JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[spyglass]

Hi, I have a question.

I have only taken an interest on this subject on and off over the years, and so not that up to date on things, and clearly there are many well enformed students of the case on here.
The last book I read on it was "Mortal Error" that suggests quite convincingly that the fatal shot was fired accidentally by a following agent.
How does this theory hold up now, and what heavily goes against it?

Regards

[Fiver]

Oswald was likely a CIA asset.

Oswald would not have been an asset to any organization.

If Oswald worked for the CIA, something you have provided no evidence for, then that is strong evidence that the CIA did not plot to kill JFK. Using a CIA asset reduces plausible deniability. The CIA would not want their asset to be caught, so there would have been a car waiting to take Oswald to a new identity or a shallow grave. And a plan that deliberately sacrifices an asset is going to result in all of the other assets realizing they cannot trust you. At a minimum, it's a massive hit to morale. it also significantly increases the chance of someone betraying the plot and of the head plotter suffering an unexpected death.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi, I have a question.

I have only taken an interest on this subject on and off over the years, and so not that up to date on things, and clearly there are many well enformed students of the case on here.
The last book I read on it was "Mortal Error" that suggests quite convincingly that the fatal shot was fired accidentally by a following agent.
How does this theory hold up now, and what heavily goes against it?

Regards

Yes, that's a particular theory that I thought was highly possible and up until fairly recently.

It's no longer my favored scenario as to what transpired, but not something I would rule out either.

[Lewis C]

Hi, I have a question.

I have only taken an interest on this subject on and off over the years, and so not that up to date on things, and clearly there are many well enformed students of the case on here.
The last book I read on it was "Mortal Error" that suggests quite convincingly that the fatal shot was fired accidentally by a following agent.
How does this theory hold up now, and what heavily goes against it?

Regards

Hi spyglass,

To start with, based on where he was located, if this had happened, I don't see how everyone could have missed it.

[Lewis C]

Good post , of course non of this seemed to bother the warren commission.

But then again, their sole and only purpose and intructions was to show a single shooter and LHO was that man . He would have walked free on day one of a trial .

What part of that do you think should have interested the Warren Commission?

[FISHY1118]

Forget all the stories of how owsald was or wasn't an CIA agent , or why he didn't do this or didn't do that when he left the TSBD .

Show some concrete evidence that isn't contradicted by other evidence that Oswald was on the sixed floor of the TSBD the moment Kennedy was shot , and his fingerprints were found to be conclusively on the rifle that was tested for prints on the day of the assassination.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The ‘corrupt’ Warren Commission has become a meme over the years with the fires being fuelled by conspiracy theorist seeing every fault, every error in terms of a deliberate plan. The first pause for doubt about this should be the fact that Johnson had to persuade a reluctant Earl Warren to head it. If the desire was to form a corrupt government commission to arrive at a pre-arranged and false conclusion about the assassination could they really have done worse than to select as its head a man that all but worshipped Jack Kennedy? Warren was utterly bereft after his murder. How was this man going to be persuaded, against his wishes, to President over a betrayal of not only his own country but of the President that he saw almost as a son? Although it’s fashionable to assume that all institutions or senior figures are evil we should perhaps be conscious of getting greatly carried away with this kind of thinking and consider reality and the reality is that real patriots do exist. Earl Warren was certainly one of them and he was far from alone on that commission. It’s astonishing how easy people find it to casually accuse people of betraying their country. I realise that patriotism is often fashionably frowned on these days but we certainly shouldn’t assume the opposite, especially not in a group of commissioners, councils and staff researchers, many of whom had taught for their country in the war. Traitors exist of course but they tend not to congregate on government commissions in plain view. A reality check is needed.

After reading many books on the commission and its members (although I no longer have them) I would highly recommend Philip Shenon’s superb ‘A Cruel and Shocking Act’ which in absolutely no way glosses over the shortcomings of the commission. He dives right in with no bias to look at the men involved, their issues, the lack of cooperation leading to areas not being probed enough etc and he certainly doesn’t attempt to come down on any particular side. His research makes it clear why people think that a cover up went on. They had the CIA and the FBI obfuscating, lying and withholding evidence that would have shown them in a bad light. Is anyone surprised that J. Edgar Hoover didn’t want it known that the man that killed the President was under surveillance? Then they had Warren trying to get investigators to sidestep issues that would have caused pain and grief to the Kennedy family. Councils and researchers were constantly frustrated by what they saw as Warren’s over-protective attitude toward the family (hardly the attitude of someone seeking to lie to that very same family is if? Arguments occurred, councils threatened to resign over the brick walls they came up against. There were issues galore, problem after problem. Councils and researchers were quite open about these issues but none of them even suspected or suggested corruption.

These men were a mixture of all political persuasions. This wasn’t a right-wing stitch up. People love to take the easy step and portray anyone who doesn’t see the WC as corrupt as being ‘gullible’ or ‘in on it.’ I’d suggest a more nuanced view of the situation and a bit of non-conspiracy theorist reading plus some much needed common sense is required. The suggestion that this Commission of 34 (if memory serves) people could all be persuaded to find in favour of a lie to protect the murderers of the President is pretty much a not very funny joke. Added to that it’s lazy. They were called together by the government therefore they must have been ‘in on it’ which shouldn’t be given a moments credence. Containing errors - yes. Hampered in some quarters - yes. Corrupt - no.

[Fiver]

There were 4 men who benefited directly - LBJ who was under investigation for fraud and would be convicted, Allen Dulles head of CIA who got fired over Bay of Pigs, Hoover who was being forced into retirement and Nixon as payback from the MOB to rectify stealing the Election for Joe Kennedy. It had less to do with Vietnam and more to do with vendetta.

LBJ - the Box 13 scandal had occurred in 1948 and LBJ had won the case with the Supreme Court. LBJ was not being investigated for fraud in the Billie Sol Estes case, and Estes was convicted. LBJ never did anything to help Estes. LBJ got to be President for a little more than a year from JFK's death.

Allen Dulles had been out of the CIA for two years and it was being run by a man appointed by JFK. Dulles hated JFK, but he gained nothing from his death.

Hoover was facing mandatory retirement age. Hoover had plenty of dirt he could have used to destroy JFK's reputation if JFK tried to fire hum. There was no reason for Hoover to kill JFK.

Nixon had nothing to gain from JFK's assassination and no resources to offer the Conspiracy. But revealing the conspiracy would given Nixon a massive popularity boost and he wasn't a fan of Hoover or LBJ - destroying them would have been a bonus. No sane Conspirator would have tried to get Nixon to join.

The biggest beneficiary of JFK's death was Oswald's wife, Marina. It freed her from an abusive, unstable loser.

[Fiver]

Hi, I have a question.

I have only taken an interest on this subject on and off over the years, and so not that up to date on things, and clearly there are many well enformed students of the case on here.
The last book I read on it was "Mortal Error" that suggests quite convincingly that the fatal shot was fired accidentally by a following agent.
How does this theory hold up now, and what heavily goes against it?

Regards

What goes heavily against the theory is the Altgens photo.



The red arrow points out Agent Hickey. He is already standing and facing backwards. JFK's arms are raised to his throat, elbows up, clearly reacting to that shot. Hickey is facing the wrong direction to fire the fatal headshot.

[Fiver]

There is no real explanation as to why Tippit decided to pull alongside his quarry. If he was about to make the arrest of the century he might have been expected to make a quick call on his radio.

The description Tippit would have gotten was "slender white male, about 30 years old, 5 feet 10 inches and weighing about 165 pounds". Stopping to question someone who matches the description would be routine for Tippit. But as experienced police, Tippit would know that most people fitting that description would not be the killer. So he wasn't expecting the "arrest of the century". Oswald was, and he proved faster on the draw.

[Patrick Differ]

LBJ was under investigation for bribery on government contracts along with Bobby Baker. That case was not dropped until after the JFK assassination.
Dulles ran the CIA even after he was fired.
Hoover hated RFK and after he played recordings of MLK to Jackie Kennedy, JFK was infuriated as it showed how dangerous he was. Not to mention violating the Law and Constitution. Hoover was being forced to retire.
But irrespective of these theories, it's already known that Oswald was an asset tied to these forces. There is a reason documents have been witheld and thats to get at the truth.
There was NO magic bullet. That was debunked by the Secret Service agent who found the bullet in the car below Kennedy s feet. There had to be an additional shooter as a result.
Hopefully these latest documents reveal the truth. Another bit on Oswald. He was seen on the 2nd floor cafeteria room drinking a coke by a Dallas Policemen and depository manager 90 seconds after JFK was hit with the last shot. He was not out of breath and acted like he was unaware of what was going on. Out of the 40 plus employees in the Depository over 20 left the building and did not return. Yet within 20 minutes of the event an APB was put out for just Oswald. Hoover was clearly involved and already had the dossier on Oswald. Time will tell.

[Fiver]

Dulles ran the CIA even after he was fired.

Hoover was being forced to retire.

But irrespective of these theories, it's already known that Oswald was an asset tied to these forces.

As Wikipedia would say "citation needed". What are the sources for your claims that Dulles was still running the CIA. Hoover was being forced out, or that Oswald was an asset for either organization?

There is a reason documents have been witheld and thats to get at the truth.

So you think the lack of evidence for there being a Conspiracy is proof that there was a Conspiracy?

[Fiver]

There was NO magic bullet. That was debunked by the Secret Service agent who found the bullet in the car below Kennedy s feet. There had to be an additional shooter as a result.

In 2023, Paul Landis claimed he saw a fully intact bullet "sitting on the back seat ledge, where the cushion meets the metal on the car."

Landis claims he "So all the time I've been standing there, I've been kind of fumbling with the bullet in my pocket. I took it out and I set it by the president's left foot, and it was like a white cotton blanket on the table, and the bullet started to roll off the table, and I reached out and grabbed it, and there was a little wrinkle in the blanket. So I put the bullet so that it wouldn't roll off. It stopped in that blanket."

This would be a good time to note that Landis is selling a book and that his 2023 statements contradict his 1963 statements.

"By this time someone was lifting the President's body out of the right side of the car. Agent Hill helped Mrs. Kennedy out of the car, and I followed. Mrs. Kennedy's purse and hat and a cigarette lighter were on the back seat. I picked these three items up as I walked through the car and followed Mrs. Kennedy into the hospital.

The President's body was taken directly to an Emergency Room, and I think I remember Mrs. Kennedy following the people in but coming out almost immediately. The door to the Emergency Room was closed and I stayed by Mrs. Kennedy's side. Someone, in the meantime, had brought a chair for Mrs. Kennedy to sit in and she sat just outside of the Emergency Room. There were several people milling around and with the help of a nurse we cleared all unauthorized personnel out of the immediate area."

But Landis doesn't just contradict himself, he contradicts where bullet CE 399 was found, which was Connally's, not JFK's stretcher.

What Landis describes is a magic bullet - only he can see it, it lets him enter and exit the Emergency Room unseen by anyone, leave the bullet where no one else sees it, and then it magically teleports to Connally's stretcher, having acquired damage that Landis never saw, and teleporting two fragments of itself into Connally's wrist.

[cobalt]

Show some concrete evidence that isn't contradicted by other evidence that Oswald was on the sixed floor of the TSBD the moment Kennedy was shot , and his fingerprints were found to be conclusively on the rifle that was tested for prints on the day of the assassination.

The evidence that Oswald, or someone resembling him, was at the 6th floor window at the time of the shots comes from a bystander (or maybe bystanders) at street level. There is nobody from within the TSBD to confirm that.

No usable fingerprints were found on the rifle when it was sent to the FBI laboratory. However before it was sent, a sharp thinking lieutenant in the Dallas police station had lifted a palm print from underneath the stock. For whatever reason he did not disclose this at the time to the FBI. It was only when the rifle was returned without result that the lieutenant announced his 'lift.' This, when re-examined by the FBI on November 29th, one week after the assassination, was linked to the palm print of the now deceased Lee Harvey Oswald.

[FISHY1118]

The evidence that Oswald, or someone resembling him, was at the 6th floor window at the time of the shots comes from a bystander (or maybe bystanders) at street level. There is nobody from within the TSBD to confirm that.

No usable fingerprints were found on the rifle when it was sent to the FBI laboratory. However before it was sent, a sharp thinking lieutenant in the Dallas police station had lifted a palm print from underneath the stock. For whatever reason he did not disclose this at the time to the FBI. It was only when the rifle was returned without result that the lieutenant announced his 'lift.' This, when re-examined by the FBI on November 29th, one week after the assassination, was linked to the palm print of the now deceased Lee Harvey Oswald.

I'm not aware of the palm print you mentioned , however there is a Hoover memo that has been posted here already, that is dated 23rd November that says no conclusive prints were found on the rifle.

So any LHO prints found after that day as to try and tie Oswald to the rifle, were placed there.