Madeleine McCann

[caz]

Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

Indeed, RJ.

If we consider the polar opposite situation, where several people who were in a certain electrician's orbit, have been singing the same song and spilling the same beans about what he did since 1992, would that be another fairy story with no actual beans to spill?

How about everyone who knew, or had ever socialised or had any dealings with the Barretts up to 1992? Not one of them 'going rogue' or 'spilling the beans' or searching their own consciences in all this time? Nobody to lend a shred of support or credence to the still popular belief that this couple from Goldie Street were, or could have been, up to their necks in ink and fakery in early April 1992? Not one of them admitting that this was even vaguely likely, based on their personal impressions of Anne or Mike over time? Remember, this gruesome twosome had supposedly subjected their young daughter to witnessing the whole sordid enterprise, then getting her to "forget" what she had seen forever.

Would that not be a better example of a fairy story, based on the experience of the McCanns and your own criteria?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Granted, Fiona Payne's options for advice were very limited given her own arrangements. But she was being asked for her opinion so any advice she offered about keeping doors locked would not have been unsolicited.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I am sceptical that any such conversation took place on the evening of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. But there must have been an earlier discussion/agreement amongst the group, possibly prior to arriving at the complex, about their childminding plans. What these arrangements were we cannot know; the narrative about children being left alone and checked on at regular intervals may have been created after the fact to disguise a more damaging reality. The role of Fiona Payne's mother in the holiday group, an obvious babysitter one might have thought, remains unclear. At one point the PJ considered the possibility that all of the children were being looked after by one adult in the same room, this explaining the 'rota' of a different adult falling ill each evening.

Blimey, cobalt, if my daughter ever makes me a grandmother, I'm buggered if I would ever go on holiday abroad with her and a group of her friends if they expected me to babysit for them all!

In fact, I wouldn't go at all, in case I was criticised for not offering.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Darryl,

Yes, I was shocked that Kate and Gerry did not beat themselves up far more about leaving Madeleine to a fate that was very possibly worse than death, and completely avoidable. No doubt they did so in private and will never forgive themselves, but it was not a good look at the time, whenever they were in the media spotlight, and would have contributed greatly to all the suspicions about them and also their friends.

Love,

Caz
X

[Darryl Kenyon]

I don't think Gerry was a stupid man, Darryl. Neglectful of his kids, yes, but how could he be hoping Madeleine would be found quite quickly while claiming that both doors had been locked? It would have been obvious that she could not have got out by herself if that was the case, and if there was the slimmest chance of an abductor being able to enter and exit with her via the window, she was very unlikely ever to be found alive.

Love,

Caz
X

I take your point Caz. But i do feel early in the investigation he did try and deflect as much blame for the neglect of his children away from him and Kate Mcann as possible. One example he remarked upon quickly was along the lines of " It was like sitting in your own back garden [ the tapas bar ], with a clear view to the apartment ".
That was simply not true . But it does put him and Kate Mcann in a better light. Also i would like to point out that even years later [ and possibly to this day ], the Mcanns still believe/believed Madeline was/is alive .

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Eh? Did you mean that would be a reason why Kate did think she had been abducted?

It's a fair point if she was certain that the window and shutters were not how she had left them earlier, when settling the kids down for the night.

But that unlocked patio door, for me, would still be the more obvious entry and exit point for an intruder.

Love,

Caz
X

Yes, sorry Caz . It was meant to read - did. My typing is terrible

Regards Darryl

[Abby Normal]

Read this bloke's post:





Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

pretty much agree with this. As ive mentioned, i could see maybe one of them, maybe gerrys close friend, doing it, but even that would be a stretch, and any more? nah.

[rjpalmer]

Read this bloke's post:

I found this to be one of the more incredible aspects of the police theory, that the friends lied and helped cover up the McCann's having accidentally killed their daughter. Stop and ask yourself this question: For whom would you do that? I can't imagine doing it for anyone. The stakes are simply too high (being arrested and imprisoned and losing my own family, not to mention my freedom) for something that doesn't benefit me in any way, aside from seeing someone else get away with a crime because... I like them? Because we vacation together? Keep in mind also, the adults all knew this child. And they all signed up for this conspiracy? Not one dissenter? No dissenters when the McCann's story goes international? No dissenters when the British government gets involved? No dissenters as the McCann's make the media rounds, begin to accept donations?

Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

[cobalt]

Granted, Fiona Payne's options for advice were very limited given her own arrangements. But she was being asked for her opinion so any advice she offered about keeping doors locked would not have been unsolicited.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I am sceptical that any such conversation took place on the evening of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. But there must have been an earlier discussion/agreement amongst the group, possibly prior to arriving at the complex, about their childminding plans. What these arrangements were we cannot know; the narrative about children being left alone and checked on at regular intervals may have been created after the fact to disguise a more damaging reality. The role of Fiona Payne's mother in the holiday group, an obvious babysitter one might have thought, remains unclear. At one point the PJ considered the possibility that all of the children were being looked after by one adult in the same room, this explaining the 'rota' of a different adult falling ill each evening.

[caz]

Sometimes film directors insert dialogue to fill in plot gaps and such dialogue usually jars on the ear for a couple of reasons. It might intrude awkwardly into the mood of a scene, or even worse be 'fed' to a character along the lines of Dr. Watson's 'What on earth makes you think that, Holmes?'

That is how I hear the testimony relating to regular checks and unlocked patio doors from Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield, David Payne and Fiona Payne. It's possible to construct a rough approximation of a character from their recorded testimony and for me, O'Brien is prickly and defensive; Oldfield nervous but striving to be honest; David Payne, garrulous but evasive; Fiona Payne surly and impatient. None of their testimony on the areas that really matter has the ring of truth to my ear.

The ring of false coin sounds loud in Fiona Payne's reported discussion with Kate McCann relating to unlocked 'doors' (plural in her account.) Others have picked up the glaring omissions in Kate McCann's unease: the danger of a child vomiting in bed (an unfortunate feature of this particular holiday,) a child falling after waking, an intruder, or even a fire. As a close friend and mother herself, it defies belief that Mrs. Payne did not point out some of these hazards in the course of the conversation.

Hi cobalt,

In my experience, it can be really awkward to offer unsolicited childcare advice, let alone to criticise the decisions of a close friend, especially when you are on holiday together. Mothers can very easily fall out with other mothers over the most casually worded hints or suggestions. They all dined out together, leaving their kids unsupervised and vulnerable to choking, falling or fire - or a determined intruder - so Kate's 'locked or unlocked' thoughts, which were only related to the possibility of Madeleine waking up again that night, were unlikely to provoke a warning about the comparative dangers of either option. Besides, what could Fiona have said, when she wasn't following the most sensible advice herself, which was not to leave the kids alone at all?

With hindsight, I'm sure Fiona has the most bitter regrets about what all the parents were doing and the resulting tragedy, but she shouldn't beat herself up for the decisions made by Kate and Gerry. Would they have taken any advice from her anyway?

Love

Caz
X

[cobalt]

The parents were all in their mid to late 30s, so far from youngish. There was a blogger who wrote an article on the case titled The Cracked Mirror which is quite acerbic about the collective character of the Tapas group. His general point was that these were people who saw themselves as having risen above their original social position, and had rather too good a conceit of themselves. He approached their parenting from a traditional perspective, finding them more career than family centred, and contrasted this with the country they were holidaying in. He also pointed out the group's total lack of curiosity in anything outside the complex itself.

[caz]

Hi Caz
If the window was open and the shutters up, that's probably the reason Kate Mcann didn't think that Madeline had been abducted.

Regards Darryl

Eh? Did you mean that would be a reason why Kate did think she had been abducted?

It's a fair point if she was certain that the window and shutters were not how she had left them earlier, when settling the kids down for the night.

But that unlocked patio door, for me, would still be the more obvious entry and exit point for an intruder.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz
I am going to have to disagree here. If Gerry Mcann said originally that both doors were locked. I think he quickly realised the very possible chance of charges, or accusations of neglect being made . Thus self preservation kicked in . He was probably still hoping that Madeline would be found quite quickly. And when that didn't happen he had to tell the truth .

Part of Fiona Payne's statement regarding the unlocked patio door which Cobalt uploaded
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'.

Regards Darryl

I don't think Gerry was a stupid man, Darryl. Neglectful of his kids, yes, but how could he be hoping Madeleine would be found quite quickly while claiming that both doors had been locked? It would have been obvious that she could not have got out by herself if that was the case, and if there was the slimmest chance of an abductor being able to enter and exit with her via the window, she was very unlikely ever to be found alive.

Love,

Caz
X

[Pcdunn]

Weren't the parents youngish, though? And maybe used to having babysitters or nannies for the kids, at least partime? Perhaps they were simply not well educated as to the dangers that could befall very young children.

I remember first hearing about parents who left their kids in an "unlocked hotel room" and thinking how stupid that was, since I pictured a conventional large building hotel. Later details explained it was a resort in a foreign country, and my estimation of the parents' good judgment lessened.

I thought I read somewhere that there was no babysitting service at night, but a listening service was available for extra payment, and the couples figured they could save money by doing it themselves.

[cobalt]

Sometimes film directors insert dialogue to fill in plot gaps and such dialogue usually jars on the ear for a couple of reasons. It might intrude awkwardly into the mood of a scene, or even worse be 'fed' to a character along the lines of Dr. Watson's 'What on earth makes you think that, Holmes?'

That is how I hear the testimony relating to regular checks and unlocked patio doors from Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield, David Payne and Fiona Payne. It's possible to construct a rough approximation of a character from their recorded testimony and for me, O'Brien is prickly and defensive; Oldfield nervous but striving to be honest; David Payne, garrulous but evasive; Fiona Payne surly and impatient. None of their testimony on the areas that really matter has the ring of truth to my ear.

The ring of false coin sounds loud in Fiona Payne's reported discussion with Kate McCann relating to unlocked 'doors' (plural in her account.) Others have picked up the glaring omissions in Kate McCann's unease: the danger of a child vomiting in bed (an unfortunate feature of this particular holiday,) a child falling after waking, an intruder, or even a fire. As a close friend and mother herself, it defies belief that Mrs. Payne did not point out some of these hazards in the course of the conversation.

[Darryl Kenyon]

It just struck me...

If Kate expressed the thought that if Madeleine woke up again she could "get out [via the unlocked patio door] and find us", it is still hard to understand why, when the worst happened and she found her child's bed empty, her first thought was that she had been abducted. That thought had apparently not even occurred to her when wondering earlier that evening if it was better for the apartment to be locked or unlocked. This was all based on the possibility of Madeleine waking up again and whether or not she would try and get out.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
If the window was open and the shutters up, that's probably the reason Kate Mcann didn't think that Madeline had been abducted.

Regards Darryl