Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another good synopsis, Herlock!

I would just query your statement that he already intended to kill Helen during the taxi ride.

I'm personally not certain that this was the case.

Thanks Ms D.

You’re absolutely right to pull me up on that one. I don’t know why I said it to be honest because Barn had recently been talking about the killer perhaps being triggered into killing by the discovery that the three were menstruating which I think is possible.

[cobalt]

Maybe I am in the minority in seeing little resemblance between the BJ portrait and the photo of John Templeton which was published in the Daily Record. It could be the book has photos that I have not seen.

I commented earlier on how the Templeton photo, presumably from 1967, was very typical of a 22 year old Glaswegian of that era. The hair style is still a little mid 60s but starting to become fashionably longer and with emerging sideburns. Exactly how a 'dapper' young man (as Templeton was described when older I think by Barn, who knew him) would look. By 1969 he would look a little older obviously, his hair and sideburns probably longer as was the fashion and perhaps he was considering a Zapata moustache.
Here lies the problem. All of the witnesses commented on BJ being slightly 'square' for the times with a rather formal appearance. The BJ portrait suggests his sense of fashion had ended around 1964 with a Prince Charles type hair style and no sideburns. Templeton in his photo looks a bit more 'flash' than that, a young man attuned to 'the look' of the times.

Has the author made any link between Templeton and the biblical references remembered by both Helen's sister and associates of Jemima McDonald, the second presumed victim?

Has the author been able to place Templeton as a patron of the Barrowland Ballroom? We know he met his future wife in a ballroom but that was the Majestic, by her account.

[Ms Diddles]

Thanks Ms D.

You’re absolutely right to pull me up on that one. I don’t know why I said it to be honest because Barn had recently been talking about the killer perhaps being triggered into killing by the discovery that the three were menstruating which I think is possible.

Well, it's always possible that he set out that night with the intention to kill, or it could be that something which Helen said or did triggered the murderous impulse either whilst dancing in the Barrowland or during the taxi ride.

On balance I'm inclined to think that it was something which occurred when he was alone with Helen after the taxi ride (possibly the revelation that she was menstruating that sealed her fate).

Even if we assume for a moment that all of the information which he gave out during the course of the night and during the taxi ride was completely false, the risks he ran that night were enormous:

1) Engaging not only with Helen but with Jeannie and Castlemilk John for the duration of the evening.

2) Engaging in the argument over the cigarette machine with the Barrowlands manager.

3) The taxi ride and prolonged conversation with not just Helen but Jeannie too (with the taxi driver present).

That's personally why I lean towards the murder being spontaneous.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another part of the book that stood out was on page 43. Beattie said that Alexander Hannah told him that John actually had no money and took the taxi fair from Helen. Then George Puttock said that he tracked Hannah down and was told by him that John paid the taxi and ran after Helen and he “got hold of her but she was resisting him.”

I hadn’t heard this story before unless it had slipped my mind? Can anyone else remember hearing this?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the links, Barn. I used to know a printer many years ago who owned and operated a linotype machine and showed me the basics of how it worked. They were really quite amazing machines--masterpieces of engineering.

Each to his or her own, but I still find it quite a stretch to believe that any printer would describe himself as working in a laboratory, any more than an auto mechanic or a skilled wood worker would, but I'll leave it at that.

Me too Roger. There could have been a bit of self-aggrandising going on though. Making himself sound like a scientist to impress maybe?

[rjpalmer]

4. I’m also not totally convinced about the killer giving his real name in the taxi.

Some having argued that the taxi driver never existed.

There was no such person as Bible John and Patricia Docker murder proves it - Scottish Daily Express

[rjpalmer]

This is Paterson's painting "Simon," as mentioned in the above article.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Another part of the book that stood out was on page 43. Beattie said that Alexander Hannah told him that John actually had no money and took the taxi fair from Helen. Then George Puttock said that he tracked Hannah down and was told by him that John paid the taxi and ran after Helen and he “got hold of her but she was resisting him.”

I hadn’t heard this story before unless it had slipped my mind? Can anyone else remember hearing this?

Hi Herlock, yes I remember that statement by George Puttock, but I can't remember where, I'll try and find it.
On page 91 of Paul Harrison's " Dancing With the Devil" is the comment in reference to the taxi driver, " He saw no act of violence between the pair, just a sense of annoyance from the man which he took to be a domestic quarrel."

But yes you're right, George Puttock did say that the taxi driver told him something different.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some having argued that the taxi driver never existed.

There was no such person as Bible John and Patricia Docker murder proves it - Scottish Daily Express

I noticed online that Audrey Gillan was asking if anyone knew who Nate Campbell is. It seems that he sets himself up as a ‘cold case expert’ but I don’t know if he’s any more qualified than anyone else.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, yes I remember that statement by George Puttock, but I can't remember where, I'll try and find it.
On page 91 of Paul Harrison's " Dancing With the Devil" is the comment in reference to the taxi driver, " He saw no act of violence between the pair, just a sense of annoyance from the man which he took to be a domestic quarrel."

But yes you're right, George Puttock did say that the taxi driver told him something different.

That explains it. I don’t have the Harrison book or the Stoddart one or the Samson one. None are available at the moment. I’m sy]ure that they’ll turn up for sale eventually.

[cobalt]

I think this book is selling Moonshine. Anyone who says they are '100% convinced' like this author, or like Wilson 'stakes his professional reputation' on a case like this is due a fair degree of scepticism. I am happy to provide some.

Has the author managed to establish a link between John Templeton's DNA (perhaps through family samples) and that which was found on the clothing of Helen Puttock?

Even has she done so (which I suspect she has not) is that link any stronger than the DNA link established some years ago between John McInnes' relatives and said sample which proved inconclusive? If she has done none of these then her case is little more than scientific musing.

Has she ever been able to place John Templeton at the relevant dates inside the Barrowland Ballroom? In fact, did he ever in his life cross the door?

Has she shown her photo of Templeton to bouncers, the taxi driver (who did exist obviously) and Jeannie Langford and asked for their verdict?

Has she been able to explain why the police interviewed this John Templeton (and who was nicknamed 'Bible John' at work for good measure) yet dismissed him from enquiries?

Has she provided any supporting evidence of religious mania, or even a negative attitude towards women to support her demonization of Templeton?

Has she explained why Templeton (did he have any criminal convictions?) suddenly stopped his killing spree at the grand old age of 24? (Most witnesses placed the killer in his late 20s or early 30s.)

The Bible John case is becoming a circus. We now have, depending on your preferred 'expert,' the following: young Tobin (who had no religious views) is prowling the Barrowland looking for his first victim but is jostled near the cigarette machine by McInnes (who might have quoted the bible given his background.) McInnes calls the manager whilst Castlemilk John butts in during the argument with the bouncers but it is Templeton (religious views unknown and with 'sandy' rather than 'red' hair) who ends up in the taxi with the two women. Peter Sutcliffe (who had links to Lanarkshire) was kerb crawling outside but thwarted when the taxi pulled up. He ends up in a punch up with Angus Sinclair, in his painter and decorator van, who was also on the prowl. That's about all the credence I can give to the Templeton theory unless I hear more detail from those who have digested it.

After the murder of Helen Puttock both McInnes and Templeton (both nicknamed 'Bible John' by acquaintances) were interviewed and cleared from involvement. There has been a suggestion that McInnes was being protected because of his social contacts. Are we now to believe that Templeton was being protected the same way? Would a highly regarded police detective do this on the basis of freemasonry or the old pals' act? I can't see it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think this book is selling Moonshine. Anyone who says they are '100% convinced' like this author, or like Wilson 'stakes his professional reputation' on a case like this is due a fair degree of scepticism. I am happy to provide some.

I agree that we should approach any theory with scepticism Cobalt although I don’t think that this author has overstated her case any more than most authors do when proposing a theory or a new suspect. Getting a bit ‘carried away’ is perhaps par for the course.

Has the author managed to establish a link between John Templeton's DNA (perhaps through family samples) and that which was found on the clothing of Helen Puttock?

No she hasn’t but she can’t do that without the backing of the authorities.

Even has she done so (which I suspect she has not) is that link any stronger than the DNA link established some years ago between John McInnes' relatives and said sample which proved inconclusive? If she has done none of these then her case is little more than scientific musing.

She has begun by speculating on the fact that the man with Helen Puttock might have given his real name away. John and Templeton. Then she’s found a John Templeton who matches certain criteria to an extent and who certainly looked like the Patterson painting and who happened to have a gap in his teeth at just the spot that Jeannie said that he did. Surely this makes this man of interest?

Has she ever been able to place John Templeton at the relevant dates inside the Barrowland Ballroom? In fact, did he ever in his life cross the door?

No she hasn’t, but he and his wife met in 1967 at the Majestic which is where Pat Docker told her parents that she was going the night that she was killed. The best that we can say is that if he went to the Majestic then it’s surely likely that he’d visited other dancehalls at some point?

Has she shown her photo of Templeton to bouncers, the taxi driver (who did exist obviously) and Jeannie Langford and asked for their verdict?

I’m unsure if the bouncers or the taxi driver are still around but I know that Jeannie Langford died a few years ago.

Has she been able to explain why the police interviewed this John Templeton (and who was nicknamed 'Bible John' at work for good measure) yet dismissed him from enquiries?

According to his wife June, when the police turned up, they asked if she lived with a John Templeton. She understood that the reason for the visit was because of the name and because he’d lived in Scotstoun.

Has she provided any supporting evidence of religious mania, or even a negative attitude towards women to support her demonization of Templeton?

No she hasn’t.

Has she explained why Templeton (did he have any criminal convictions?) suddenly stopped his killing spree at the grand old age of 24? (Most witnesses placed the killer in his late 20s or early 30s.)

Theres no mention or suggestion of convictions. There’s no suggestion as to why he might have stopped but we know that killers don’t always carry on. Alternatively can we be certain that there weren’t further victims at some point? And yes he does seem a little young but I don’t think unrealistically so.

The Bible John case is becoming a circus. We now have, depending on your preferred 'expert,' the following: young Tobin (who had no religious views) is prowling the Barrowland looking for his first victim but is jostled near the cigarette machine by McInnes (who might have quoted the bible given his background.) McInnes calls the manager whilst Castlemilk John butts in during the argument with the bouncers but it is Templeton (religious views unknown and with 'sandy' rather than 'red' hair) who ends up in the taxi with the two women. Peter Sutcliffe (who had links to Lanarkshire) was kerb crawling outside but thwarted when the taxi pulled up. He ends up in a punch up with Angus Sinclair, in his painter and decorator van, who was also on the prowl. That's about all the credence I can give to the Templeton theory unless I hear more detail from those who have digested it.

I wouldn’t call it a circus Cobalt any more than other cases with a few suspects and theories. These will always exist in unsolved cases.

After the murder of Helen Puttock both McInnes and Templeton (both nicknamed 'Bible John' by acquaintances) were interviewed and cleared from involvement. There has been a suggestion that McInnes was being protected because of his social contacts. Are we now to believe that Templeton was being protected the same way? Would a highly regarded police detective do this on the basis of freemasonry or the old pals' act? I can't see it.

I can’t recall where Templeton was said to have been nicknamed Bible John?

[cobalt]

HS,

Thanks for your cogent replies.

The DNA link seems no more than conjecture. As for teeth missing, often Scots in the 1960s had teeth extracted before the age of 40 to save further dental costs as my parents did. Scots have possibly the worst teeth in the entire world: when I visited a dentist in China she looked in my mouth and gasped in disbelief. A missing tooth was, and probably still is, commonplace amongst otherwise healthy Scots.

I would take issue with the idea of The Majestic and the Barrowland being interchangeable as places to go and meet up with women. Patricia Docker seemed aware of this distinction and rather like pubs, there are certain ones we frequent and others to be avoided. We know that McInnes did go there (he reportedly admitted being there the night of the Puttock murder) and we even know that Tobin did as well. But not Templeton. So if the author can't place Templeton inside the Barrowland on the basis of friends or relatives confirming that he went there, then her argument seems thin.

I appreciate the limitations the author was working under - no access to police records and witnesses dying off - so her focus on DNA as a magic bullet will have to be scrutinised by those more versed in that area than me.

Templeton being nicknamed 'Bible John' was information supplied on this very site by Barn, who knew Templeton at least by sight and also some library staff who worked alongside him. So it is pretty reliable, I think.

[rjpalmer]

the taxi driver (who did exist obviously)

Perhaps he did exist, but even in Audrey Gillan's podcast he is a remarkably shadowy figure. One would think such an importance witness would be called by his name, such as George Hutchinson, or Mrs. Elizabeth Long, or Israel Schwartz. Gillan, if I recall, mention his name in passing, but he seems to be mainly absent.

Most accounts, even longish accounts, only refer to him as "the taxi driver."

[Herlock Sholmes]

HS,

Thanks for your cogent replies.

The DNA link seems no more than conjecture. As for teeth missing, often Scots in the 1960s had teeth extracted before the age of 40 to save further dental costs as my parents did. Scots have possibly the worst teeth in the entire world: when I visited a dentist in China she looked in my mouth and gasped in disbelief. A missing tooth was, and probably still is, commonplace amongst otherwise healthy Scots.

I would take issue with the idea of The Majestic and the Barrowland being interchangeable as places to go and meet up with women. Patricia Docker seemed aware of this distinction and rather like pubs, there are certain ones we frequent and others to be avoided. We know that McInnes did go there (he reportedly admitted being there the night of the Puttock murder) and we even know that Tobin did as well. But not Templeton. So if the author can't place Templeton inside the Barrowland on the basis of friends or relatives confirming that he went there, then her argument seems thin.

I appreciate the limitations the author was working under - no access to police records and witnesses dying off - so her focus on DNA as a magic bullet will have to be scrutinised by those more versed in that area than me.

Templeton being nicknamed 'Bible John' was information supplied on this very site by Barn, who knew Templeton at least by sight and also some library staff who worked alongside him. So it is pretty reliable, I think.

I’d forgotten that Templeton being nicknamed Bible John came from Barn although I don’t know how I managed to forget it and I certainly accept that there was a difference between the Majestic and the Barrowland in that the Majestic was seen as a more respectable establishment. I also accept your point about the missing tooth Cobalt but I’d still put it as a plus point. Jeannie was quite specific about the location of a single missing tooth and so to find that Templeton had the same tooth missing is interesting although not a slam dunk.