Madeleine McCann

[Sunny Delight]

''Despite everything being presented to you in regards the window and the fact it did open from outside you appear totally resistant to it. That is your perogative. No point going over old ground,'

Old ground? are you serious? Even the McCanns abandoned the window theory once it was exposed as nonsense. The window did not open from the outside anymore than the sun revolves around the earth. The window was discounted as a means of entry from day one, hence the unlocked door backup from the Tapas group. Please keep up. Whether the window was capable of being 'jemmied' or the like without leaving evidence was irrelevant in this particular case since no forensic evidence was found to support this theory. It was a dead end which led to an uncomfortable line of enquiry.

Which takes us back to the most likely line of enquiry when a child goes missing: the parents themselves. No fairy stories about phantom abductors; no fairy stories about paedophiles or a girl who waked and wandered; just the obvious.

The shutters could be opened from the outside. Not the whole way but far enough so that if the window was open it could be slid across and by entering ones hand through the window manipulate the shutter controls to full open. I have already posted a video showing someone doing this. You are sticking to something proven to be erroneous. Why?

Parents will always be prime suspects and Police procedure in that instance is to investigate them first. Everyone knows that. Not one scintilla of evidence was ever produced to suspect the McCanns. With hindsight it was clearly an overworked Police force under extreme pressure fixating on the parents when all other avenues had seemingly been exhausted. There was no thought that the PJ themselves had made a complete mess of the investigation. Such a mess in fact that they claimed DNA that didn't exist and lied to journalists about the nature of their evidence against the McCanns. For goodness sake they didn't even identify the man seen by Jane Tanner when all they had to do was fully investigate everyone whose child had been at the night creche that night, meaning of course for 5 years the man seen by Tanner was the prime suspect.

[FrankO]

Old ground? are you serious? Even the McCanns abandoned the window theory once it was exposed as nonsense. The window did not open from the outside anymore than the sun revolves around the earth. The window was discounted as a means of entry from day one, hence the unlocked door backup from the Tapas group. Please keep up. Whether the window was capable of being 'jemmied' or the like without leaving evidence was irrelevant in this particular case since no forensic evidence was found to support this theory. It was a dead end which led to an uncomfortable line of enquiry.

No Cobalt, what we actually have is shutters that could be opened from the outside which would leave no trace if done with gloved hands and a back door left unlocked, the latter clearly being stated by both McCanns in their statements of May 4th. That's what we have (to deal with). All the rest is interpretation according to personal sense of logic, experience, gut feeling and what not.

Which takes us back to the most likely line of enquiry when a child goes missing: the parents themselves. No fairy stories about phantom abductors; no fairy stories about paedophiles or a girl who waked and wandered; just the obvious.

Which is obvious only to your personal sense of logic, experience, gut feeling and what not. It certainly isn't the obvious. Had that been the case, then we wouldn't still be discussing it.

[Abby Normal]

It is obvious that the parents had no opportunity to conceal and dispose of the body.

i dont think they did, but they had over two hours opportunity to if they did.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

''Despite everything being presented to you in regards the window and the fact it did open from outside you appear totally resistant to it. That is your perogative. No point going over old ground,'

Old ground? are you serious? Even the McCanns abandoned the window theory once it was exposed as nonsense. The window did not open from the outside anymore than the sun revolves around the earth. The window was discounted as a means of entry from day one, hence the unlocked door backup from the Tapas group. Please keep up. Whether the window was capable of being 'jemmied' or the like without leaving evidence was irrelevant in this particular case since no forensic evidence was found to support this theory. It was a dead end which led to an uncomfortable line of enquiry.

Which takes us back to the most likely line of enquiry when a child goes missing: the parents themselves. No fairy stories about phantom abductors; no fairy stories about paedophiles or a girl who waked and wandered; just the obvious.

It is obvious that the parents had no opportunity to conceal and dispose of the body.

[cobalt]

''Despite everything being presented to you in regards the window and the fact it did open from outside you appear totally resistant to it. That is your perogative. No point going over old ground,'

Old ground? are you serious? Even the McCanns abandoned the window theory once it was exposed as nonsense. The window did not open from the outside anymore than the sun revolves around the earth. The window was discounted as a means of entry from day one, hence the unlocked door backup from the Tapas group. Please keep up. Whether the window was capable of being 'jemmied' or the like without leaving evidence was irrelevant in this particular case since no forensic evidence was found to support this theory. It was a dead end which led to an uncomfortable line of enquiry.

Which takes us back to the most likely line of enquiry when a child goes missing: the parents themselves. No fairy stories about phantom abductors; no fairy stories about paedophiles or a girl who waked and wandered; just the obvious.

[Sunny Delight]

'it's hardly anything untoward that someone invited their mum on holidays.'

In UK culture I would say it was unusual to do so. No other couple apart from the Paynes invited a parent to accompany them.

'Again this is a point that is totally illogical suggesting all the children in one room.'

It makes sense if the adults were organising their holiday around a drinking session at the Tapas bar every evening. The Paynes' apartment was bigger than the others.

'That's certainly a new one. Madeleine died at the hands of one of their friends.'

She may have died when in the company of an adult but I certainly never suggested that she died 'at their hands.'

'Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.'

Because neither the window nor the shutter were open when the police arrived. It was impossible to open the shutter from outside and illogical for any intruder to do so from inside. The bed Madeleine McCann normally slept in did not seem to have been slept in, and the first police to arrive suspected that the scene had been staged. The only forensic evidence that could be retrieved showed that no one had entered or exited through the window, therefore the PJ reached the conclusion that an attempt had been made to mislead them.

It may be a little unusual but hardly anything to write home about.

No it makes zero sense. It is illogical and I don't recall anyone, anywhere even suggesting it as a possibility before so far out is it. I suppose the McCanns lifted the twins from the Paynes at 10pm to stage the scene only to transfer them back a few hours later during the commotion.

Ok thanks for clarifying. So what did this person do when confronted with the fact that Madeleine was dead? Because they faced the same issues that the McCanns would have faced if they had done it. Almost impossible to overcome.

Despite everything being presented to you in regards the window and the fact it did open from outside you appear totally resistant to it. That is your perogative. No point going over old ground.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.

For the same reason that people found it hard to believe that Lindy Chamberlain saw a dingo take her child and that Herbert Wallace innocently found his wife dead when he returned home one evening.

There is a natural tendency to believe the worst about innocent people - and that includes Druitt, Lechmere and Kosminski - and to believe those in authority - including Goncarlo Amaral and Sir Robert Anderson - even when they are not telling the truth.

[cobalt]

'it's hardly anything untoward that someone invited their mum on holidays.'

In UK culture I would say it was unusual to do so. No other couple apart from the Paynes invited a parent to accompany them.

'Again this is a point that is totally illogical suggesting all the children in one room.'

It makes sense if the adults were organising their holiday around a drinking session at the Tapas bar every evening. The Paynes' apartment was bigger than the others.

'That's certainly a new one. Madeleine died at the hands of one of their friends.'

She may have died when in the company of an adult but I certainly never suggested that she died 'at their hands.'

'Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.'

Because neither the window nor the shutter were open when the police arrived. It was impossible to open the shutter from outside and illogical for any intruder to do so from inside. The bed Madeleine McCann normally slept in did not seem to have been slept in, and the first police to arrive suspected that the scene had been staged. The only forensic evidence that could be retrieved showed that no one had entered or exited through the window, therefore the PJ reached the conclusion that an attempt had been made to mislead them.

[Sunny Delight]

I take on board Caz's reluctance to be invited on a holiday to be detailed as permanent baby sitter. But very few few couples in their mid to late thirties would invite a mother along to be anything else. Why was the matronly character that was Diane Webster such an integral part of this holiday of younger couples, whose humour as recorded rarely seems to have risen above the level of puerile? Why was she there?

The baby monitor for me is significant. Only the Payne family had such a device, which at present day prices can be had for around £30. So why did none of the other Tapas group invest in this reasonably cheap device? Could it be that all the children had been shepherded into one room and the monitor was judged sufficient? There may even have been an adult in the room as well, on a rota basis, with easy audio contact to the Tapas bar.

The McCanns were very open about their child negligence and have ben lambasted for that naturally. But it may be they were actually guilty of no such thing, and that their daughter died when being supervised by another adult.

What a bizarre notion. The grandmother was on holiday too, why would you pay for a holiday to be a babysitter? Of course maybe offering a night or two but come on it's hardly anything untoward that someone invited their mum on holidays. Or maybe she invited herself. Who knows? It's a completely irrelevant point anyways.

Baby monitoring devices in 2007 were not completely reliable. Not like today's technology. One couple had a listening device. The others didn't and instead checked their respective rooms once the children were sleeping. Again this is a point that is totally illogical suggesting all the children in one room.

That's certainly a new one. Madeleine died at the hands of one of their friends.

Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.

[FrankO]

Read this bloke's post:





Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

Other than this Roger, I've been wondering how things would be between the McCanns in all those years if one of them believed it was "tother spouse who will not be blamed for nothing"...

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

... it may be [the McCanns] were actually guilty of no such thing, and that their daughter died when being supervised by another adult.

In that case, where is the body?

[Abby Normal]

Indeed, RJ.

If we consider the polar opposite situation, where several people who were in a certain electrician's orbit, have been singing the same song and spilling the same beans about what he did since 1992, would that be another fairy story with no actual beans to spill?

How about everyone who knew, or had ever socialised or had any dealings with the Barretts up to 1992? Not one of them 'going rogue' or 'spilling the beans' or searching their own consciences in all this time? Nobody to lend a shred of support or credence to the still popular belief that this couple from Goldie Street were, or could have been, up to their necks in ink and fakery in early April 1992? Not one of them admitting that this was even vaguely likely, based on their personal impressions of Anne or Mike over time? Remember, this gruesome twosome had supposedly subjected their young daughter to witnessing the whole sordid enterprise, then getting her to "forget" what she had seen forever.

Would that not be a better example of a fairy story, based on the experience of the McCanns and your own criteria?

Love,

Caz
X

keep your diary nonsense out of it. off topic.

[cobalt]

I take on board Caz's reluctance to be invited on a holiday to be detailed as permanent baby sitter. But very few few couples in their mid to late thirties would invite a mother along to be anything else. Why was the matronly character that was Diane Webster such an integral part of this holiday of younger couples, whose humour as recorded rarely seems to have risen above the level of puerile? Why was she there?

The baby monitor for me is significant. Only the Payne family had such a device, which at present day prices can be had for around £30. So why did none of the other Tapas group invest in this reasonably cheap device? Could it be that all the children had been shepherded into one room and the monitor was judged sufficient? There may even have been an adult in the room as well, on a rota basis, with easy audio contact to the Tapas bar.

The McCanns were very open about their child negligence and have ben lambasted for that naturally. But it may be they were actually guilty of no such thing, and that their daughter died when being supervised by another adult.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The McCanns were advised by psychologists to show no emotion as an abductor may take pleasure from it. I think Gerry appears much like a consultant stereotype. Cold, hard logic often trumps emotion. If I cry does it bring my daughter back? No and so he stated he dedicated himself to getting her back. He has stated he cant chage what happened no matter what so he tries to look forward not back. Kate on the other hand is on record as stating it almost destroyed her and only for the twins and their needs she would likely have killed herself such was the mental pain and anguish. Not meaning to sound sexist as parents love their children equally of course, but the fact Madeleine was an IVF baby and a mother often has an incredibly strong maternal instinct I think she was broken by the whole thing.

As I pointed out before, similar accusations of not showing enough emotion were directed at Herbert Wallace and the Chamberlains, who were all obviously innocent.

This kind of mistaken belief on the part of the public belongs in the category of popular delusions, along with visions of Aaron Kosminski ejaculating in Mitre Square on a twentieth-century table runner, and the medical experts - like the police expert Anderson with his definitely ascertained facts about Jews - who were so sure that epileptic fits were caused by hysteria best relieved by sexual stimulation, or the myriads of doctors who until recently insisted that those infected by Helicobacter pylori were imagining things, that those suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome were malingerers, and that fibromyalgia sufferers were deluded neurotics.

Most culpable of all in the McCann and Chamberlain cases were the mass media, whipping up the public into a frenzy of hatred directed at innocent people - the respectable face of a lynch mob.

The vultures turned up at Cliff Richard's home hoping for another lynching.

It seems that human nature does not change.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Darryl,

Yes, I was shocked that Kate and Gerry did not beat themselves up far more about leaving Madeleine to a fate that was very possibly worse than death, and completely avoidable. No doubt they did so in private and will never forgive themselves, but it was not a good look at the time, whenever they were in the media spotlight, and would have contributed greatly to all the suspicions about them and also their friends.

Love,

Caz
X

The McCanns were advised by psychologists to show no emotion as an abductor may take pleasure from it. I think Gerry appears much like a consultant stereotype. Cold, hard logic often trumps emotion. If I cry does it bring my daughter back? No and so he stated he dedicated himself to getting her back. He has stated he cant chage what happened no matter what so he tries to look forward not back. Kate on the other hand is on record as stating it almost destroyed her and only for the twins and their needs she would likely have killed herself such was the mental pain and anguish. Not meaning to sound sexist as parents love their children equally of course, but the fact Madeleine was an IVF baby and a mother often has an incredibly strong maternal instinct I think she was broken by the whole thing.