Madeleine McCann

[rjpalmer]

Read this bloke's post:

I found this to be one of the more incredible aspects of the police theory, that the friends lied and helped cover up the McCann's having accidentally killed their daughter. Stop and ask yourself this question: For whom would you do that? I can't imagine doing it for anyone. The stakes are simply too high (being arrested and imprisoned and losing my own family, not to mention my freedom) for something that doesn't benefit me in any way, aside from seeing someone else get away with a crime because... I like them? Because we vacation together? Keep in mind also, the adults all knew this child. And they all signed up for this conspiracy? Not one dissenter? No dissenters when the McCann's story goes international? No dissenters when the British government gets involved? No dissenters as the McCann's make the media rounds, begin to accept donations?

Seven people circling around the McCanns and all singing from the same chap book and not one of them going rogue or spilling the beans, for years, and despite intense media scrutiny, not to mention their own consciences?

It's a fairy story.

[cobalt]

Granted, Fiona Payne's options for advice were very limited given her own arrangements. But she was being asked for her opinion so any advice she offered about keeping doors locked would not have been unsolicited.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I am sceptical that any such conversation took place on the evening of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. But there must have been an earlier discussion/agreement amongst the group, possibly prior to arriving at the complex, about their childminding plans. What these arrangements were we cannot know; the narrative about children being left alone and checked on at regular intervals may have been created after the fact to disguise a more damaging reality. The role of Fiona Payne's mother in the holiday group, an obvious babysitter one might have thought, remains unclear. At one point the PJ considered the possibility that all of the children were being looked after by one adult in the same room, this explaining the 'rota' of a different adult falling ill each evening.

[caz]

Sometimes film directors insert dialogue to fill in plot gaps and such dialogue usually jars on the ear for a couple of reasons. It might intrude awkwardly into the mood of a scene, or even worse be 'fed' to a character along the lines of Dr. Watson's 'What on earth makes you think that, Holmes?'

That is how I hear the testimony relating to regular checks and unlocked patio doors from Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield, David Payne and Fiona Payne. It's possible to construct a rough approximation of a character from their recorded testimony and for me, O'Brien is prickly and defensive; Oldfield nervous but striving to be honest; David Payne, garrulous but evasive; Fiona Payne surly and impatient. None of their testimony on the areas that really matter has the ring of truth to my ear.

The ring of false coin sounds loud in Fiona Payne's reported discussion with Kate McCann relating to unlocked 'doors' (plural in her account.) Others have picked up the glaring omissions in Kate McCann's unease: the danger of a child vomiting in bed (an unfortunate feature of this particular holiday,) a child falling after waking, an intruder, or even a fire. As a close friend and mother herself, it defies belief that Mrs. Payne did not point out some of these hazards in the course of the conversation.

Hi cobalt,

In my experience, it can be really awkward to offer unsolicited childcare advice, let alone to criticise the decisions of a close friend, especially when you are on holiday together. Mothers can very easily fall out with other mothers over the most casually worded hints or suggestions. They all dined out together, leaving their kids unsupervised and vulnerable to choking, falling or fire - or a determined intruder - so Kate's 'locked or unlocked' thoughts, which were only related to the possibility of Madeleine waking up again that night, were unlikely to provoke a warning about the comparative dangers of either option. Besides, what could Fiona have said, when she wasn't following the most sensible advice herself, which was not to leave the kids alone at all?

With hindsight, I'm sure Fiona has the most bitter regrets about what all the parents were doing and the resulting tragedy, but she shouldn't beat herself up for the decisions made by Kate and Gerry. Would they have taken any advice from her anyway?

Love

Caz
X

[cobalt]

The parents were all in their mid to late 30s, so far from youngish. There was a blogger who wrote an article on the case titled The Cracked Mirror which is quite acerbic about the collective character of the Tapas group. His general point was that these were people who saw themselves as having risen above their original social position, and had rather too good a conceit of themselves. He approached their parenting from a traditional perspective, finding them more career than family centred, and contrasted this with the country they were holidaying in. He also pointed out the group's total lack of curiosity in anything outside the complex itself.

[caz]

Hi Caz
If the window was open and the shutters up, that's probably the reason Kate Mcann didn't think that Madeline had been abducted.

Regards Darryl

Eh? Did you mean that would be a reason why Kate did think she had been abducted?

It's a fair point if she was certain that the window and shutters were not how she had left them earlier, when settling the kids down for the night.

But that unlocked patio door, for me, would still be the more obvious entry and exit point for an intruder.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz
I am going to have to disagree here. If Gerry Mcann said originally that both doors were locked. I think he quickly realised the very possible chance of charges, or accusations of neglect being made . Thus self preservation kicked in . He was probably still hoping that Madeline would be found quite quickly. And when that didn't happen he had to tell the truth .

Part of Fiona Payne's statement regarding the unlocked patio door which Cobalt uploaded
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'.

Regards Darryl

I don't think Gerry was a stupid man, Darryl. Neglectful of his kids, yes, but how could he be hoping Madeleine would be found quite quickly while claiming that both doors had been locked? It would have been obvious that she could not have got out by herself if that was the case, and if there was the slimmest chance of an abductor being able to enter and exit with her via the window, she was very unlikely ever to be found alive.

Love,

Caz
X

[Pcdunn]

Weren't the parents youngish, though? And maybe used to having babysitters or nannies for the kids, at least partime? Perhaps they were simply not well educated as to the dangers that could befall very young children.

I remember first hearing about parents who left their kids in an "unlocked hotel room" and thinking how stupid that was, since I pictured a conventional large building hotel. Later details explained it was a resort in a foreign country, and my estimation of the parents' good judgment lessened.

I thought I read somewhere that there was no babysitting service at night, but a listening service was available for extra payment, and the couples figured they could save money by doing it themselves.

[cobalt]

Sometimes film directors insert dialogue to fill in plot gaps and such dialogue usually jars on the ear for a couple of reasons. It might intrude awkwardly into the mood of a scene, or even worse be 'fed' to a character along the lines of Dr. Watson's 'What on earth makes you think that, Holmes?'

That is how I hear the testimony relating to regular checks and unlocked patio doors from Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield, David Payne and Fiona Payne. It's possible to construct a rough approximation of a character from their recorded testimony and for me, O'Brien is prickly and defensive; Oldfield nervous but striving to be honest; David Payne, garrulous but evasive; Fiona Payne surly and impatient. None of their testimony on the areas that really matter has the ring of truth to my ear.

The ring of false coin sounds loud in Fiona Payne's reported discussion with Kate McCann relating to unlocked 'doors' (plural in her account.) Others have picked up the glaring omissions in Kate McCann's unease: the danger of a child vomiting in bed (an unfortunate feature of this particular holiday,) a child falling after waking, an intruder, or even a fire. As a close friend and mother herself, it defies belief that Mrs. Payne did not point out some of these hazards in the course of the conversation.

[Darryl Kenyon]

It just struck me...

If Kate expressed the thought that if Madeleine woke up again she could "get out [via the unlocked patio door] and find us", it is still hard to understand why, when the worst happened and she found her child's bed empty, her first thought was that she had been abducted. That thought had apparently not even occurred to her when wondering earlier that evening if it was better for the apartment to be locked or unlocked. This was all based on the possibility of Madeleine waking up again and whether or not she would try and get out.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
If the window was open and the shutters up, that's probably the reason Kate Mcann didn't think that Madeline had been abducted.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Ah, I've just read this one, cobalt, which does suggest that the patio door was unlocked. It is shocking to me that Kate could possibly have wondered what would be the better of those two options, if Madeleine woke up for the second night running to find her Mum and Dad not there, while failing to see the only safe option, of not leaving the kids alone at all. All very well if they did plan to make regular checks, but no earthly good to a child who wakes up between checks and is immediately distressed.

But what it also suggests is that IF Gerry had had any knowledge of what happened, he'd have made the most of the unlocked patio door and stuck with that version from the start, to allow for an intruder to have entered and left that way. There would have been no advantage to claim both doors had been locked if they were not.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
I am going to have to disagree here. If Gerry Mcann said originally that both doors were locked. I think he quickly realised the very possible chance of charges, or accusations of neglect being made . Thus self preservation kicked in . He was probably still hoping that Madeline would be found quite quickly. And when that didn't happen he had to tell the truth .

Part of Fiona Payne's statement regarding the unlocked patio door which Cobalt uploaded
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'.

Regards Darryl

[caz]

It just struck me...

If Kate expressed the thought that if Madeleine woke up again she could "get out [via the unlocked patio door] and find us", it is still hard to understand why, when the worst happened and she found her child's bed empty, her first thought was that she had been abducted. That thought had apparently not even occurred to her when wondering earlier that evening if it was better for the apartment to be locked or unlocked. This was all based on the possibility of Madeleine waking up again and whether or not she would try and get out.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Once again I have to stand corrected. There WAS a brief discussion about the merits of leaving the McCann's patio door unlocked - between Kate McCann and Fiona Payne. By a grim coincidence this conversation took place on the Thursday, within an hour of Madeleine McCann later being discovered missing. Fiona Payne commented on the light hearted atmosphere at the Tapas table that evening but Kate McCann seemed deeper in her thoughts. Mrs. McCann first described how Madeleine had the previous evening woken to find her self unattended, then she moved on to ask advice about the patio door being left unlocked. Fiona Payne does not seem to have offered any advice in response.

''1485
'What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that''

Reply
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

1485
'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''

Reply
'Yeah'.

1485
'Did she say whether she had locked or''

Reply
'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'.

1485
'Left the patio''

Reply
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation.''

Ah, I've just read this one, cobalt, which does suggest that the patio door was unlocked. It is shocking to me that Kate could possibly have wondered what would be the better of those two options, if Madeleine woke up for the second night running to find her Mum and Dad not there, while failing to see the only safe option, of not leaving the kids alone at all. All very well if they did plan to make regular checks, but no earthly good to a child who wakes up between checks and is immediately distressed.

But what it also suggests is that IF Gerry had had any knowledge of what happened, he'd have made the most of the unlocked patio door and stuck with that version from the start, to allow for an intruder to have entered and left that way. There would have been no advantage to claim both doors had been locked if they were not.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

'What evidence do you have that Murat was a 'dodgy character', or was considered to be one?'

I'll be careful what I say since Murat was awarded damages by UK newspapers for suggesting he was a dodgy character! It was actually a UK journalist acting on gut instinct who drew Murat to the attention of the PJ when he was reluctant to be photographed. Some of the Tapas group then told police they had seen Murat around the complex on the night of the disappearance although Murat claimed to have been inside his house, about 100 yards away, with his mother all evening. The UK media then began finding former 'friends' testifying to Murat's sexual deviancy. The PJ were obliged to follow these suspicions and dug up bits of his garden and drained a bathing pool, but nothing came of it.

The UK media have a lot to answer for, conjuring up unidentified 'pals', or 'former friends', when they need an unsavoury angle to sell papers. People do sometimes talk for money about a former friend or colleague, but it's still hearsay, and too often the refusal to name sources allows immoral journalists to make stuff up with no comeback. Few claimants have thousands and thousands of pounds spare to take a newspaper to court, so the best Robert Murat might have hoped for if he sought to undo the damage was an out-of-court settlement, if he didn't mind having his personal life raked over and the public thinking the worst of him anyway. It's bad enough when the maligned person is a celebrity, but beyond despicable when it happens to an ordinary citizen, as I hope you would agree.

'Absolutely, cobalt, but isn't it your belief that both doors were locked?'

On balance, I think that is most likely the case. No other members left their apartments unlocked; two of the group claimed to have checked inside the McCann apartment via the patio doors yet this odd arrangement was never apparently a matter of discussion. Which is odd since the Tapas group, according to their own testimony were, prior to the disappearance, quick to offer their opinion on matters such as paedophilia and child care arrangements to outsiders. And purely for the purpose of argument: leaving the children out of the equation for a moment, I find it hard to believe that a fellow Scot like Gerry McCann would leave an apartment containing presumably money and passports unlocked.

Is it known that there was no safe in the apartment, in which to lock passports and currency and so on? This has been standard practice for many a long year in most places I have stayed at home and abroad. So while Gerry would arguably not have left any valuables in plain sight, whether or not all the doors and windows were locked whenever they went out, we know he left all three of his young children in their beds, in plain view of any determined intruder.

I still don't buy that Gerry - or an intruder for that matter - would have stupidly locked both doors behind him after leaving with Madeleine. If the window wasn't used, as you insist, it would surely have been obvious even to Inspector Clouseau that whoever locked those doors must have removed the child first, and no intruder would have done that. It would have been curtains - not blinds [sorry] - for Gerry.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fantomas]

Why would they 'speak out', after all this time? What would you expect them to say, and what would satisfy you that they knew no more than what they said at the time?

In short, what have they to gain from opening old wounds and feeding suspicious minds?

Love,

Caz
X

Any group who truly were in on the fringes of a truly missing child case would never shut up about it, I wouldn't. In my profession as a college lecturer, I am still asked for and volunteer information on a plagiarism scandal, still unsolved, from the late 1990s. This is supposed to be about a missing child. Their silence speaks volumes - and what I surmise isn't pleasant.

[cobalt]

Once again I have to stand corrected. There WAS a brief discussion about the merits of leaving the McCann's patio door unlocked - between Kate McCann and Fiona Payne. By a grim coincidence this conversation took place on the Thursday, within an hour of Madeleine McCann later being discovered missing. Fiona Payne commented on the light hearted atmosphere at the Tapas table that evening but Kate McCann seemed deeper in her thoughts. Mrs. McCann first described how Madeleine had the previous evening woken to find her self unattended, then she moved on to ask advice about the patio door being left unlocked. Fiona Payne does not seem to have offered any advice in response.

''1485
'What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that''

Reply
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.

1485
'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''

Reply
'Yeah'.

1485
'Did she say whether she had locked or''

Reply
'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'.

1485
'Left the patio''

Reply
'And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said 'Oh it will be fine', you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation.''