Madeleine McCann

[Darryl Kenyon]

Ah, I've just read this one, cobalt, which does suggest that the patio door was unlocked. It is shocking to me that Kate could possibly have wondered what would be the better of those two options, if Madeleine woke up for the second night running to find her Mum and Dad not there, while failing to see the only safe option, of not leaving the kids alone at all. All very well if they did plan to make regular checks, but no earthly good to a child who wakes up between checks and is immediately distressed.

But what it also suggests is that IF Gerry had had any knowledge of what happened, he'd have made the most of the unlocked patio door and stuck with that version from the start, to allow for an intruder to have entered and left that way. There would have been no advantage to claim both doors had been locked if they were not.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
I am going to have to disagree here. If Gerry Mcann said originally that both doors were locked. I think he quickly realised the very possible chance of charges, or accusations of neglect being made . Thus self preservation kicked in . He was probably still hoping that Madeline would be found quite quickly. And when that didn't happen he had to tell the truth .

Part of Fiona Payne's statement regarding the unlocked patio door which Cobalt uploaded
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'.

Regards Darryl

[caz]

It just struck me...

If Kate expressed the thought that if Madeleine woke up again she could "get out [via the unlocked patio door] and find us", it is still hard to understand why, when the worst happened and she found her child's bed empty, her first thought was that she had been abducted. That thought had apparently not even occurred to her when wondering earlier that evening if it was better for the apartment to be locked or unlocked. This was all based on the possibility of Madeleine waking up again and whether or not she would try and get out.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Once again I have to stand corrected. There WAS a brief discussion about the merits of leaving the McCann's patio door unlocked - between Kate McCann and Fiona Payne. By a grim coincidence this conversation took place on the Thursday, within an hour of Madeleine McCann later being discovered missing. Fiona Payne commented on the light hearted atmosphere at the Tapas table that evening but Kate McCann seemed deeper in her thoughts. Mrs. McCann first described how Madeleine had the previous evening woken to find her self unattended, then she moved on to ask advice about the patio door being left unlocked. Fiona Payne does not seem to have offered any advice in response.

''1485
'What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that''

Reply
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

1485
'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''

Reply
'Yeah'.

1485
'Did she say whether she had locked or''

Reply
'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'.

1485
'Left the patio''

Reply
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation.''

Ah, I've just read this one, cobalt, which does suggest that the patio door was unlocked. It is shocking to me that Kate could possibly have wondered what would be the better of those two options, if Madeleine woke up for the second night running to find her Mum and Dad not there, while failing to see the only safe option, of not leaving the kids alone at all. All very well if they did plan to make regular checks, but no earthly good to a child who wakes up between checks and is immediately distressed.

But what it also suggests is that IF Gerry had had any knowledge of what happened, he'd have made the most of the unlocked patio door and stuck with that version from the start, to allow for an intruder to have entered and left that way. There would have been no advantage to claim both doors had been locked if they were not.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

'What evidence do you have that Murat was a 'dodgy character', or was considered to be one?'

I'll be careful what I say since Murat was awarded damages by UK newspapers for suggesting he was a dodgy character! It was actually a UK journalist acting on gut instinct who drew Murat to the attention of the PJ when he was reluctant to be photographed. Some of the Tapas group then told police they had seen Murat around the complex on the night of the disappearance although Murat claimed to have been inside his house, about 100 yards away, with his mother all evening. The UK media then began finding former 'friends' testifying to Murat's sexual deviancy. The PJ were obliged to follow these suspicions and dug up bits of his garden and drained a bathing pool, but nothing came of it.

The UK media have a lot to answer for, conjuring up unidentified 'pals', or 'former friends', when they need an unsavoury angle to sell papers. People do sometimes talk for money about a former friend or colleague, but it's still hearsay, and too often the refusal to name sources allows immoral journalists to make stuff up with no comeback. Few claimants have thousands and thousands of pounds spare to take a newspaper to court, so the best Robert Murat might have hoped for if he sought to undo the damage was an out-of-court settlement, if he didn't mind having his personal life raked over and the public thinking the worst of him anyway. It's bad enough when the maligned person is a celebrity, but beyond despicable when it happens to an ordinary citizen, as I hope you would agree.

'Absolutely, cobalt, but isn't it your belief that both doors were locked?'

On balance, I think that is most likely the case. No other members left their apartments unlocked; two of the group claimed to have checked inside the McCann apartment via the patio doors yet this odd arrangement was never apparently a matter of discussion. Which is odd since the Tapas group, according to their own testimony were, prior to the disappearance, quick to offer their opinion on matters such as paedophilia and child care arrangements to outsiders. And purely for the purpose of argument: leaving the children out of the equation for a moment, I find it hard to believe that a fellow Scot like Gerry McCann would leave an apartment containing presumably money and passports unlocked.

Is it known that there was no safe in the apartment, in which to lock passports and currency and so on? This has been standard practice for many a long year in most places I have stayed at home and abroad. So while Gerry would arguably not have left any valuables in plain sight, whether or not all the doors and windows were locked whenever they went out, we know he left all three of his young children in their beds, in plain view of any determined intruder.

I still don't buy that Gerry - or an intruder for that matter - would have stupidly locked both doors behind him after leaving with Madeleine. If the window wasn't used, as you insist, it would surely have been obvious even to Inspector Clouseau that whoever locked those doors must have removed the child first, and no intruder would have done that. It would have been curtains - not blinds [sorry] - for Gerry.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fantomas]

Why would they 'speak out', after all this time? What would you expect them to say, and what would satisfy you that they knew no more than what they said at the time?

In short, what have they to gain from opening old wounds and feeding suspicious minds?

Love,

Caz
X

Any group who truly were in on the fringes of a truly missing child case would never shut up about it, I wouldn't. In my profession as a college lecturer, I am still asked for and volunteer information on a plagiarism scandal, still unsolved, from the late 1990s. This is supposed to be about a missing child. Their silence speaks volumes - and what I surmise isn't pleasant.

[cobalt]

Once again I have to stand corrected. There WAS a brief discussion about the merits of leaving the McCann's patio door unlocked - between Kate McCann and Fiona Payne. By a grim coincidence this conversation took place on the Thursday, within an hour of Madeleine McCann later being discovered missing. Fiona Payne commented on the light hearted atmosphere at the Tapas table that evening but Kate McCann seemed deeper in her thoughts. Mrs. McCann first described how Madeleine had the previous evening woken to find her self unattended, then she moved on to ask advice about the patio door being left unlocked. Fiona Payne does not seem to have offered any advice in response.

''1485
'What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that''

Reply
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

1485
'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''

Reply
'Yeah'.

1485
'Did she say whether she had locked or''

Reply
'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'.

1485
'Left the patio''

Reply
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation.''

[cobalt]

'What evidence do you have that Murat was a 'dodgy character', or was considered to be one?'
I'll be careful what I say since Murat was awarded damages by UK newspapers for suggesting he was a dodgy character! It was actually a UK journalist acting on gut instinct who drew Murat to the attention of the PJ when he was reluctant to be photographed. Some of the Tapas group then told police they had seen Murat around the complex on the night of the disappearance although Murat claimed to have been inside his house, about 100 yards away, with his mother all evening. The UK media then began finding former 'friends' testifying to Murat's sexual deviancy. The PJ were obliged to follow these suspicions and dug up bits of his garden and drained a bathing pool, but nothing came of it.

'Absolutely, cobalt, but isn't it your belief that both doors were locked?'
On balance, I think that is most likely the case. No other members left their apartments unlocked; two of the group claimed to have checked inside the McCann apartment via the patio doors yet this odd arrangement was never apparently a matter of discussion. Which is odd since the Tapas group, according to their own testimony were, prior to the disappearance, quick to offer their opinion on matters such as paedophilia and child care arrangements to outsiders. And purely for the purpose of argument: leaving the children out of the equation for a moment, I find it hard to believe that a fellow Scot like Gerry McCann would leave an apartment containing presumably money and passports unlocked.

'not only that, even if he did look out the window to see if the coast was clear, he wouldnt have opened the window itself, just the blinds.'
That would make sense but carried a risk. Raising the shutters was reportedly quite a noisy operation and would have risked waking children and drawing the attention of anyone coming round the corner. Having established the coast was clear, he then took the trouble to close the blinds before leaving, which meant more noise.

[Abby Normal]

If the McCanns were the only parents who failed to secure their apartment, it would not be a leap of logic to suggest that this was how their daughter became a target. Her abductor could have tried other apartments first, before finding the patio doors unlocked. This would have avoided any need to try and enter - or exit - via the window, which is why I don't think it was used for anything but a quick check for anyone outside or close by when he was ready to leave with Madeleine.

No intruder is going to break in, or choose a harder or riskier option, if they are presented with the gift of an unlocked door.

Love,

Caz
X

bingo caz.
not only that, even if he did look out the window to see if the coast was clear, he wouldnt have opened the window itself, just the blinds.

[caz]

I believe that and am with the PJ in thinking the Tapas 7 statements to be full of more holes than a swiss cheese. Why don't any of the Tapas 7 speak out still?

Why would they 'speak out', after all this time? What would you expect them to say, and what would satisfy you that they knew no more than what they said at the time?

In short, what have they to gain from opening old wounds and feeding suspicious minds?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

As for exiting through the window, the PJ re-enacted this scenario and found it extremely difficult for an adult to do, particularly when carrying a child. Since the patio door was unlocked it is hard to fathom why any abductor would attempt such a manoeuvre.

Absolutely, cobalt, but isn't it your belief that both doors were locked?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Leaving the patio door unlocked was how the McCanns did things. Oldfield had left his children alone as well but they had secured the apartment. I cant tell how he thought but in hindsight he probably wishes he did say something. But then if the perp entered through the window- what's the difference?

If the McCanns were the only parents who failed to secure their apartment, it would not be a leap of logic to suggest that this was how their daughter became a target. Her abductor could have tried other apartments first, before finding the patio doors unlocked. This would have avoided any need to try and enter - or exit - via the window, which is why I don't think it was used for anything but a quick check for anyone outside or close by when he was ready to leave with Madeleine.

No intruder is going to break in, or choose a harder or riskier option, if they are presented with the gift of an unlocked door.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

'Murrell' should read 'Murat.' Apologies to SNP supporters.

So when you posted: 'Every dodgy character living nearby- which included Murrell it seems...' you meant to write Murat?

What evidence do you have that Murat was a 'dodgy character', or was considered to be one?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fantomas]

There are, therefore, no grounds for suspicion, unless you believe that the parents who were seen leaving the table did so for a purpose other than that stated by them, and also that they were all part of a conspiracy to cover up the truth about what happened to Madeleine McCann.

I believe that and am with the PJ in thinking the Tapas 7 statements to be full of more holes than a swiss cheese. Why don't any of the Tapas 7 speak out still?

[Fantomas]

The Tapas group don't seem to talk to the press at all now. If hush money was used, is there evidence of this?

[cobalt]

The Tapas alcohol consumption estimate ranges from 6 bottles of wine per evening courtesy of those present to 14 bottles per session according to one (unnamed) waiter quoted in the tabloids. Since the wine was included in the price of the holiday the truth is likely to be somewhere in between, except the Wednesday evening which both Jane Tanner and David Payne remember as being more of a boozing session. This was not the evening of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance as I stated earlier, but rather the evening prior to that, the one where she woke crying and discovered her parents were not in the apartment.

Tanner:
4078 “And you know you had said on the Wednesday, I think it was the Wednesday night, yeah, you said that you had stayed later and had more to drink than the previous nights?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Do you remember sort of roughly how much you’d had?”
Reply “No, I mean, we weren’t, you know, I mean, we weren’t sort of like roaring drunk, it wasn’t. Erm, but I think just because we’d been there longer we probably had, I mean, I’d say I’d probably had four glasses of wine and then maybe the, I think at the end, I can’t remember what sort of a liqueur at the end, so”.
4078 “That is not a lot in the course of the evening?”
Reply “No, I mean, over the, it wasn’t, it wasn’t loads, but, I mean, it was probably more than other nights probably”.

Payne:
Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar after which was the only night that we, you know we did that,

‘But then if the perp entered through the window- what's the difference?’
There’s no ‘if’ about it: no one entered through the window. Forcing the shutters from outside may have been possible but it was impossible to do so without leaving clear evidence of this. That’s before the PJ dusted the window for fingerprints and found only Kate McCann’s, and noted the absence of any footmarks on bedding directly below the window. As for exiting through the window, the PJ re-enacted this scenario and found it extremely difficult for an adult to do, particularly when carrying a child. Since the patio door was unlocked it is hard to fathom why any abductor would attempt such a manoeuvre.