Madeleine McCann

[cobalt]

'What evidence do you have that Murat was a 'dodgy character', or was considered to be one?'
I'll be careful what I say since Murat was awarded damages by UK newspapers for suggesting he was a dodgy character! It was actually a UK journalist acting on gut instinct who drew Murat to the attention of the PJ when he was reluctant to be photographed. Some of the Tapas group then told police they had seen Murat around the complex on the night of the disappearance although Murat claimed to have been inside his house, about 100 yards away, with his mother all evening. The UK media then began finding former 'friends' testifying to Murat's sexual deviancy. The PJ were obliged to follow these suspicions and dug up bits of his garden and drained a bathing pool, but nothing came of it.

'Absolutely, cobalt, but isn't it your belief that both doors were locked?'
On balance, I think that is most likely the case. No other members left their apartments unlocked; two of the group claimed to have checked inside the McCann apartment via the patio doors yet this odd arrangement was never apparently a matter of discussion. Which is odd since the Tapas group, according to their own testimony were, prior to the disappearance, quick to offer their opinion on matters such as paedophilia and child care arrangements to outsiders. And purely for the purpose of argument: leaving the children out of the equation for a moment, I find it hard to believe that a fellow Scot like Gerry McCann would leave an apartment containing presumably money and passports unlocked.

'not only that, even if he did look out the window to see if the coast was clear, he wouldnt have opened the window itself, just the blinds.'
That would make sense but carried a risk. Raising the shutters was reportedly quite a noisy operation and would have risked waking children and drawing the attention of anyone coming round the corner. Having established the coast was clear, he then took the trouble to close the blinds before leaving, which meant more noise.

[Abby Normal]

If the McCanns were the only parents who failed to secure their apartment, it would not be a leap of logic to suggest that this was how their daughter became a target. Her abductor could have tried other apartments first, before finding the patio doors unlocked. This would have avoided any need to try and enter - or exit - via the window, which is why I don't think it was used for anything but a quick check for anyone outside or close by when he was ready to leave with Madeleine.

No intruder is going to break in, or choose a harder or riskier option, if they are presented with the gift of an unlocked door.

Love,

Caz
X

bingo caz.
not only that, even if he did look out the window to see if the coast was clear, he wouldnt have opened the window itself, just the blinds.

[caz]

I believe that and am with the PJ in thinking the Tapas 7 statements to be full of more holes than a swiss cheese. Why don't any of the Tapas 7 speak out still?

Why would they 'speak out', after all this time? What would you expect them to say, and what would satisfy you that they knew no more than what they said at the time?

In short, what have they to gain from opening old wounds and feeding suspicious minds?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

As for exiting through the window, the PJ re-enacted this scenario and found it extremely difficult for an adult to do, particularly when carrying a child. Since the patio door was unlocked it is hard to fathom why any abductor would attempt such a manoeuvre.

Absolutely, cobalt, but isn't it your belief that both doors were locked?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Leaving the patio door unlocked was how the McCanns did things. Oldfield had left his children alone as well but they had secured the apartment. I cant tell how he thought but in hindsight he probably wishes he did say something. But then if the perp entered through the window- what's the difference?

If the McCanns were the only parents who failed to secure their apartment, it would not be a leap of logic to suggest that this was how their daughter became a target. Her abductor could have tried other apartments first, before finding the patio doors unlocked. This would have avoided any need to try and enter - or exit - via the window, which is why I don't think it was used for anything but a quick check for anyone outside or close by when he was ready to leave with Madeleine.

No intruder is going to break in, or choose a harder or riskier option, if they are presented with the gift of an unlocked door.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

'Murrell' should read 'Murat.' Apologies to SNP supporters.

So when you posted: 'Every dodgy character living nearby- which included Murrell it seems...' you meant to write Murat?

What evidence do you have that Murat was a 'dodgy character', or was considered to be one?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fantomas]

There are, therefore, no grounds for suspicion, unless you believe that the parents who were seen leaving the table did so for a purpose other than that stated by them, and also that they were all part of a conspiracy to cover up the truth about what happened to Madeleine McCann.

I believe that and am with the PJ in thinking the Tapas 7 statements to be full of more holes than a swiss cheese. Why don't any of the Tapas 7 speak out still?

[Fantomas]

The Tapas group don't seem to talk to the press at all now. If hush money was used, is there evidence of this?

[cobalt]

The Tapas alcohol consumption estimate ranges from 6 bottles of wine per evening courtesy of those present to 14 bottles per session according to one (unnamed) waiter quoted in the tabloids. Since the wine was included in the price of the holiday the truth is likely to be somewhere in between, except the Wednesday evening which both Jane Tanner and David Payne remember as being more of a boozing session. This was not the evening of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance as I stated earlier, but rather the evening prior to that, the one where she woke crying and discovered her parents were not in the apartment.

Tanner:
4078 “And you know you had said on the Wednesday, I think it was the Wednesday night, yeah, you said that you had stayed later and had more to drink than the previous nights?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Do you remember sort of roughly how much you’d had?”
Reply “No, I mean, we weren’t, you know, I mean, we weren’t sort of like roaring drunk, it wasn’t. Erm, but I think just because we’d been there longer we probably had, I mean, I’d say I’d probably had four glasses of wine and then maybe the, I think at the end, I can’t remember what sort of a liqueur at the end, so”.
4078 “That is not a lot in the course of the evening?”
Reply “No, I mean, over the, it wasn’t, it wasn’t loads, but, I mean, it was probably more than other nights probably”.

Payne:
Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar after which was the only night that we, you know we did that,

‘But then if the perp entered through the window- what's the difference?’
There’s no ‘if’ about it: no one entered through the window. Forcing the shutters from outside may have been possible but it was impossible to do so without leaving clear evidence of this. That’s before the PJ dusted the window for fingerprints and found only Kate McCann’s, and noted the absence of any footmarks on bedding directly below the window. As for exiting through the window, the PJ re-enacted this scenario and found it extremely difficult for an adult to do, particularly when carrying a child. Since the patio door was unlocked it is hard to fathom why any abductor would attempt such a manoeuvre.

[Fantomas]

The only evidence we have that 'checks' took place comes from the Tapas group. Some of the workers at the complex remembered seeing parents leaving the table, others had no recollection of this happening. The intervals between these checks, which apart from the one undertaken by Matthew Oldfield at 9.30 were exclusively on the parents' own children, was anything from 15 minutes to one hour depending on the witness. Given that a fair amount of alcohol was being consumed by the group then, even with the best of intentions, the figure of one hour would probably be nearer the mark.

When Oldfield was questioned in the UK he gave a detailed account of how his own apartment was locked and he had to enter by use of a key when checking on his children. Yet when Kate McCann told him at 9.30pm that the her sliding patio door was unlocked he did not seem in the slightest surprised or offer any kind of comment.

Not all of the Tapas group were at the table from 8.30pm until 10pm. O'Brien and Tanner were required at various times to stay in their apartment since one of the children had been physically sick. This was an unfortunate feature of the holiday; a number of the group fell ill on separate evenings.

To turn to the grim prospect of disposing of a child's body, this remains a serious stumbling block whatever your line of argument. To do so without a car and local knowledge would be extremely difficult and so far as we can gather the Tapas group had neither of these. A local with access to transport has an advantage there without a doubt but the chances of a body remaining undiscovered for many years later are very slim.

If you had a rich pal and benefactor nearby, with local knowledge and a car, like, I don't know Clement Freud, that could be arranged.

[FrankO]

FrankO,

O’Brien’s claim of his check inside the McCann apartment bolsters the narrative of abduction by a stranger. It has to be read in conjunction with Oldfield’s statement which it is intended to support.

The Oldfield check inside the McCann apartment at 9.30 was problematic for the PJ who pressed Oldfield on his statement to the extent that he broke down and became tearful when inside the police station. O’Brien’s claim of parents checking on other family’s children makes Oldfield’s 9.30pm check seem less of a ‘black swan’ moment and more part of an established routine.

O’Brien’s statement also supports Oldfield’s claim that the McCanns left their patio sliding door unlocked.

Taken at face value, the O’Brien and Oldfield statements reveal the McCanns as being outliers in two regards. They were recipients of good neighbourliness but did not return the favour by checking on other family’s children. Most importantly, they alone left their apartment unlocked.

While this may all be true, Cobalt, the bottom line would remain that, if they are all supposed to have been in on covering up something, they, as a group, did a rather lousy job. In fact, inconsistencies like these would raise eyebrows and suspicions rather than divert them away from the group and the McCanns in particular.

[Sunny Delight]

'Alcohol consumption and duration between checks is a red herring. Define a fair amount? And how that amount then can be compared to the amount that table had?'

The best definition came from a member of the Tapas group who said in a statement that more alcohol had been consumed on the evening Madeleine McCann disappeared than on other evenings.

'It was not for Matthew Oldfield to question the McCanns about their parental skills.'

I assume that would not have extended to remaining mute had Gerry McCann clattered his young children around the head with his tennis racquet. Which, as it turned out, would have caused less damage than an alleged unlocked door.

'So there was a bug going around? Hardly unusual with young kids.'

This was an unusual bug since it affected quite a few of the adults as well, if their statements are to be believed. The adults seem to have recovered after 24 hours, at which point another adult was afflicted. Yet it did not seem to dampen their enjoyment of the holiday according to their statements.

'So if the chances of a local with transport and knowledge of the area disposing of a body still unfound years later is very slim what chance did the McCanns have?'

Even slimmer, if they had no local assistance.

Can you provide the quote in regards extra alcohol consumption. That is even more of a reason for inconsistencies if a bit of alcohol is consumed. From what I have read there was not a particularly large consumption by the group. Not sure what it's relevance is anyways.

Well being physically abusive towards children would likely generate a reaction from friends. Leaving the patio door unlocked was how the McCanns did things. Oldfield had left his children alone as well but they had secured the apartment. I cant tell how he thought but in hindsight he probably wishes he did say something. But then if the perp entered through the window- what's the difference?

A 24 hr b2g is far from unusual and of course highly contagious.

Exactly. For proponents of the parents did it theory there is no realistic theory on how the parents hid the body.

[cobalt]

'Alcohol consumption and duration between checks is a red herring. Define a fair amount? And how that amount then can be compared to the amount that table had?'

The best definition came from a member of the Tapas group who said in a statement that more alcohol had been consumed on the evening Madeleine McCann disappeared than on other evenings.

'It was not for Matthew Oldfield to question the McCanns about their parental skills.'

I assume that would not have extended to remaining mute had Gerry McCann clattered his young children around the head with his tennis racquet. Which, as it turned out, would have caused less damage than an alleged unlocked door.

'So there was a bug going around? Hardly unusual with young kids.'

This was an unusual bug since it affected quite a few of the adults as well, if their statements are to be believed. The adults seem to have recovered after 24 hours, at which point another adult was afflicted. Yet it did not seem to dampen their enjoyment of the holiday according to their statements.

'So if the chances of a local with transport and knowledge of the area disposing of a body still unfound years later is very slim what chance did the McCanns have?'

Even slimmer, if they had no local assistance.

[cobalt]

'Inconsistency actually gives the impression of truth.'
I wouldn’t try that line of argument inside a police interrogation room. Minor inconsistencies like times and who was playing whom at tennis would certainly be expected. But only the credulous could ever believe that a man had the key to check on two children inside your apartment and neither your wife were aware of this fact. The PJ were not credulous.

At the end of the day if the whole group concocted a story and cover up they didn't do a very good job.
Good enough for the UK media, which is admittedly a very low bar. Their problem lay in squaring a circle. As ‘good parents’ they had to pretend they were checking every 15 minutes or so but the narrower the time gap between checks, the less was the likelihood of an abduction, planned or otherwise.

[cobalt]

FrankO,

O’Brien’s claim of his check inside the McCann apartment bolsters the narrative of abduction by a stranger. It has to be read in conjunction with Oldfield’s statement which it is intended to support.

The Oldfield check inside the McCann apartment at 9.30 was problematic for the PJ who pressed Oldfield on his statement to the extent that he broke down and became tearful when inside the police station. O’Brien’s claim of parents checking on other family’s children makes Oldfield’s 9.30pm check seem less of a ‘black swan’ moment and more part of an established routine.

O’Brien’s statement also supports Oldfield’s claim that the McCanns left their patio sliding door unlocked.

Taken at face value, the O’Brien and Oldfield statements reveal the McCanns as being outliers in two regards. They were recipients of good neighbourliness but did not return the favour by checking on other family’s children. Most importantly, they alone left their apartment unlocked.