Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Ms Diddles]

i would say bj was rather successful at picking up women from the ball room but was set off by the women who he picked up who were menstruating, whether because it blocked him from going all the way or another deep seated psychological reason. i think he had a few successful pickups before and during the murders where he was with women that werent menstruating that went ok, or at least not with murder. these were definitely murders of rage and violence, unlike the ripper. more akin to rape murderers aka control killers with a definite deep seated/subconscious problem (hatred) with women.

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

[Abby Normal]

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

well he didnt neccessarily have to be a regular. maybe several, like three or four , visits there over the years with maybe a couple visits to a different club.

of course this brings up the question. when did he stop going to the clubs and why did he stop killing?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great comments being made.

Again will have to check but in the Podcast I think Jeannie (actor) says that when she saw the picture of McInnes he looked more like Castlemilk John, her man than he did BJ. This seems a very odd but very significant statement if I have got it right.

Very odd I think

NW

Not being very computer-savvy (to put it mildly) I was wondering if you had the transcript available with your podcast NW? It would save you having to keep listening over and over again. The only problem is that it’s automatically generated and is clueless about the Scottish accents so you do have to do a bit of deciphering.

[New Waterloo]

Good point Herlock I will have a go at getting transcript
NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

I swither on this one Abby!

My inclination is to agree with you.

If three of BJs pick-ups were menstruating and ended in murder (if those two factors are indeed connected, which I think they are), there must be other instances where a "normal" hook up was orchestrated that did not result in a woman being murdered.

Against that though is the fact that BJ did not seem to be known at the Barrowlands, which he would have been had he attended regularly.

Glasgow is a big city, but in some ways it's like a village.

You do tend to bump into people you know and see folk you recognise for whatever reason.

I remember from my "clubbing years" in my 20's I would meet the same people and see the same faces all the time.

I can't help but think that if he'd been a regular people would have recognised him.

Obviously this would include his former conquests who may have had their reasons for remaining silent, but surely one of them would have recognised him and spoken up when other women were being murdered.

Agree that there is absolute rage in these murders.

Hi Ms D,

I just Google’d ‘Glasgow dancehalls 1960’s’ and it threw up Barrowlands, the Locarno (Sauchiehall Street), the Plaza (Eglinton Toll), the Albert, the Astoria, the Dennistoun Palais, the Majestic and Green’s Playhouse.

Someone in one of the articles mentions that there were a dozen or so. I’m wondering if John ‘did the rounds’ which is why he wasn’t a well known face? This would drop a huge coincidence on us though of course - that the only three times where he decided to kill (for whatever reason) were at the same dancehall.

[OneRound]

Hi Ms D,

I just Google’d ‘Glasgow dancehalls 1960’s’ and it threw up Barrowlands, the Locarno (Sauchiehall Street), the Plaza (Eglinton Toll), the Albert, the Astoria, the Dennistoun Palais, the Majestic and Green’s Playhouse.

Someone in one of the articles mentions that there were a dozen or so. I’m wondering if John ‘did the rounds’ which is why he wasn’t a well known face? This would drop a huge coincidence on us though of course - that the only three times where he decided to kill (for whatever reason) were at the same dancehall.

Hi Herlock and all,

I've wondered for a while whether Bible John had a connection with or grudge against The Barrowland ... or both.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock and all,

I've wondered for a while whether Bible John had a connection with or grudge against The Barrowland ... or both.

Best regards,
OneRound

Hi OneRound,

It’s possible that he may have seen the place as a ‘den of iniquity’ and maybe he had a personal reason for thinking it worse that the other dancehalls. He may not have used other dancehalls of course but Ms D made a very valid point that no one, as far as we know, saw the Patterson portrait and said “that looks like Fred.”

Then again, if he did just turn up only on the nights of the murders we have 23rd February 1968 then a gap of 18 months to 16th August 1969 then a gap of just of 2 months to 31st October 1969.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D,

I just Google’d ‘Glasgow dancehalls 1960’s’ and it threw up Barrowlands, the Locarno (Sauchiehall Street), the Plaza (Eglinton Toll), the Albert, the Astoria, the Dennistoun Palais, the Majestic and Green’s Playhouse.

Someone in one of the articles mentions that there were a dozen or so. I’m wondering if John ‘did the rounds’ which is why he wasn’t a well known face? This would drop a huge coincidence on us though of course - that the only three times where he decided to kill (for whatever reason) were at the same dancehall.

It's entirely possible, Herlock.

I'm stretching a bit here, but perhaps he was inclined to be more ill-disposed towards the clientèle of the Barrowlands because of It's seedier reputation (particularly in relation to "over 25's night" which seems to have been notorious for extra-marital hook ups)?

Thinking of which, if he finds it so distasteful, why did he choose to go there?

Some would say to look for victims, but my feeling has always been that the murders were more spontaneous than premeditated (of course I may be wrong here).

Or a 1960's version of Victorian "slumming"?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's entirely possible, Herlock.

I'm stretching a bit here, but perhaps he was inclined to be more ill-disposed towards the clientèle of the Barrowlands because of It's seedier reputation (particularly in relation to "over 25's night" which seems to have been notorious for extra-marital hook ups)?

Thinking of which, if he finds it so distasteful, why did he choose to go there?

Some would say to look for victims, but my feeling has always been that the murders were more spontaneous than premeditated (of course I may be wrong here).

Or a 1960's version of Victorian "slumming"?

I don’t think that you’re stretching it at all. As the Barrowlands had that seedier reputation it’s possible that the killer saw the women that went there in the same light. I recall during the Yorkshire Ripper murders the comments that were made when Jayne MacDonald was killed. She wasn’t a prostitute and so was considered by the police and many member of the public as an ‘innocent lass’ or a ‘decent girl,’ as opposed to those that resorted to prostitution for a living in the eyes of many. The idea that Jayne MacDonald had done nothing to deserve her terrible fate whereas….you know the rest. Our killer might have felt that by killing women from the Barrowlands he was less likely to kill a ‘decent’ woman (in his own eyes)?

[Ms Diddles]

I don’t think that you’re stretching it at all. As the Barrowlands had that seedier reputation it’s possible that the killer saw the women that went there in the same light. I recall during the Yorkshire Ripper murders the comments that were made when Jayne MacDonald was killed. She wasn’t a prostitute and so was considered by the police and many member of the public as an ‘innocent lass’ or a ‘decent girl,’ as opposed to those that resorted to prostitution for a living in the eyes of many. The idea that Jayne MacDonald had done nothing to deserve her terrible fate whereas….you know the rest. Our killer might have felt that by killing women from the Barrowlands he was less likely to kill a ‘decent’ woman (in his own eyes)?

Indeed, or to put it crudely, he may have gone out wanting to get his oats and figured his best chance of that was at the Barrowlands over 25's night, where the women were "easy" (and ultimately disposable).

That brings us right back to the question of whether he was a Barrowlands regular though.

I suppose there are numerous possibilities, which all have different implications and raise different questions;

1) He was a Barrowlands regular. This explains why all three victims were picked up from there, but raises questions about why he wasn't recognised (particularly if he had other conquests from among the female clientele which had not ended in murder as per Abby). Against this is his apparent disdain for the place.

2) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, and just went to the Barrowlands on occasion. This would go some way to explaining why he wasn't recognised. It was just coincidence that all three victims were picked up at the Barrowlands. Big coincidence though!

3) He attended various dance halls or was a regular at another one, but went to the Barrowlands specifically when he felt like slumming it or getting laid. This could explain why all three victims were picked up there, yet he was not recognised. If this was the case you'd expect there to be other conquests who never came forward, which I find hard to believe.

4) He rarely attended the dance halls, but just happened to go to the Barrowlands on these three occasions or thereabouts. Something about the victims antagonised or "triggered" him and it resulted in murder. Again it explains why he wasn't recognised, but is a huge coincidence.

5) He rarely attended the dance halls, but set out to the Barrowlands on three occasions with the intention of killing (perhaps with a couple of other failed attempts). As discussed on many occasions though, his behaviour at the cigarette machine and in the taxi does not seem (to me anyway) consistent with someone who is planning to kill.

I'm sure there are other options.

If this was a poll, my best guess would be 3 or 4.