JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

The shell casing pattern was tested and replicated.

The position of the shell casings tells us absolutely nothing about the trajectory of the bullets fired.

Anyone who believes in the magic bullet theory lives in a Fantasyland.

It's not magic. People try to make it impossible by not showing the bullet end on and by ignoring the actual positions of JFK and Connally. Modern forensics experts have repeatedly shown that it doesn't require magic.

For magic bullets, lets look at Oliver Stone.
* Bullet 1 from the Daltex misses everything and disappears without a trace.
* Bullet 2 from the Grassy Knoll curves to miss the crowds lining the street, the sign, and Connally to strike JFK in the throat and then disappears without a trace. Stone's pro-conspiracy consultant took one look at the re-enactment for the film and realized the shot was impossible.
* Bullet 3 from the Daltex is utterly silent, strikes JFK in the back, and then disappears without a trace.
* Bullet 4 from the Depository is utterly silent, curves to miss JFK, then curves again to hit Connally.
* Bullet 5 from the Grassy Knoll strikes JFK from the front and then disappears without leaving JFK's head.
* Bullet 6 from the Daltex is utterly silent, misses the limo and everyone in it, then travels through time to hit James Tague with a fragment before Bullet #5 hits JFK.

And even Stone was smart enough to not include Jim Garrison's fourth shooter behind a stone wall and fifth shooter firing from a storm drain.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As we know for a fact that there was no second gunman on the Knoll. And we know for a fact that no one outside of an asylum would have chosen Lee Harvey Oswald to have been a part of the most poorly conceived plan in the entire history of plans. And we know for a fact that the shots line up perfectly. Then there is no such thing as a magic bullet theory. It should be called the bullet fact.

Why is it that these facts are dismissed:

Oswald visited Ruth Paine’s on the Thursday for the first time ever on the day before the assassination.
Oswald left his wedding ring and a large (for LHO) quantity of cash (knowing that Marine usually had to beg for the tiniest sums)
Oswald had no lunch pack and carried a large package.
Oswald, according to coworkers, was the only man in Dallas to be unaware of the Presidents visit.
The snipers nest was on the floor where Oswald was working and was known to have been.
The rifle belonged to Oswald (the one that was kept at Ruth Paine’s was ‘strangely’ missing.)
It had his prints on it.
Cartons and the wrapping also had his prints on it.
He fled the scene.
He avoided the correct bus stop, jumped off the next bus, took a taxi and wouldn’t speak, then wouldn’t speak to the housekeeper.
He got dropped off a distance from his rooming house instead of outside of it.
The taxi driver saw him walk in a different direction then turn back.
He picked up a pistol (as all innocent men do of course)
He passed an area at just the time that someone kills Officer Tippit with Oswald’s gun before handing it back to him.
Unluckily many of the witnesses ID’d Oswald so the poor guy was unlucky enough to resemble the killer.
He lied and lied to the police (as innocent men always do)
He’d previously attempted to kill Governor Walker.
He had to be physically restrained by Marina from going out and shooting Nixon.
At the time of the murder Marina was convinced of his guilt, as was his brother as was those in the Russian emigré community.

Now, gents. I’m not going to bother responding to people going over the individual points because we have heard it all before. LHO couldn’t have acted more guiltily if someone had scripted the part of a guilty man for him and then told him to really ‘ham it up’. Added to this we have a bunch of plotters who have the wherewithal to set allegedly set up a fake inquest, to forge prints, documents, photos, x-rays, control witnesses etc and yet they relied almost entirely on luck.They picked a dupe/patsy/assassin (take your pick) that any even remotely intelligent person wouldn’t have touched with a barge pole and proceeded to drop him into the most convoluted plot ever. One that Dan Brown would have turned his nose up at. These plotters are so unutterably dense, so devoid of intelligence or planning skills that they go to the massive precaution of flooding the autopsy with alleged government ‘puppets’ and yet they forget to do the same at Parkland (even though they would actually have known beforehand that the President would have been taken there) Is that believable? No, not for a single second it’s not. So it has to be constantly ignored in the hope that it won’t get mentioned again.

It’s simply amazing that people can look at the above and say ‘conspiracy.’ You can only arrive at ‘conspiracy’ if you believe that we live in some kind of matrix where absolutely everything is a lie and not a single thing can be trusted.

Im not a CIA operative (honest) I have no military training, no knowledge of weaponry or ballistics and I’ve never, ever planned an assassination (honest), let alone the assassination of a president. But I have planned things. My work involved planning. I, like most people, know the basic principles - keep it simple because greater complexity provides greater risk of something going wrong. Set up contingency plans because errors occur. Put the right people in the right place. Don’t rely on good fortune. And if something requires secrecy involve as few people as possible. So why did our top plotters apply not a single one of these principles? And this was for the assassination of the President and not, as in my case, to insure that a customer got what they required. Why weren’t they bothered? Why didn’t it concern them that a thousand things could have gone wrong? Why weren’t they bothered about having their part in this murder revealed?

My genius plan for a presidential assassination:

Find an expert sniper willing to do the job.
Ensure that he has the best rifle on the market (but with all serial number removed to make it untraceable)
Place him in an empty room high in a building (note..there was no requirement that it had to be Dallas)
Preferably a building with a fire escape at the rear.
Maybe give him a bit of disguise, glasses, false beard, walking stick etc?
He ensures that he leaves no prints in the room.
On the day of the assassination have a car waiting at the rear of the building.
He wears gloves and shoots the President.
He leaves the gun, walks to the fire escape and exits.
The car drives him away.
He’s delivered to another car at a prearranged spot.
He’s either driven to an airstrip miles from the scene of the assassination. (Or, alternately, he sits tight somewhere for a few days before going to an airstrip).
A) He gets a plane out of the country with loads of cash, or B) he’s killed and dropped into the sea.

Game over. Kennedy dead. No way of tracing the gunman and even any physical description of him would have been wrong.

Now…is anyone going to say “wow Herlock! What a genius you are for coming up with such a brilliantly conceived, close to foolproof plan. You should work for the CIA.”

Or, would you say “ sounds like a fairly obvious, common sense plan to me.”

Follow on question - why didn’t our multi-agency, top level, mega-experienced, massively resourced plotters think of it then?

And there we have it in a nutshell. Clearly no conspiracy. It’s a complete invention by people over the years who have resorted to an obsession of a paranoid nature. Long past time to let it go imo.

[FISHY1118]

Claiming CE 399 was pristine is ignoring the evidence.



The fragments pulled from Connally matched CE 399.



There was no bullet hole in the windshield.



There's no such thing as "semi automatic bullets", that is a characteristic of the gun. Sgt. Gerald Hill assumed the shells came from a.38 automatic, but multiple witnesses saw the shooter had to manually eject the shells.

Tippet was killed with a mix of Winchester-Western and Remington Peters bullets. When apprehended, Oswald's gun had a mix of Winchester-Western and Remington Peters bullets. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the evidence that Oswald killed Tippet.



It was the same rifle and the backyard photos taken by Marina Oswald matched.



Careful, an actual fact just slipped into your list.



It is a remarkable list of pro-Conspiracy lies that you accept as true.



The case for Oswald killing Tippit would be a slam dunk. The case for Oswald killing JFK was not as strong, but still would probably lead to conviction.

Show me evidence the fragments removed from. Connally matched c399.

Show me evidence the rifle removed on the day of the assassination from the tsbd matched the one from Oswald photo ,

Do your research properly on the shells removed from Tippit, dont just assume or guess.

Do your research on the bullet hole seen by witnesses at parkland hospital,
Don't just use witnesses for your arguement then not allowed me the same.

In no universe would Oswald ever been convicted of killing jfk with the amount of evidence to show the warren commission was a sham.

[Patrick Differ]

Why did the government withold so many documents for so many years if it was all so cut and dry?
Like most Ive read many books but the conspiracy was set the second Ruby killed Oswald.
Having been to Dealy Plaza and walked it what struck me was the actual distances and angles. Its an assassination dream as Kennedy was a sitting duck. A shot from the knoll was a chip shot and it eerily conjurs the Zapruder film. That said a killer from the book depository with scope and decent rifle may have been able to pull it off but then you ask was that Oswald with a $12 dollar cheap Italian WW2 rifle?
I honestly don't know but many believe not.
The government is complicit in conspiracy theories by withholding files. An BTW, the FBI just found a large cache of JFK documents " it didn't know it had?"
it is frustrating but I stopped trusting government decades ago.
Peace Out

[cobalt]

Nobody had any reason to fingerprint Oswald's corpse at the funeral home.

I can't agree with that. There might have been a reason.

Planting a fingerprint is possible. But it carries a great risk as under closer examination the artificial nature of the print might become apparent. For this reason- one which could abort an entire trial- I am told that planting fingerprints was considered more of a risk than a reward. It was not done.

Therefore to plant a fingerprint you would need to do so from source: in this case Oswald's fingers and palms. Anything less on the gun barrel could have been contested. In fact it might have seen the heavens fall!

The bad news is that nowadays DNA can be planted anywhere so help you God.

[Fiver]

Now…is anyone going to say “wow Herlock! What a genius you are for coming up with such a brilliantly conceived, close to foolproof plan. You should work for the CIA.”

Or, would you say “ sounds like a fairly obvious, common sense plan to me.”

I would add only a couple points.
* Do not attack when the target is in a moving vehicle.

On the morning of November 22, 1963, JFK gave a little over three minute speech outside the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth. Three minutes standing on a raised platform behind a podium in the open air is a lot better choice for a competent conspiracy.

* Do not try to frame any individual.

It adds lots of unnecessary risk and cost.

[Fiver]

Show me evidence the fragments removed from. Connally matched c399.

It was proved in 1967 and again in 1977.

[scottnapa]

Hi, I have a question.

I have only taken an interest on this subject on and off over the years, and so not that up to date on things, and clearly there are many well enformed students of the case on here.
The last book I read on it was "Mortal Error" that suggests quite convincingly that the fatal shot was fired accidentally by a following agent.
How does this theory hold up now, and what heavily goes against it?

Regards

Mortal Error is a misguided investigation. He does a very good job on ballistics. However, the Secret Service didn't kill JFK by accident. There is sufficient evidence to show typical government CYA mixed in with critically applied obfuscation to make someone curious about all possibilities.

[Fiver]

Show me evidence the rifle removed on the day of the assassination from the tsbd matched the one from Oswald photo ,

Seriously?

* Cloth fiber analysis was consistent with, though not conclusive proof, of the fibers coming from the blanket Oswald kept his rifle in.
* The police photographed the rifle when it was found.
* A local new crews filmed the police carrying the rifle on the 6th floor.
* A news photographer took seven pictures of the rifle as it was carried out of the building.
* At the police station, the rifle was held up for the news to photograph.
* The FBI took several photos of the rifle when it was in their custody.
* Oswald's palm print was found on the rifle in a position that could only have occurred while the rifle was disassembled.
* Marina Oswald testified that she took the backyard photos of Oswald with the rifle..
* In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations had the photos examine by experts. They concluded it was the same rifle.
* The HSCA also had the backyard photos and surviving negative examined to see if they came from Oswald's camera. The experts concluded they were using methods that hadn't been invented in 1963.

I can understand questioning if Oswald was the shooter, but it was definitely Oswald's rifle.

[scottnapa]

The ‘corrupt’ Warren Commission has become a meme over the years with the fires being fuelled by conspiracy theorist seeing every fault, every error in terms of a deliberate plan. The first pause for doubt about this should be the fact that Johnson had to persuade a reluctant Earl Warren to head it. If the desire was to form a corrupt government commission to arrive at a pre-arranged and false conclusion about the assassination could they really have done worse than to select as its head a man that all but worshipped Jack Kennedy? Warren was utterly bereft after his murder. How was this man going to be persuaded, against his wishes, to President over a betrayal of not only his own country but of the President that he saw almost as a son? Although it’s fashionable to assume that all institutions or senior figures are evil we should perhaps be conscious of getting greatly carried away with this kind of thinking and consider reality and the reality is that real patriots do exist. Earl Warren was certainly one of them and he was far from alone on that commission. It’s astonishing how easy people find it to casually accuse people of betraying their country. I realise that patriotism is often fashionably frowned on these days but we certainly shouldn’t assume the opposite, especially not in a group of commissioners, councils and staff researchers, many of whom had taught for their country in the war. Traitors exist of course but they tend not to congregate on government commissions in plain view. A reality check is needed.

After reading many books on the commission and its members (although I no longer have them) I would highly recommend Philip Shenon’s superb ‘A Cruel and Shocking Act’ which in absolutely no way glosses over the shortcomings of the commission. He dives right in with no bias to look at the men involved, their issues, the lack of cooperation leading to areas not being probed enough etc and he certainly doesn’t attempt to come down on any particular side. His research makes it clear why people think that a cover up went on. They had the CIA and the FBI obfuscating, lying and withholding evidence that would have shown them in a bad light. Is anyone surprised that J. Edgar Hoover didn’t want it known that the man that killed the President was under surveillance? Then they had Warren trying to get investigators to sidestep issues that would have caused pain and grief to the Kennedy family. Councils and researchers were constantly frustrated by what they saw as Warren’s over-protective attitude toward the family (hardly the attitude of someone seeking to lie to that very same family is if? Arguments occurred, councils threatened to resign over the brick walls they came up against. There were issues galore, problem after problem. Councils and researchers were quite open about these issues but none of them even suspected or suggested corruption.

These men were a mixture of all political persuasions. This wasn’t a right-wing stitch up. People love to take the easy step and portray anyone who doesn’t see the WC as corrupt as being ‘gullible’ or ‘in on it.’ I’d suggest a more nuanced view of the situation and a bit of non-conspiracy theorist reading plus some much needed common sense is required. The suggestion that this Commission of 34 (if memory serves) people could all be persuaded to find in favour of a lie to protect the murderers of the President is pretty much a not very funny joke. Added to that it’s lazy. They were called together by the government therefore they must have been ‘in on it’ which shouldn’t be given a moments credence. Containing errors - yes. Hampered in some quarters - yes. Corrupt - no.

The Warren Commission had no investigators. Therefore the agenda of the individual agencies came in to play in ways that aligned the investigation politically.
Here an FBI agent testimony is altered to hide the fact that the FBI had illegal custody of evidence (Negating it's validity in any court of law.)

[scottnapa]

Seriously?

* Cloth fiber analysis was consistent with, though not conclusive proof, of the fibers coming from the blanket Oswald kept his rifle in.
* The police photographed the rifle when it was found.
* A local new crews filmed the police carrying the rifle on the 6th floor.
* A news photographer took seven pictures of the rifle as it was carried out of the building.
* At the police station, the rifle was held up for the news to photograph.
* The FBI took several photos of the rifle when it was in their custody.
* Oswald's palm print was found on the rifle in a position that could only have occurred while the rifle was disassembled.
* Marina Oswald testified that she took the backyard photos of Oswald with the rifle..
* In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations had the photos examine by experts. They concluded it was the same rifle.
* The HSCA also had the backyard photos and surviving negative examined to see if they came from Oswald's camera. The experts concluded they were using methods that hadn't been invented in 1963.

I can understand questioning if Oswald was the shooter, but it was definitely Oswald's rifle.

I have no issue with Marina Oswald taking the picture.
It is one of those things that change as you investigate. One starts with the Backyard Photo is altered and the Zapruder film is true. Now the Backyard Photo is real and the Zapruder film is altered. Both statements coming from the same CIA analyst.
The issues with the rifle are related to ordering and use. It should never have been shipped to a P O Box. It was paid for by a money order for $21.45 dated March 12.1963. The money order was cashed on February 15th.

[scottnapa]

Oswald would not have been an asset to any organization.

If Oswald worked for the CIA, something you have provided no evidence for, then that is strong evidence that the CIA did not plot to kill JFK. Using a CIA asset reduces plausible deniability. The CIA would not want their asset to be caught, so there would have been a car waiting to take Oswald to a new identity or a shallow grave. And a plan that deliberately sacrifices an asset is going to result in all of the other assets realizing they cannot trust you. At a minimum, it's a massive hit to morale. it also significantly increases the chance of someone betraying the plot and of the head plotter suffering an unexpected death.

Which Oswald didn't work for the CIA.
Oswald learned Russian and then Oswald the Marine "defected". Military Intelligence has a different talent pool than the CIA.

[scottnapa]

I think one of the biggest myths that need busting is that Oswald was a poor shot.

He was a Marine marksman, previously to that a sharpshooter these are marine gradings that are higher than Navy or Army equivalent, at distances twice as far as the fatal head shot.

While these targets were stationary given the incline in Elm street and a target moving away the car was virtually stationary to Oswald.

The carcano although an inexpensive weapon does not make anyone less dead when a bullet hits them in the head from it.

"Oswald was an average shot at best" Oliver Stone told us in his movie, if you squint your eyes and cross your fingers you might get away with saying Oswald was an average shot at worse. "Maggots Draw" was a total invention from stone.

Oswald was a good shot, his performance that day?...mediocre but it was enough to allow him carry out his murderous objective.

A common misconception. Of course there is some relationship between talent and actions taken. if you think Oswald shot the President, then you can excuse his mediocre scores because it is his performance on the 22nd can be lucky. Delgado describes Oswald as sloppy and uncaring at the range. Unwilling to work harder to better his scores.

I had a boss who went to the Sixth Floor museum and announced. "I could make that set."
I did not laugh. But it is a stupid comment. Assassination is to a video game. Can you hit the target is only a small portion of the act.
Assassinating the most important person in the world is an act of "suicide" Your life is over. My boss has a wife and two kids. He would have to think long and hard about as killing a president and would be dooming his wife and children to hate abuse, ridicule and potentially physical violence. Oswald is the ONLY American assassin who used a rifle. The only one with a wife and two children. The only one who claimed he was not responsible. "I am a patsy" is a unique statement. The only one who was in the military. The only one who turning in his passport and offered to give American military secrets to our #1 global enemy.
Maggie's Drawers is from testimony in the Warren Report Volume VIII page 235.

one question for you. How many bullets did Oswald possess for the MC rifle?

[FISHY1118]

It was proved in 1967 and again in 1977.

Not even close .


Dr. Humes gave his views on the C399 bullet during the Warren Commission hearings, more commonly by some as the “Magic Bullet” :

“I think that is most unlikely. … This missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of those locations. … I doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time. … Metallic fragments were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally’s thigh. I can’t conceive of where they came from this missile (C399). (WCR vol.2, pp374–76.)

Here we have Dr. Humes, head of the JFK autopsy, casting his doubts that the Magic Bullet (C399), that caused injuries to Connally. So the C399 bullet could easily be accepted as the C399 bullet by simply causing a shallow back wound in Kennedy. The reason why the C399 bullet is so central to this case, is that it was fired from the Carcano C2677 rifle, allegedly belonging to Oswald.

Further items that cast doubt into the Single Bullet Theory are:

• The trajectory of the bullet.
• The lack of damage to the bullet.
• The circumstances of the bullet’s discovery.
• The chain of possession of the bullet ( Or rather lack thereof ).

With a shallow back wound, this means an undercharge bullet, a dud, barely injuried JFK, who was able to call out in his Boston accent, “Oh God, I am hit,” that was heard by SS agent Roy Kellerman riding in the front seat of the limo.

Landis stated he placed the rear seat bullet on the President’s gurney when he entered the trauma room folling Mrs. Kennedy. Lndis admits there is the possibility that the bullet he placed could have transferred to another gurney, believed to be Connally’s when the two gurneys bumped into each other.

Finally, the Warren Commission conducted tests to see how identical bullets similar to C399 fired from a Carcano rifle would hold up, hitting similar bones:

Tests were carried out on behalf of the Warren Commission by the Department of Defense at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland. Two experiments suggested strongly that the CE 399 bullet had not caused Connally’s wounds:

• Bullets of the same type as CE 399 were fired into the wrist bones of ten human cadavers. All ten bullets were severely deformed, unlike CE 399.
• One bullet was fired into a goat’s rib, and was flattened substantially more than CE 399. Another bullet was fired into a block of gelatin, and was only moderately flattened, like CE 399.

In the words of Dr Joseph Dolce, the US Army’s most senior expert in wound ballistics, “one bullet striking the President’s neck, the Governor’s chest and wrist, should be badly deformed, as our experiments at the Edgewood Arsenal proved.” Dr Dolce was not called to testify before the Warren Commission. The Edgewood Arsenal report,
Edgewood Arsenal Bullet Tests
Edgewood Arsenal Bullet Tests The Warren Commission authorised ballistics tests to be carried out by the Department of Defense at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland. Excerpts from the report on these tests, Wound Ballistics of 6.5–mm Mannlicher–Carcano Ammunition , CRDLR 3264, by Alfred G. Olivier and Arthur J. Dziemian, are given below . Also included below is the text of a letter from Dr Joseph Dolce, a senior scientist at Edgewood Arsenal, commenting on the Warren Commission’s treatment of the evidence provided by the scientists. CE 399 and the Single–Bullet Theory The Warren Commission’s account of the assassination of President Kennedy required that all of the non–fatal wounds to Kennedy and Governor John Connally were caused by one specific bullet that had apparently been discovered on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital. For the commission’s case to be credible, it was necessary that one bullet had entered the president’s back, exited through his throat, entered Connally’s back close to his right armpit, smashed several inches of one rib, exited the right side of his chest, broken the bone at his wrist, and lodged itself in his left thigh: the single–bullet theory . If all of these injuries had not been caused by only one bullet, the assassination could not plausibly have been carried out by only one gunman. It was also necessary that Commission Exhibit 399 , the bullet apparently discovered on the stretcher, was the bullet that had caused all the injuries. The CE 399 bullet had been fired from the rifle that had been found in the Texas School Book Depository, and thus must have been involved in the assassination in some way. If CE 399 was not the single bullet that had caused all the non–fatal injuries: CE 399 must have been planted on the stretcher while Governor Connally was undergoing emergency surgery, or CE 399 must have been entered into evidence dishonestly at a later date. The commission’s case was made difficult by the fact that this bullet was in almost pristine condition: it was slightly flattened at the base, and it possessed a few scratches, but it was otherwise undamaged. The commission was obliged to demonstrate that this amount of damage to the bullet was consistent with the amount of damage caused to the victims, and in particular to the broken bones suffered by Governor Connally. The Results of the Edgewood Arsenal Tests In a general way, the results of the tests were helpful to the Warren Commission. Bullets of the type found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository could have caused the known injuries to Governor Connally. They could have caused the substantial injury to President Kennedy’s skull. Fragments from this type of bullet could have caused the reported damage to the car. In other ways, the tests were less helpful. The large number of tiny metallic fragments in the president’s skull, which are visible in the X–rays from the autopsy, do not appear to have been replicated in the tests. Such fragmentation is

http://22november1963.org.uk/edgewood-arsenal-bullet-tests

, was withheld from the public for ten years, and only made available as the result of a law suit under the Freedom of Information Act by the researcher Harold Weisberg.

The WCR never reported on the Edgewoo Arsenal Bullet Tests. This contradicts one of the most prolifict WCR defenders that claims everything you need to know is in the WCR. With the exception of key truths that countered the WCR.

[FISHY1118]

In the words of Dr Joseph Dolce, the US Army’s most senior expert in wound ballistics, “one bullet striking the President’s neck, the Governor’s chest and wrist, should be badly deformed, as our experiments at the Edgewood Arsenal proved.” Dr Dolce was not called to testify before the Warren Commission.

BOOMMMMMM !!!!!!!!!! Game over folks


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman .