Madeleine McCann

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.

For the same reason that people found it hard to believe that Lindy Chamberlain saw a dingo take her child and that Herbert Wallace innocently found his wife dead when he returned home one evening.

There is a natural tendency to believe the worst about innocent people - and that includes Druitt, Lechmere and Kosminski - and to believe those in authority - including Goncarlo Amaral and Sir Robert Anderson - even when they are not telling the truth.

[cobalt]

'it's hardly anything untoward that someone invited their mum on holidays.'

In UK culture I would say it was unusual to do so. No other couple apart from the Paynes invited a parent to accompany them.

'Again this is a point that is totally illogical suggesting all the children in one room.'

It makes sense if the adults were organising their holiday around a drinking session at the Tapas bar every evening. The Paynes' apartment was bigger than the others.

'That's certainly a new one. Madeleine died at the hands of one of their friends.'

She may have died when in the company of an adult but I certainly never suggested that she died 'at their hands.'

'Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.'

Because neither the window nor the shutter were open when the police arrived. It was impossible to open the shutter from outside and illogical for any intruder to do so from inside. The bed Madeleine McCann normally slept in did not seem to have been slept in, and the first police to arrive suspected that the scene had been staged. The only forensic evidence that could be retrieved showed that no one had entered or exited through the window, therefore the PJ reached the conclusion that an attempt had been made to mislead them.

[Sunny Delight]

I take on board Caz's reluctance to be invited on a holiday to be detailed as permanent baby sitter. But very few few couples in their mid to late thirties would invite a mother along to be anything else. Why was the matronly character that was Diane Webster such an integral part of this holiday of younger couples, whose humour as recorded rarely seems to have risen above the level of puerile? Why was she there?

The baby monitor for me is significant. Only the Payne family had such a device, which at present day prices can be had for around £30. So why did none of the other Tapas group invest in this reasonably cheap device? Could it be that all the children had been shepherded into one room and the monitor was judged sufficient? There may even have been an adult in the room as well, on a rota basis, with easy audio contact to the Tapas bar.

The McCanns were very open about their child negligence and have ben lambasted for that naturally. But it may be they were actually guilty of no such thing, and that their daughter died when being supervised by another adult.

What a bizarre notion. The grandmother was on holiday too, why would you pay for a holiday to be a babysitter? Of course maybe offering a night or two but come on it's hardly anything untoward that someone invited their mum on holidays. Or maybe she invited herself. Who knows? It's a completely irrelevant point anyways.

Baby monitoring devices in 2007 were not completely reliable. Not like today's technology. One couple had a listening device. The others didn't and instead checked their respective rooms once the children were sleeping. Again this is a point that is totally illogical suggesting all the children in one room.

That's certainly a new one. Madeleine died at the hands of one of their friends.

Surely the most obvious scenario here is the one Kate described. Madeleine was missing from the apartment when she went to check at 10pm. The window and shutter was open and she ran back to the Tapas bar in a full blown panic screaming her daughter had been taken. Why is that so difficult to believe.

[FrankO]

Read this bloke's post:





Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

Other than this Roger, I've been wondering how things would be between the McCanns in all those years if one of them believed it was "tother spouse who will not be blamed for nothing"...

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

... it may be [the McCanns] were actually guilty of no such thing, and that their daughter died when being supervised by another adult.

In that case, where is the body?

[Abby Normal]

Indeed, RJ.

If we consider the polar opposite situation, where several people who were in a certain electrician's orbit, have been singing the same song and spilling the same beans about what he did since 1992, would that be another fairy story with no actual beans to spill?

How about everyone who knew, or had ever socialised or had any dealings with the Barretts up to 1992? Not one of them 'going rogue' or 'spilling the beans' or searching their own consciences in all this time? Nobody to lend a shred of support or credence to the still popular belief that this couple from Goldie Street were, or could have been, up to their necks in ink and fakery in early April 1992? Not one of them admitting that this was even vaguely likely, based on their personal impressions of Anne or Mike over time? Remember, this gruesome twosome had supposedly subjected their young daughter to witnessing the whole sordid enterprise, then getting her to "forget" what she had seen forever.

Would that not be a better example of a fairy story, based on the experience of the McCanns and your own criteria?

Love,

Caz
X

keep your diary nonsense out of it. off topic.

[cobalt]

I take on board Caz's reluctance to be invited on a holiday to be detailed as permanent baby sitter. But very few few couples in their mid to late thirties would invite a mother along to be anything else. Why was the matronly character that was Diane Webster such an integral part of this holiday of younger couples, whose humour as recorded rarely seems to have risen above the level of puerile? Why was she there?

The baby monitor for me is significant. Only the Payne family had such a device, which at present day prices can be had for around £30. So why did none of the other Tapas group invest in this reasonably cheap device? Could it be that all the children had been shepherded into one room and the monitor was judged sufficient? There may even have been an adult in the room as well, on a rota basis, with easy audio contact to the Tapas bar.

The McCanns were very open about their child negligence and have ben lambasted for that naturally. But it may be they were actually guilty of no such thing, and that their daughter died when being supervised by another adult.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The McCanns were advised by psychologists to show no emotion as an abductor may take pleasure from it. I think Gerry appears much like a consultant stereotype. Cold, hard logic often trumps emotion. If I cry does it bring my daughter back? No and so he stated he dedicated himself to getting her back. He has stated he cant chage what happened no matter what so he tries to look forward not back. Kate on the other hand is on record as stating it almost destroyed her and only for the twins and their needs she would likely have killed herself such was the mental pain and anguish. Not meaning to sound sexist as parents love their children equally of course, but the fact Madeleine was an IVF baby and a mother often has an incredibly strong maternal instinct I think she was broken by the whole thing.

As I pointed out before, similar accusations of not showing enough emotion were directed at Herbert Wallace and the Chamberlains, who were all obviously innocent.

This kind of mistaken belief on the part of the public belongs in the category of popular delusions, along with visions of Aaron Kosminski ejaculating in Mitre Square on a twentieth-century table runner, and the medical experts - like the police expert Anderson with his definitely ascertained facts about Jews - who were so sure that epileptic fits were caused by hysteria best relieved by sexual stimulation, or the myriads of doctors who until recently insisted that those infected by Helicobacter pylori were imagining things, that those suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome were malingerers, and that fibromyalgia sufferers were deluded neurotics.

Most culpable of all in the McCann and Chamberlain cases were the mass media, whipping up the public into a frenzy of hatred directed at innocent people - the respectable face of a lynch mob.

The vultures turned up at Cliff Richard's home hoping for another lynching.

It seems that human nature does not change.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Darryl,

Yes, I was shocked that Kate and Gerry did not beat themselves up far more about leaving Madeleine to a fate that was very possibly worse than death, and completely avoidable. No doubt they did so in private and will never forgive themselves, but it was not a good look at the time, whenever they were in the media spotlight, and would have contributed greatly to all the suspicions about them and also their friends.

Love,

Caz
X

The McCanns were advised by psychologists to show no emotion as an abductor may take pleasure from it. I think Gerry appears much like a consultant stereotype. Cold, hard logic often trumps emotion. If I cry does it bring my daughter back? No and so he stated he dedicated himself to getting her back. He has stated he cant chage what happened no matter what so he tries to look forward not back. Kate on the other hand is on record as stating it almost destroyed her and only for the twins and their needs she would likely have killed herself such was the mental pain and anguish. Not meaning to sound sexist as parents love their children equally of course, but the fact Madeleine was an IVF baby and a mother often has an incredibly strong maternal instinct I think she was broken by the whole thing.

[caz]

Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

Indeed, RJ.

If we consider the polar opposite situation, where several people who were in a certain electrician's orbit, have been singing the same song and spilling the same beans about what he did since 1992, would that be another fairy story with no actual beans to spill?

How about everyone who knew, or had ever socialised or had any dealings with the Barretts up to 1992? Not one of them 'going rogue' or 'spilling the beans' or searching their own consciences in all this time? Nobody to lend a shred of support or credence to the still popular belief that this couple from Goldie Street were, or could have been, up to their necks in ink and fakery in early April 1992? Not one of them admitting that this was even vaguely likely, based on their personal impressions of Anne or Mike over time? Remember, this gruesome twosome had supposedly subjected their young daughter to witnessing the whole sordid enterprise, then getting her to "forget" what she had seen forever.

Would that not be a better example of a fairy story, based on the experience of the McCanns and your own criteria?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Granted, Fiona Payne's options for advice were very limited given her own arrangements. But she was being asked for her opinion so any advice she offered about keeping doors locked would not have been unsolicited.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I am sceptical that any such conversation took place on the evening of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. But there must have been an earlier discussion/agreement amongst the group, possibly prior to arriving at the complex, about their childminding plans. What these arrangements were we cannot know; the narrative about children being left alone and checked on at regular intervals may have been created after the fact to disguise a more damaging reality. The role of Fiona Payne's mother in the holiday group, an obvious babysitter one might have thought, remains unclear. At one point the PJ considered the possibility that all of the children were being looked after by one adult in the same room, this explaining the 'rota' of a different adult falling ill each evening.

Blimey, cobalt, if my daughter ever makes me a grandmother, I'm buggered if I would ever go on holiday abroad with her and a group of her friends if they expected me to babysit for them all!

In fact, I wouldn't go at all, in case I was criticised for not offering.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Darryl,

Yes, I was shocked that Kate and Gerry did not beat themselves up far more about leaving Madeleine to a fate that was very possibly worse than death, and completely avoidable. No doubt they did so in private and will never forgive themselves, but it was not a good look at the time, whenever they were in the media spotlight, and would have contributed greatly to all the suspicions about them and also their friends.

Love,

Caz
X

[Darryl Kenyon]

I don't think Gerry was a stupid man, Darryl. Neglectful of his kids, yes, but how could he be hoping Madeleine would be found quite quickly while claiming that both doors had been locked? It would have been obvious that she could not have got out by herself if that was the case, and if there was the slimmest chance of an abductor being able to enter and exit with her via the window, she was very unlikely ever to be found alive.

Love,

Caz
X

I take your point Caz. But i do feel early in the investigation he did try and deflect as much blame for the neglect of his children away from him and Kate Mcann as possible. One example he remarked upon quickly was along the lines of " It was like sitting in your own back garden [ the tapas bar ], with a clear view to the apartment ".
That was simply not true . But it does put him and Kate Mcann in a better light. Also i would like to point out that even years later [ and possibly to this day ], the Mcanns still believe/believed Madeline was/is alive .

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Eh? Did you mean that would be a reason why Kate did think she had been abducted?

It's a fair point if she was certain that the window and shutters were not how she had left them earlier, when settling the kids down for the night.

But that unlocked patio door, for me, would still be the more obvious entry and exit point for an intruder.

Love,

Caz
X

Yes, sorry Caz . It was meant to read - did. My typing is terrible

Regards Darryl

[Abby Normal]

Read this bloke's post:





Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

pretty much agree with this. As ive mentioned, i could see maybe one of them, maybe gerrys close friend, doing it, but even that would be a stretch, and any more? nah.