JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

When Trump told a friend "if they showed you what they showed me, you wouldn't release it either", it's not likely to be anything about LHO. That wouldn't need to be suppressed for 60 years. I think it has to be something that goes to the very top of the government and the oligarchs of the time.

I know who my money is on .

[FrankO]

It would be interesting/instructive to know what those that favour conspiracy believe happened as there are different possibilities. This is purely out of curiosity and isn’t an excuse for a bit of point scoring as you all know the position of those that favour the lone gunman.

So could I ask which you support?

a) Oswald firing from the TSBD plus a Grassy Knoll gunman.
b) Someone else firing from the TSBD (with Oswald not firing at all) and a Grassy Knoll gunman.
c) No one firing from the TSBD but a gunman firing from another location plus a Grassy Knoll gunman.
d) Someone firing from somewhere other than the TSBD or the Grassy Knoll.

I'd start with something smaller, Mike.

For those who believe Kennedy and Connally were hit by seperate bullets:

a) At what point (around which Zapruder frame) do you think Connally was hit?
b) What do you base this on?
c) Where was the shooter located?

It would be nice to see an overview of Dealey Plaza with the positions (a & b) indicated. And a close-up picture of JFK & Connally in the relative position to eachother when this happened. I'd be interested in knowing what people think about this. So far, I've only heard George's view on this, although I don't remember if he revealed the shooter's possible location.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

MY post ''Are'' the Evidence . The Rifle , Autopsy Photos , Eye Witnesses , Tape Recordings etc. ..... ''FACTS'' . , Its all there in black and white with plenty more to come . I only deal in Evidence now, not pointless ,repeatative , discussion.

Ok, so your posts are superior to everyone else’s. We have established that.

The issue is what is actual evidence and also how different people interpret it. Two obvious examples are 1) you cut and pasted the paragraph about Wilcott the comment from you as if it was somehow proof of conspiracy. You made no attempt to look into how valid his evidence was. He was a low level pay operative who allegedly had ‘off duty or out of daytime hours’ conversations with people that he can’t even recall the names of. Those people allegedly told him what they had heard from other undisclosed, unnamed people. Surely you can understand how weak this is Fishy? Then we have to ask why he waited 10-12 before coming forward? Did anything change? Actually it did. He left the CIA and got involved in anti-government, left wing politics (which doesn’t make him a bad person of course but it might indicate someone looking for ways of damaging the government and it’s institutions. Wilcott’s ‘evidence’ is pretty weak stuff.

Then there was talk of bullets and fragments. Unlike the Wilcott ‘evidence’ Fiver mentions the testing done by Frazier which was confirmed by 4 independent tests. This is evidence of the strongest type. Can you imagine, under any circumstances, a jury ignoring 5 experts who all came to the same conclusion? And yet you never acknowledged this evidence because it doesn’t fit your long held preconception.

Evidence isn’t about simply posting a quote from someone who says something that you agree with.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jaggars-Chiles-Stoval Cont.


This is a good example of the WC making things up.
as do the WC apologists. Here is DVP's statement on the problem:

"My view is that Oswald bought his money order BEFORE he went to work on March 12th.
And if the post office wasn't open before 8:00 AM (anybody know?),
I would surmise that LHO just showed up for work a little late on March 12th,
despite what the official JCS records show."

The gentleman makes a claim but inserts "anybody know?" He strikes me as a provocateur rather than an invesitagtor.
How often does DVP tell his readers that doubters have no evidence.
Here is the evidence but Dave doesn't' like it or understand it.
Oswald could not show up late. Oswald was very good with attendance as the testimony of John Graef before the WC states.
It's the apologist's turn to have an opinion without evidence

I notice that you haven’t answered those questions I posed Scott. Not to worry. It’s par-for-the-course on here. The absence of a solid explanation isn’t proof of anything. DVP could have been correct. Have you never heard of people doing jobs when they did something that the boss wasn’t aware of? How one employee might cover for another employee? These things happen.

And of course…Oswald’s handwriting was on it. Which would be considered as strong evidence in any court.

The problem is, as per the questions you chose to ignore, the idea of a conspiracy is preposterous, so there must be some explanation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m now remembering why I didn’t want to get back into this stuff. It really is a waste of time. We will never achieve anything. I just looked at a section on the money order on DVP’s website. You would need a week to read through it. Too many people focusing on nitpicking details (on both sides) with one side never convincing the other.

The only valid discussion is about the wider points.

Would any high level conspiracy have thought “oh yeah, Oswald. He’s the best man for the job.” Of course they wouldn’t.

Was he the type of person who might end up doing something like kill the President, did he behave like an innocent man? Let’s have a quick look.

Difficult childhood, moved from school to school, placed under a psychiatrist, disappeared father, narcissistic mother who he’d attacked, brother and wife who he had attacked, moved from job to job. Regularly in trouble. Joined the Navy where he was regular in trouble (including shooting himself) but received rifle training and was a fairly decent/average marksman. Defected to the Soviet Union, returned but was trying to go back. Separated from his family. Attempted to assassinate Walker. Had to be restrained from going after Nixon with a gun. Changed his routine before the murder. Left his wedding ring and all the money that he had. Didn’t bother with a lunch pack. Took a large package to work which he remarkably claimed were curtain rods. Had a rifle at the Paine’s which was later gone. Entered the TSBD without waiting for Frazier. Rifle that shot Kennedy (and was traced to him) was found on the 6th floor where he was working. His clip board (not filled in was found there - no work done) His prints on the gun, the packaging and 2 cartons. Fibres on the rifle matched Oswald’s clothes. After being seen by Officer Baker and Roy Truly he flees the building, passes the bus stop that takes him to his rooming house to catch another bus which takes him nowhere near. He’s in so much of a rush to get away that he gets a transfer ticket for another bus. Still too slow so he goes and gets a taxi. He won’t engage in any attempt at conversation with the driver. He gets out a distance from the rooming house. The driver sees him walk away then turn around and walk back. He ignores Earlene Roberts, picks up a jacket and a pistol. He passes the scene of Officer Tippit’s murder and around 10 people mistake him for the real killer (who shot Tippit using the gun that Oswald had on him when he was arrested). Johnny Brewer sees him acting suspiciously. The police are called, Oswald pulls a gun but is subdued.

All of the above are apparently the actions of an innocent man. An innocent dupe of a conspiracy.

What an absolutely joke. For 6o years this crap has been foisted on the public. The idea of a conspiracy is in itself the greatest conspiracy ever. A deliberate, politically motivated movement.

[Lewis C]

When Trump told a friend "if they showed you what they showed me, you wouldn't release it either", it's not likely to be anything about LHO. That wouldn't need to be suppressed for 60 years. I think it has to be something that goes to the very top of the government and the oligarchs of the time.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on anything Trump said.

Chances are, it will be something along the lines of what Herlock said: high level government people, but covering up their failure to keep track of Oswald, not planing the murder. If there were documents that showed a government conspiracy to kill JFK, they would have been destroyed many years ago.

[scottnapa]

I notice that you haven’t answered those questions I posed Scott. Not to worry. It’s par-for-the-course on here. The absence of a solid explanation isn’t proof of anything. DVP could have been correct. Have you never heard of people doing jobs when they did something that the boss wasn’t aware of? How one employee might cover for another employee? These things happen.

And of course…Oswald’s handwriting was on it. Which would be considered as strong evidence in any court.

The problem is, as per the questions you chose to ignore, the idea of a conspiracy is preposterous, so there must be some explanation.

hello, I realize I’ve only answered one of your questions and I’m working on question two; “
I await your response that post.

“So why go with a plot that involves so many people. Police, secret service, doctors, military, CIA, FBI, Warren commissioners, experts employed for testing etc etc. it must be 100’s of people.”
I am working on #2 now.
I have problem with my eyesight and fatigue. I can’t look at the computer for as many hours as I used to.
such is life, I was a hare when I was young, now I am a tortoise.

No. DVP can’t be right just because you believe in his conclusions
You are correct about the Oswald handwriting.
I am correct about the time sheets.
if you ignore evidence then you have no right to mock others who do not agree with you
Yes. Oswald has this rifle at some point. . It may have been given to him, like the Minox camera.

[Fiver]

According to the Warren Commission report, Lee Harvey Oswald left his job at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall during the morning of March 12, 1963, walked 11 blocks to the downtown post office, purchased a postal money order, and then mailed his order for the rifle to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago before returning to work.

the letter was postmarked 10:30 am, However, the time records show that Oswald never left his job. He worked on 9 different printing projects from 8:00 am through 11:45 a.m.. then took a half-hour lunch.

Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall work was client based so hours worked on any given project had to be noted for bookkeeping .
The manager sees Oswald work and finish projects and marks it sheet accordingly. Oswald was NOT at the post office on this day

That's not what the Warren Commission Report says.

And your source has absolutely no idea how the US Postal Service works. Letters are not postmarked when they are received. A local Post Office collects letters and sends them by truck to a local sorting center. The sorting center then sorts, postmarks, and ships out the letters.

So a 10:30am postmark is well after the time Oswald mailed the letter. My guess is that Oswald got off the bus on his way to work, walked about a block to the Post Office, got and mailed his money order, and then walked a 1/2 mile to start work at 8am.

[cobalt]

My guess is that Oswald got off the bus on his way to work, walked about a block to the Post Office, got and mailed his money order, and then walked a 1/2 mile to start work at 8am.

Do we know when Post Offices opened for business in Dallas in 1963? In the UK it was generally at 9am in these days but maybe things were different in Dallas.

[Herlock Sholmes]

hello, I realize I’ve only answered one of your questions and I’m working on question two; “
I await your response that post.

“So why go with a plot that involves so many people. Police, secret service, doctors, military, CIA, FBI, Warren commissioners, experts employed for testing etc etc. it must be 100’s of people.”
I am working on #2 now.
I have problem with my eyesight and fatigue. I can’t look at the computer for as many hours as I used to.
such is life, I was a hare when I was young, now I am a tortoise.

No. DVP can’t be right just because you believe in his conclusions
You are correct about the Oswald handwriting.
I am correct about the time sheets.
if you ignore evidence then you have no right to mock others who do not agree with you
Yes. Oswald has this rifle at some point. . It may have been given to him, like the Minox camera.

I’m not ignoring the evidence. I’m saying that we shouldn’t assume that there can’t be an innocent explanation. How many times in history have people done dodgy things at work like having a friend clock you in, sneaking out for a while and being covered for by someone?

It’s interesting that you label DWP as a provocateur simply because abuse he adds the words ‘anyone know?’ He didn’t add this in a piece of written research though which would have sounded lazy, he was answering a question on the spot as best he could. No one can be expected to know the answer to every single question. And of course, you’re correct in that I shouldn’t believe everything that someone says because I agree with their overall conclusions but the point that I was trying to make was I suspect, although I have no way of proving at the moment, that there exists an answer. I’ve never yet seen a point raised on this case which hasn’t been disputed; whatever side the point originated from.

To be honest Scott, the point about me ignoring evidence is loaded with irony considering some of the claims made on here. The fingerprint evidence is proof, absolutely solid proof that Oswald fired that rifle. How many court cases would you get a Defence claiming planted fingerprints, planted fibres, faked purchase orders etc. No group of conspirators would have bothered with all of this ludicrously unnecessary complication. Of course the rifle was Oswald’s. Of course he smuggled it into work. Of course he shot Kennedy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's not what the Warren Commission Report says.

And your source has absolutely no idea how the US Postal Service works. Letters are not postmarked when they are received. A local Post Office collects letters and sends them by truck to a local sorting center. The sorting center then sorts, postmarks, and ships out the letters.

So a 10:30am postmark is well after the time Oswald mailed the letter. My guess is that Oswald got off the bus on his way to work, walked about a block to the Post Office, got and mailed his money order, and then walked a 1/2 mile to start work at 8am.

Of course. I should have spotted that but couldn’t he have got the money order before that and filled it in at home then dropped it into a mail box on his way to work that day. It then got stamped at the sorting office.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Question #1

Why, just after the Cuban Missile Crisis and at a time when the government wanted to avoid any escalation with the Soviet Union and with the general anti-communist feeling at the time would they have selected a recent defector to their plot which could only have fueled fear and paranoia that the Soviets had been involved in the assassination of the President? Oswald’s defection couldn’t have been kept secret.

I think you and I will agree on your primary point.

Americans of a certain age will remember that children practiced fallout response by getting under your school desk. (Interesting secret, being under a desk would save anyone from a nuclear attack on America. It would be useful if there was fallout from an American preemptive strike on Russia)

Yes the Cuban Missile Crisis plays an enormous role in the political situation and it’s influenced extends to the investigation This is not a short answer. Such is the norm in the study of the case.

Kennedy had assumed this invasion had been approved by Eisenhower. It had not. The generals in the room found JFK wanting, as he seemed concerned with the inevitable fate of the Cubans that landed at the Bay of Pigs. Some minds in the room saw JFK as a PT Boat commander rather than a president that sees the big picture. The Cuban “Americans” felt betrayed and desired revenge. No doubt they have been mislead about the expected level of US military support. Right wingers immediately accused Kennedy as being soft on Communism. These are violently inclined anti-Kennedy groups. The missile crisis is still on everyone’s mind when Lyndon Johnson insists that everyone come on board to serve on the Warren Commission as Johnson presents the assassination crisis to have a risk similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Phone call Nov 29, 1963

Senator Russell: Well, now, Mr. President, I just can’t serve on that commission..

President Johnson: Dick, it’s already been announced, and you can serve with anybody for the good of America. And this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than’s on the surface, and they’re—we got to take this out of the arena where they’re testifying it’s Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that, and that—kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour. And you’d put on your uniform in a minute.
Johnson uses this threat of nuclear war as a wrench, to tighten the nuts of whoever hesitates to serve him.

Oswald defection couldn’t have been kept secret. 100% yes.

Whether his defection was planned or unplanned. The FBI is interested. Is Oswald a patsy or a lone nut?? We will not find a smoking gun memo to prove this, such a document does not exist. We have only indicators.

if Oswald is a patsy, then his profile fits the needs of a plan that called for a loser to take the blame. The patsy role is discussed by KKK leader Milteer as a result of FBI informant Wille Somerset on 9 November.

MILTEER: There ain't any count down to it, we have just got to be sitting on go. Count down they can move in on you, and on go they can't. Count down is alright for a slow prepared operation, but in an emergency operation, you have got to be sitting on go.

SOMERSETT: Boy, if that Kennedy gets shot, we have got to know where we are at. Because you know that will be a real shake, if they do that.

MILTEER: They wouldn't leave any stone unturned there no way. They will pick up somebody within hours afterwards, if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off.

SOMERSETT: Oh, somebody is going to have to go to jail, if he gets killed.

While Somersett provides information that cannot be corroborated, he was never shown to be wrong. Consider that in the first week of April 1968 Somersett called Miami Police Lieutenant Charles Sapp to inform him he learned on April 1 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was going to be shot. The next day, King was killed at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee.

You mentioned that I hadn’t responded to your response to my question Scott but no matter what angle I look at Oswald from I see nothing but a disaffected loner acting entirely alone. The problem is that it’s easy to come up with motives for various people and organisations but this means little in reality. James Earl Ray wasn’t part of a conspiracy. He was a racist. Nothing more. We might as well add a few angry husbands in the case of JFK.

A point to make though is why would a group set up a Patsy instead of either allowing the gunman to escape or to set him up in a hotel as a fake suicide or have him killed in a shoot out with the police. With a patsy there would always be the chance of a cast iron alibi being found. But for all of these massive complications there was simply no need Scott. All that the plotters would be doing is creating rod after rod after rod for their own backs.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have to express a little surprise that no one on the conspiracy side has responded to my question about stating what they believe happened. I’m quite happy to say exactly what I think happened.

It would be interesting/instructive to know what those that favour conspiracy believe happened as there are different possibilities. This is purely out of curiosity and isn’t an excuse for a bit of point scoring as you all know the position of those that favour the lone gunman.

So could I ask which you support?

a) Oswald firing from the TSBD plus a Grassy Knoll gunman.
b) Someone else firing from the TSBD (with Oswald not firing at all) and a Grassy Knoll gunman.
c) No one firing from the TSBD but a gunman firing from another location plus a Grassy Knoll gunman.
d) Someone firing from somewhere other than the TSBD or the Grassy Knoll.