member of the public as an ‘innocent lass’ or a ‘decent girl,’ as opposed to those that resorted to prostitution for a living in the eyes of many. The idea that Jayne MacDonald had done nothing to deserve her terrible fate whereas….you know the rest. Our killer might have felt that by killing women from the Barrowlands he was less likely to kill a ‘decent’ woman (in his own eyes)?

Indeed, or to put it crudely, he may have gone out wanting to get his oats and figured his best chance of that was at the Barrowlands over 25's night, where the women were "easy" (and ultimately disposable).

That brings us right back to the question of whether he was a Barrowlands regular though.

I suppose there are numerous possibilities, which all have different implications and raise different questions;

1) He was a Barrowlands regular. This explains why all three victims were picked up from there, but raises questions about why he wasn't recognised (particularly if he had other conquests from among the female clientele which had not ended in murder as per Abby). Against this is his apparent disdain for the place.

2) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, and just went to the Barrowlands on occasion. This would go some way to explaining why he wasn't recognised. It was just coincidence that all three victims were picked up at the Barrowlands. Big coincidence though!

3) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, but went to the Barrowlands specifically when he felt like slumming it or getting laid. This could explain why all three victims were picked up there, yet he was not recognised. If this was the case you'd expect there to be other conquests who never came forward, which I find hard to believe.

4) He rarely attended the dance halls, but just happened to go to the Barrowlands on these three occasions or thereabouts. Something about the victims antagonised or "triggered" him and it resulted in murder. Again it explains why he wasn't recognised, but is a huge coincidence.

5) He rarely attended the dance halls, but set out to the Barrowlands on three occasions with the intention of killing (perhaps with a couple of other failed attempts). As discussed on many occasions though, his behaviour at the cigarette machine and in the taxi does not seem (to me anyway) consistent with someone who is planning to kill.

I'm sure there are other options.

If this was a poll, my best guess would be 3 or 4.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Indeed, or to put it crudely, he may have gone out wanting to get his oats and figured his best chance of that was at the Barrowlands over 25's night, where the women were "easy" (and ultimately disposable).

That brings us right back to the question of whether he was a Barrowlands regular though.

I suppose there are numerous possibilities, which all have different implications and raise different questions;

1) He was a Barrowlands regular. This explains why all three victims were picked up from there, but raises questions about why he wasn't recognised (particularly if he had other conquests from among the female clientele which had not ended in murder as per Abby). Against this is his apparent disdain for the place.

2) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, and just went to the Barrowlands on occasion. This would go some way to explaining why he wasn't recognised. It was just coincidence that all three victims were picked up at the Barrowlands. Big coincidence though!

3) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, but went to the Barrowlands specifically when he felt like slumming it or getting laid. This could explain why all three victims were picked up there, yet he was not recognised. If this was the case you'd expect there to be other conquests who never came forward, which I find hard to believe.

4) He rarely attended the dance halls, but just happened to go to the Barrowlands on these three occasions or thereabouts. Something about the victims antagonised or "triggered" him and it resulted in murder. Again it explains why he wasn't recognised, but is a huge coincidence.

5) He rarely attended the dance halls, but set out to the Barrowlands on three occasions with the intention of killing (perhaps with a couple of other failed attempts). As discussed on many occasions though, his behaviour at the cigarette machine and in the taxi does not seem (to me anyway) consistent with someone who is planning to kill.

I'm sure there are other options.

If this was a poll, my best guess would be 3 or 4.

A good summing up.

Personally, I’d favour 3 but if it was a bet I’d only use your money.

The fact that no other conquest came forward might be explained if they were married or had boyfriends. Or even if they were single they might have feared for their reputations.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Indeed, or to put it crudely, he may have gone out wanting to get his oats and figured his best chance of that was at the Barrowlands over 25's night, where the women were "easy" (and ultimately disposable).

That brings us right back to the question of whether he was a Barrowlands regular though.

I suppose there are numerous possibilities, which all have different implications and raise different questions;

1) He was a Barrowlands regular. This explains why all three victims were picked up from there, but raises questions about why he wasn't recognised (particularly if he had other conquests from among the female clientele which had not ended in murder as per Abby). Against this is his apparent disdain for the place.

2) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, and just went to the Barrowlands on occasion. This would go some way to explaining why he wasn't recognised. It was just coincidence that all three victims were picked up at the Barrowlands. Big coincidence though!

3) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, but went to the Barrowlands specifically when he felt like slumming it or getting laid. This could explain why all three victims were picked up there, yet he was not recognised. If this was the case you'd expect there to be other conquests who never came forward, which I find hard to believe.

4) He rarely attended the dance halls, but just happened to go to the Barrowlands on these three occasions or thereabouts. Something about the victims antagonised or "triggered" him and it resulted in murder. Again it explains why he wasn't recognised, but is a huge coincidence.

5) He rarely attended the dance halls, but set out to the Barrowlands on three occasions with the intention of killing (perhaps with a couple of other failed attempts). As discussed on many occasions though, his behaviour at the cigarette machine and in the taxi does not seem (to me anyway) consistent with someone who is planning to kill.

I'm sure there are other options.

If this was a poll, my best guess would be 3 or 4.

As has been stated here, the killer had a choice of dancehalls in Glasgow.
All offering a slightly different ambience and customer profile.

He could have visited some or all of these on occasions.

If the killer was John McInnes, we have an entirely different scenario.

East Kilbride was designated a new town in 1947 and was subsequently populated by Glaswegians who found that their tenement homes were scheduled for demolition.
East Kilbride had a hugely succesful dancehall called The Olympia, and was popular with locals and people from outlying areas.
East Kilbride is located 12 miles from Stonehouse.

The town of Hamilton also had a popular dancehall called The Trocadero.
Hamilton is located 9 miles from Stonehouse.

We know that McInnes had a car, so it is entirely possible that he frequented dancehalls nearer his home.

The Barrowland is 19 miles from Stonehouse, so if the killer was John McInnes, we need to ask ourselves what advantage he would gain in travelling further afield rather than hunting his victims closer to home.

Perhaps the answer is that it was simply further from home, and possibly he perceived that the risk was reduced.

If he killed in Glasgow, the crime(s) would be investigated by City of Glasgow Police.
Crimes in Lanarkshire were investigated by Lanarkshire Constabulary, and there were very real problems in two distinct police forces working together.
Large organisations protecting their feifdom is nothing new.

If it was McInnes who murdered the three women, there were definite advantages in doing it in another geographical area from the one he lived in.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Even though they would be probably be in their eighties now. I feel there may be victims of Bible John still alive. What I mean is that I am surmising he didn't set out on any of those fateful nights to kill anyone. But when the poor ladies refused his advances, I feel he attempted to rape them and ended up , possibly they put up more of a struggle [ we know it looks like Helen escaped her killer at one point and was dragged back down an embankment ], his rage took over.
I guess what I am trying to get at is some ladies were raped and never reported it. Rape convictions are notoriously low and he could have said it was his word against there's , and if they willingly went off with him they might have felt the odds were stacked against them .
Maybe an appeal today of this nature IE Where you raped after a night out, around that time period and not just necessarily at the Barrowland or even Glasgow. If treated confidentially might illicit new information.
Barn makes a good point about other popular dance venues around in the late sixties. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bible John did move around, especially if he had use of a car.

Regards Darryl