Madeleine McCann

[Fantomas]

The only evidence we have that 'checks' took place comes from the Tapas group. Some of the workers at the complex remembered seeing parents leaving the table, others had no recollection of this happening. The intervals between these checks, which apart from the one undertaken by Matthew Oldfield at 9.30 were exclusively on the parents' own children, was anything from 15 minutes to one hour depending on the witness. Given that a fair amount of alcohol was being consumed by the group then, even with the best of intentions, the figure of one hour would probably be nearer the mark.

When Oldfield was questioned in the UK he gave a detailed account of how his own apartment was locked and he had to enter by use of a key when checking on his children. Yet when Kate McCann told him at 9.30pm that the her sliding patio door was unlocked he did not seem in the slightest surprised or offer any kind of comment.

Not all of the Tapas group were at the table from 8.30pm until 10pm. O'Brien and Tanner were required at various times to stay in their apartment since one of the children had been physically sick. This was an unfortunate feature of the holiday; a number of the group fell ill on separate evenings.

To turn to the grim prospect of disposing of a child's body, this remains a serious stumbling block whatever your line of argument. To do so without a car and local knowledge would be extremely difficult and so far as we can gather the Tapas group had neither of these. A local with access to transport has an advantage there without a doubt but the chances of a body remaining undiscovered for many years later are very slim.

If you had a rich pal and benefactor nearby, with local knowledge and a car, like, I don't know Clement Freud, that could be arranged.

[FrankO]

FrankO,

O’Brien’s claim of his check inside the McCann apartment bolsters the narrative of abduction by a stranger. It has to be read in conjunction with Oldfield’s statement which it is intended to support.

The Oldfield check inside the McCann apartment at 9.30 was problematic for the PJ who pressed Oldfield on his statement to the extent that he broke down and became tearful when inside the police station. O’Brien’s claim of parents checking on other family’s children makes Oldfield’s 9.30pm check seem less of a ‘black swan’ moment and more part of an established routine.

O’Brien’s statement also supports Oldfield’s claim that the McCanns left their patio sliding door unlocked.

Taken at face value, the O’Brien and Oldfield statements reveal the McCanns as being outliers in two regards. They were recipients of good neighbourliness but did not return the favour by checking on other family’s children. Most importantly, they alone left their apartment unlocked.

While this may all be true, Cobalt, the bottom line would remain that, if they are all supposed to have been in on covering up something, they, as a group, did a rather lousy job. In fact, inconsistencies like these would raise eyebrows and suspicions rather than divert them away from the group and the McCanns in particular.

[Sunny Delight]

'Alcohol consumption and duration between checks is a red herring. Define a fair amount? And how that amount then can be compared to the amount that table had?'

The best definition came from a member of the Tapas group who said in a statement that more alcohol had been consumed on the evening Madeleine McCann disappeared than on other evenings.

'It was not for Matthew Oldfield to question the McCanns about their parental skills.'

I assume that would not have extended to remaining mute had Gerry McCann clattered his young children around the head with his tennis racquet. Which, as it turned out, would have caused less damage than an alleged unlocked door.

'So there was a bug going around? Hardly unusual with young kids.'

This was an unusual bug since it affected quite a few of the adults as well, if their statements are to be believed. The adults seem to have recovered after 24 hours, at which point another adult was afflicted. Yet it did not seem to dampen their enjoyment of the holiday according to their statements.

'So if the chances of a local with transport and knowledge of the area disposing of a body still unfound years later is very slim what chance did the McCanns have?'

Even slimmer, if they had no local assistance.

Can you provide the quote in regards extra alcohol consumption. That is even more of a reason for inconsistencies if a bit of alcohol is consumed. From what I have read there was not a particularly large consumption by the group. Not sure what it's relevance is anyways.

Well being physically abusive towards children would likely generate a reaction from friends. Leaving the patio door unlocked was how the McCanns did things. Oldfield had left his children alone as well but they had secured the apartment. I cant tell how he thought but in hindsight he probably wishes he did say something. But then if the perp entered through the window- what's the difference?

A 24 hr b2g is far from unusual and of course highly contagious.

Exactly. For proponents of the parents did it theory there is no realistic theory on how the parents hid the body.

[cobalt]

'Alcohol consumption and duration between checks is a red herring. Define a fair amount? And how that amount then can be compared to the amount that table had?'

The best definition came from a member of the Tapas group who said in a statement that more alcohol had been consumed on the evening Madeleine McCann disappeared than on other evenings.

'It was not for Matthew Oldfield to question the McCanns about their parental skills.'

I assume that would not have extended to remaining mute had Gerry McCann clattered his young children around the head with his tennis racquet. Which, as it turned out, would have caused less damage than an alleged unlocked door.

'So there was a bug going around? Hardly unusual with young kids.'

This was an unusual bug since it affected quite a few of the adults as well, if their statements are to be believed. The adults seem to have recovered after 24 hours, at which point another adult was afflicted. Yet it did not seem to dampen their enjoyment of the holiday according to their statements.

'So if the chances of a local with transport and knowledge of the area disposing of a body still unfound years later is very slim what chance did the McCanns have?'

Even slimmer, if they had no local assistance.

[cobalt]

'Inconsistency actually gives the impression of truth.'
I wouldn’t try that line of argument inside a police interrogation room. Minor inconsistencies like times and who was playing whom at tennis would certainly be expected. But only the credulous could ever believe that a man had the key to check on two children inside your apartment and neither your wife were aware of this fact. The PJ were not credulous.

At the end of the day if the whole group concocted a story and cover up they didn't do a very good job.
Good enough for the UK media, which is admittedly a very low bar. Their problem lay in squaring a circle. As ‘good parents’ they had to pretend they were checking every 15 minutes or so but the narrower the time gap between checks, the less was the likelihood of an abduction, planned or otherwise.

[cobalt]

FrankO,

O’Brien’s claim of his check inside the McCann apartment bolsters the narrative of abduction by a stranger. It has to be read in conjunction with Oldfield’s statement which it is intended to support.

The Oldfield check inside the McCann apartment at 9.30 was problematic for the PJ who pressed Oldfield on his statement to the extent that he broke down and became tearful when inside the police station. O’Brien’s claim of parents checking on other family’s children makes Oldfield’s 9.30pm check seem less of a ‘black swan’ moment and more part of an established routine.

O’Brien’s statement also supports Oldfield’s claim that the McCanns left their patio sliding door unlocked.

Taken at face value, the O’Brien and Oldfield statements reveal the McCanns as being outliers in two regards. They were recipients of good neighbourliness but did not return the favour by checking on other family’s children. Most importantly, they alone left their apartment unlocked.

[Sunny Delight]

The only evidence we have that 'checks' took place comes from the Tapas group. Some of the workers at the complex remembered seeing parents leaving the table, others had no recollection of this happening. The intervals between these checks, which apart from the one undertaken by Matthew Oldfield at 9.30 were exclusively on the parents' own children, was anything from 15 minutes to one hour depending on the witness. Given that a fair amount of alcohol was being consumed by the group then, even with the best of intentions, the figure of one hour would probably be nearer the mark.

When Oldfield was questioned in the UK he gave a detailed account of how his own apartment was locked and he had to enter by use of a key when checking on his children. Yet when Kate McCann told him at 9.30pm that the her sliding patio door was unlocked he did not seem in the slightest surprised or offer any kind of comment.

Not all of the Tapas group were at the table from 8.30pm until 10pm. O'Brien and Tanner were required at various times to stay in their apartment since one of the children had been physically sick. This was an unfortunate feature of the holiday; a number of the group fell ill on separate evenings.

To turn to the grim prospect of disposing of a child's body, this remains a serious stumbling block whatever your line of argument. To do so without a car and local knowledge would be extremely difficult and so far as we can gather the Tapas group had neither of these. A local with access to transport has an advantage there without a doubt but the chances of a body remaining undiscovered for many years later are very slim.

Alcohol consumption and duration between checks is a red herring. Define a fair amount? And how that amount then can be compared to the amount that table had?

It was not for Matthew Oldfield to question the McCanns about their parental skills.

So there was a bug going around? Hardly unusual with young kids.

Yes the argument in regards disposing of the body are freakish and on demented. Stored her in a refrigerator then transported 3 weeks later via car in front of the worlds media to an unknown location. So if the chances of a local with transport and knowledge of the area disposing of a body still unfound years later is very slim what chance did the McCanns have?

[Sunny Delight]

Russell O'Brien's Sunday evening check inside the Oldfield apartment is not just unknown to Matthew Oldfield, but also to Oldfield's wife Rachel. Yet O'Brien clearly remembers doing so and described using their key to enter the apartment. Here is Rachel Oldfield's account:

'And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that's the way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children.'

This is something more than mere forgetfulness. Someone is lying here, and presumably for a reason.

Never presume is the key is it not. When one presumes then it can lead down blind alleys. Inconsistency actually gives the impression of truth. At the end of the day if the whole group concocted a story and cover up they didn't do a very good job.

[FrankO]

This is something more than mere forgetfulness. Someone is lying here, and presumably for a reason.

Still, how was lying going to help the McCanns trying to cover up something?

[cobalt]

Russell O'Brien's Sunday evening check inside the Oldfield apartment is not just unknown to Matthew Oldfield, but also to Oldfield's wife Rachel. Yet O'Brien clearly remembers doing so and described using their key to enter the apartment. Here is Rachel Oldfield's account:

'And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that's the way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children.'

This is something more than mere forgetfulness. Someone is lying here, and presumably for a reason.

[cobalt]

Here’s an example of the problems faced by the PJ in establishing a clear picture of events. These rogatory interviews were almost a year after the disappearance, so the Tapas group had ample time to clarify their version of events.

In his rogatory interview Matthew Oldfield offers the following in regard to his 9.30pm visit to check on the McCann apartment.

‘And there was me and Russell as well, so, erm, you know, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it.’

But not ‘the first time’ according to his companion at the time, Russell O’Brien who remembered:

‘I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.'

That word ‘initially’ in the opening paragraph seems misplaced since the group arrived on the Saturday and by the Sunday O’Brien seems to have access to at least two other apartments. And Oldfield, one of the recipients of O’Brien’s checks, seems to have been unaware they were happening! And same as Oldfield, nowhere does O'Brien ever report broaching with the McCann's the wisdom of leaving apartments unlocked.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The only evidence we have that 'checks' took place comes from the Tapas group. Some of the workers at the complex remembered seeing parents leaving the table, others had no recollection of this happening.

There are, therefore, no grounds for suspicion, unless you believe that the parents who were seen leaving the table did so for a purpose other than that stated by them, and also that they were all part of a conspiracy to cover up the truth about what happened to Madeleine McCann.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

... the chances of a body remaining undiscovered for many years later are very slim.

Louise Kerton's body still has not been discovered and she disappeared nearly two years earlier than Madeleine.

[cobalt]

The only evidence we have that 'checks' took place comes from the Tapas group. Some of the workers at the complex remembered seeing parents leaving the table, others had no recollection of this happening. The intervals between these checks, which apart from the one undertaken by Matthew Oldfield at 9.30 were exclusively on the parents' own children, was anything from 15 minutes to one hour depending on the witness. Given that a fair amount of alcohol was being consumed by the group then, even with the best of intentions, the figure of one hour would probably be nearer the mark.

When Oldfield was questioned in the UK he gave a detailed account of how his own apartment was locked and he had to enter by use of a key when checking on his children. Yet when Kate McCann told him at 9.30pm that the her sliding patio door was unlocked he did not seem in the slightest surprised or offer any kind of comment.

Not all of the Tapas group were at the table from 8.30pm until 10pm. O'Brien and Tanner were required at various times to stay in their apartment since one of the children had been physically sick. This was an unfortunate feature of the holiday; a number of the group fell ill on separate evenings.

To turn to the grim prospect of disposing of a child's body, this remains a serious stumbling block whatever your line of argument. To do so without a car and local knowledge would be extremely difficult and so far as we can gather the Tapas group had neither of these. A local with access to transport has an advantage there without a doubt but the chances of a body remaining undiscovered for many years later are very slim.

[FrankO]

The two locked doors were not seen as a problem since it could be claimed an intruder entered and left through the window. It was only when that possibility was discounted by the PJ that the two locked doors created the problem you have identified.

Is it a fact that the McCanns initially told the police that both the front and patio/back door were locked? Or did they just not say initially that they left the patio door unlocked? In any case, could you let me know where I can find these initial statements? (To be clear, I mean statements before the ones they made on May 4th.)

The first reference I can find mentioning an unlocked patio door was in Oldfield's statement of 4th May, the day following the disappearance. Strangely, Gerry McCann does not mention this unlocked patio door in a statement he made the same day.

According to mccannpjfiles.co.uk Gerry McCann did mention that. Where can I find the version you use?