JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[The Rookie Detective]

The evidence that Oswald, or someone resembling him, was at the 6th floor window at the time of the shots comes from a bystander (or maybe bystanders) at street level. There is nobody from within the TSBD to confirm that.

No usable fingerprints were found on the rifle when it was sent to the FBI laboratory. However before it was sent, a sharp thinking lieutenant in the Dallas police station had lifted a palm print from underneath the stock. For whatever reason he did not disclose this at the time to the FBI. It was only when the rifle was returned without result that the lieutenant announced his 'lift.' This, when re-examined by the FBI on November 29th, one week after the assassination, was linked to the palm print of the now deceased Lee Harvey Oswald.

That may imply that the lieutenant planted evidence posthumously in a bid to frame Oswald, and that the palm print was taken post mortem.

The shooter may have been linked to the Dallas PD

[cobalt]

That has long been the implication though it falls well short of being evidence.
The suspicious part has to be why the lieutenant did not tell the FBI about the palm print lift on 22nd November? He was handling the biggest case in his entire career and must have been excited to obtain a 'lift,' so it is puzzling he did not pass on this terrific discovery immediately.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Although I no longer have access to my books and notes i can still dip into David Von Pein’s website where you can often see him tearing lumps out of Jim DiEugenio. One of my issues when previously posting on this thread was that a few (not all) posters admitted that they had only read from the pro-conspiracy whilst I contended (and still do) that both sides need to be investigated. There are so many real ‘experts’ on this case and by ‘expert’ I mean people that know the details to an amazing level through years of study. I’ve no doubt that DiEugenio could tell you Jack Ruby’s shoe size and Buell Frazer’s favourite beer but this can make something sound more impressive and believable than it actually is. So, here is a single post about the prints from DVP. There are more detailed ones of course.


“Many, many people believe Lee Harvey Oswald was completely innocent of
murdering President Kennedy in November of 1963. They think Oswald was
nothing more than an unwitting "Patsy", set up and framed to take the
fall after the tragic assassination of America's 35th President.

This "Patsy" viewpoint is just pure nonsense, IMHO. There is so much
evidence verifying Oswald's guilt (evidence that any "Patsy plotters"
themselves could not possibly have "controlled"), that any such "Patsy"
notions fall completely apart upon even a cursory glance at the
evidence in the case.

Oswald's own rifle was found on the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building. .... Oswald (or someone who resembled Oswald) was
seen by witnesses in the sniper's window on that same 6th Floor. .... And
Oswald's fingerprints were found on boxes within the Sniper's Nest.

In addition to the above, there's also another very incriminating set of
Oswald prints found on that sixth floor of the Depository:
Oswald's fingerprints were on the homemade paper bag which was found
right next to the Sniper's Nest window. ..... This information re. the
bag is detailed on Page #135 of the Warren Commission Report.

Three different fingerprint experts identified the TWO prints lifted
from the paper bag as those of Lee Harvey Oswald. Sebastian F. Latona
of the FBI first IDed the prints as positively being Oswald's. Then, in
a separate independent examination of the prints found on the bag, two
other experts (Ronald G. Wittmus of the FBI and Arthur Mandella of the
New York City Police Dept.) came back with the very same results.

It's also very interesting to note just exactly which prints of Oswald's
were discovered on the paper bag and WHERE, in particular, one of the
prints was located. The two prints discovered on the bag were Oswald's
left index finger and the other (the key one in a crucial respect) being
Oswald's right palmprint.

LHO's right palmprint was found on the END of the CLOSED side of the
bag -- indicating that Oswald had held the bag in such a manner where
his right palm was supporting the weight of whatever was inside the bag,
just exactly matching Wesley Frazier's testimony of how Oswald carried
the bag into the TSBD back entrance the morning of November 22 [2 H 239].

Via Wesley Frazier's Nov. 22 affidavit (providing solid evidence that
Oswald did, indeed, WALK INTO the back door of the Depository WITH
PACKAGE IN HAND, rather than empty-handed) --- "I saw him go in the
back door at the Loading Dock of the building that we work in, and he
still had the package under his arm."

In my view, this valuable and incriminating evidence against Oswald is
quite possibly the BEST "print" evidence there is in the whole case.
Oswald's own prints being found on his very own rifle ARE rather
incriminating, yes. But, as conspiracy promoters like to point out with
zealous glee, it's possible that the print taken from the rifle by the
DPD might have been left there by Oswald at some time prior to November
22 (since he was the owner of the weapon since March of 1963).

And the other hard, physical evidence that exists (fingerprint-wise)
suggesting very strongly that Oswald was at the sniper's window at
some point on November 22nd is the evidence of Oswald's prints (three
of them) being found on two of the boxes that were found INSIDE THE
SNIPER'S NEST ITSELF [see CE1301 and CE1302].

This "box" evidence is very strong to support the idea that Oswald was
present at that southeast corner window on Nov. 22nd, but (as CTers
will also point out) it doesn't HAVE to mean that LHO "constructed" the
"Nest" or that he was at the window with a rifle at precisely 12:30 PM
shooting at anybody. This due to the fact that, as an "order filler" for
the Depository, Oswald obviously COULD conceivably have touched
or handled those exact cartons sometime prior to the assassination.
Although the LOCATION of the prints on the cartons, IMO, is quite
compelling and interesting (in an "Oswald-did-it" kind of fashion).

PLUS: As I said, the cartons with LHO's prints were NOT just the
cartons stacked high up all around the "Nest" (i.e., the "shielding"
cartons on the outside of the SN).

But, instead, the Oswald prints were found WITHIN the Nest itself --
on the box the sniper would have used to probably SIT on while
aiming his rifle; AND two prints on one of the exact boxes that was
used as a 'rifle rest' by the assassin.

I'd like to know the odds that ONLY Oswald's prints would have been
found on those PRECISE boxes, while no other DISCERNIBLE prints could
be lifted off of them?

Did the "plotters" who many conspiracy theorists say framed Oswald
as their patsy just get extremely lucky and PICK AT RANDOM two boxes
to place INSIDE the bowels of their Sniper's Perch which just happened
to have three of Lee Harvey Oswald's prints on them?

Just exactly HOW did these crack conspirators orchestrate this "plan"
so perfectly to ensure that ONLY OSWALD'S fingerprints and palmprints
would be found on those particular boxes? How did they KNOW for certain
which cartons on the sixth floor Oswald touched and which ones he had
not handled? More incredible foresight on the part of the plotters it
would appear.

The fingerprints on the paper bag are also very damaging to Oswald
and indicative of guilt (more so than even the prints on the rifle or his
prints on the boxes), because it places Lee Harvey Oswald -- via his
identifiable, verifiable fingerprints -- at just EXACTLY the same location
where three cartridge cases were also found (with all of these shells
being linked to Oswald's rifle) and just exactly the same location --
the 6th-Floor Sniper's Nest -- where witnesses saw a man who
resembled Oswald.

Plus: The "bag" prints place Oswald's fingerprints on an item (the
brown bag) that has no logical or explainable or valid reason to be
where we find it after the assassination -- just lying on the floor below
the window from where rifle shots were fired at President Kennedy.

I cannot see ANY possible wiggle room for CTers with regard to this
very strong fingerprint evidence on the paper bag itself -- given the
location of the prints on the bag, plus WHERE the bag was found, plus
Wesley Frazier's testimony about seeing Oswald carrying a very
similar-looking paper bag into the Depository at approximately 8:00 AM
on Nov. 22nd, plus the OTHER "Oswald print" evidence found on the very
same sixth floor (on the rifle itself and on the two SN boxes).

HOW can this evidence be twisted and turned into a conspiracy-favoring
argument which has Oswald NOT at that Sniper's Nest window at some
point during the day of November 22, 1963? How?

Do conspiracy buffs think that Oswald just happened to unwrap his
"curtain rods" right beneath the sniper's window, and then just left
the bag in the Nest (and also, evidently, just DITCHED these "rods"
somewhere, because we know he didn't enter his roominghouse with
any curtain rods at 1:00 PM; nor were any rods found inside the TSBD
after the shooting)?

One way some conspiracy kooks have tried to wrangle out of Oswald's
obvious guilt and obvious presence at that 6th-Floor window on 11/22/63
has been to claim that the Dallas Police "planted" the bag underneath
the sniper's window after the shooting in an effort to frame Oswald.

This theory is about as believable as the "Patsy" theory as a whole (which
is wholly-UNBELIEVABLE right from the get-go, IMO). Because -- we'd
then have to believe that the DPD had somehow been able to "plant"
Oswald's prints on a "fake" bag (without any non-plotters noticing of
course, as per the norm with ALL conspiracy theories -- no non-conspirators
ever notice a thing, amazingly).

Or, we'd have to believe that the DPD just MADE UP from whole cloth the "fingerprints" story concerning the bag. Which, of course, also must mean
that the THREE fingerprint experts mentioned earlier (Latona, Wittmus,
and Mandella) are part of the "Frame The Patsy" plot, because they ALL
three said they had examined the bag [CE142] and found Oswald's prints
on that particular brown paper bag.”

[Geddy2112]

I've heard Russell Edwards has actually discovered the bullet that hit JFK in the head, he bought it from a member of the secret service's wife who just happened to be in Dallas that day and snaffled it before it could be entered into evidence.

[Patrick Differ]

Bullets are measured by grain weight and there was more weight by grain in Connelly than from the so called Arlen Spector bullet. The magic bullet had to fit the government narrative. Connelly also said he knows for a fact Kennedy was hit first by a seperate bullet. He should know.
Do your own research, the best sources are documents held in the Archives at University of Maryland. See what finally gets released.

JFK was killed in LBJs town. His town and his Law Enforcement. Follow the money on this one as it relates to who benefited financially..like the Military Industrial Complex...in Texas. LBJ, Dulles, Nixon, Bush..all Texans.
Its as bad as trying to identify Jack the Ripper.

Food for thought.

[Fiver]

Another bit on Oswald. He was seen on the 2nd floor cafeteria room drinking a coke by a Dallas Policemen and depository manager 90 seconds after JFK was hit with the last shot.

That is not an accurate description of Officer Baker's or Roy Truly's testimony.

Mr. BELIN - Was he carrying anything in his hands?
Mr. BAKER - He had nothing at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?
Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure. I did.

He was not out of breath and acted like he was unaware of what was going on.

The testimony does support this.

Representative BOGGS -When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?
Mr. BAKER - It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.
Representative BOGGS -Was he calm and collected?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit.
Mr. BELIN - Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?
Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?
Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.

Which is bizarre behavior on Oswald's part. How would you react if a policeman ran up and pointed his pistol at you? And then your boss ran up and said you worked there? And then they both ran up the stairs?

And the rather than showing the slightest interest in why the police was hunting for someone, Oswald just walks off. He doesn't ask questions. He doesn't talk to anyone about it. He just walks off.

Out of the 40 plus employees in the Depository over 20 left the building and did not return.

There were 51 Book Depository employees. Most were outside the building at the time of the shooting. Most of those outside the building went back in side and the rest hung around outside. Oswald was the only one inside the building to leave the building. Oswald was the only one to leave the area immediately after the shooting.

Yet within 20 minutes of the event an APB was put out for just Oswald.

The APB was "the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately thirty; slender build; height five feet, ten inches; weight 165 pounds...". It did not name the suspect.

Oswald was first noticed to be missing bu Roy Truly at around 1:30. That's an hour after the JFK shooting, 45 minutes after the suspect APB.

Hoover was clearly involved and already had the dossier on Oswald. Time will tell.

We're still waiting for you to provide any evidence that Hoover was involved.

[cobalt]

Oswald was certainly one cool dude as he shrugged off police attention a mere 90 seconds after shooting the President of the United States. The CIA could have used a man like that. And he was equally cool under interrogation when inside Dallas police station. His midnight media conference is evidence of that as well.

Which makes it slightly odd that he reacted so badly to a routine stop by JD Tippit. I've questioned why Tippit stopped Oswald (if it was indeed Oswald) in the casual manner he did. I'm not convinced that it had much to do with the generic description that had been issued in relation to a shooting a few miles away. More likely is that Tippit, an experienced officer, spotted someone who looked a bit suspicious and decided to check him out. Just basic routine policing. That would explain why Tippit was taken unawares when the suspect shot him. Tippit would surely have been more guarded if he thought he was apprehending a killer.

Oswald had no obvious reason to shoot Tippit. He had stashed the rifle at the TSBD presumably to buy himself some time to escape undetected (although why he was wandering the streets of Dallas instead of boarding the first Greyhound bus is hard to fathom.) The gun, even if found, could not at that point be linked to him. His absence from the TSBD could hardly have been confirmed in such a short time. He was not known to the police. All Oswald had to do was give a name, (the fake Hidell ID would have been adequate) an address and say he was headed off to the Texas Theatre. We know he had the sang froid to carry that much off. He'd had a policeman point a gun in his face at the TSBD and remained calm, same as when a posse of armed police swarmed inside the Texas Theatre.

The only explanation I can offer for his behaviour is that Tippit indicated he wanted to search Oswald. It was while being searched inside the Texas Theatre that Oswald lost his cool so maybe the same happened with Tippit.

[Fiver]

I'm not aware of the palm print you mentioned , however there is a Hoover memo that has been posted here already, that is dated 23rd November that says no conclusive prints were found on the rifle.

So any LHO prints found after that day as to try and tie Oswald to the rifle, were placed there.

Five Dallas crime lab detectives saw the palm print before the rifle was given to the FBI. There were also Oswald's prints on the paper bag.

But this does show the FBI was either not a part of any Conspiracy or that the Conspiracy was grossly incompetent. They had ample opportunity to plant prints or to declare that the triggerguard prints matched Oswald, but they didn't.

[Patrick Differ]

My last word on Hoover. He was a choirboy and the epitome of integrity in law enforcement. Despite the fact that he used illegal wire tapping and blackmail to stay in power. In truth he was a racist germophobe who took credit for work that others did. He was dispicable.
Mark North did a book on him years ago regarding his treasonous behavior. No I'm not quoting anything. Go read Hoover if interested. Two days after the JFK murder, our beloved Hoover sent a memo to his subs that they had to control the Oswald narrative so the murder did not get out of control. Public domain.I remember Oswald on TV being marched to his death as a Chicago Mob lowlife named Jack Ruby murders the so called killer. All controlled and wrapped up nicely by Johnsons Dallas police.
Oh no...it's a conspiracy theory. One thing I've learned about American disinformation is that it begins with the words..it's another conspiracy theory. Ruby wasn't in the MOB.. Right.
I don't know what the truth is but JFK hired RFK as Attorney General because there was no one else that he could trust. They especially did not trust the blackmailer Hoover.
Did Hoover know about Dallas beforehand, Miami and Chicago beforehand? Hoover despised the Kennedys and the feeling was mutual. Hoover was quick to cover up...for the good of the cause.
If Kennedy were re-elected he could have forced Hoover out or put him behind a desk. He had enough on Hoovers lifestyle to discredit him. Hoover was a survivor but he also broke laws he took an oath to uphold. LBJ was his best friend and made him Director for Life. But its a conspiracy theory..it didn't happen that way.

[cobalt]

Why didn't the five Dallas crime lab detectives pass on the palm print along with the rifle on 22nd November? As I understand it, in lifting the print they removed it at the same time, so there was no way the FBI could have detected anything.

Fingerprints on the paper bag don't amount to much. Buell Frazier was adamant the bag he saw was smaller, even when being given the third degree inside Dallas police station. He has never changed his story since. And there is no forensic evidence that the paper bag and the rifle were ever in contact with each other.

[Fiver]

That has long been the implication though it falls well short of being evidence.
The suspicious part has to be why the lieutenant did not tell the FBI about the palm print lift on 22nd November? He was handling the biggest case in his entire career and must have been excited to obtain a 'lift,' so it is puzzling he did not pass on this terrific discovery immediately.

Different organizations were scrambling for credit. The Dallas police handed everything that the FBI demanded, but kept rest. The FBI was mightily embarrassed that the Dallas police were able to get and identify prints when the FBI couldn't and Hoover was hopping mad.

[FISHY1118]

Five Dallas crime lab detectives saw the palm print before the rifle was given to the FBI. There were also Oswald's prints on the paper bag.

But this does show the FBI was either not a part of any Conspiracy or that the Conspiracy was grossly incompetent. They had ample opportunity to plant prints or to declare that the triggerguard prints matched Oswald, but they didn't.

And yet we have the FBI memo from Hoover stating " no fingerprints could be identified" as conclusively being that of LHO.

If the fbi were trying to tie Oswald to the rifle via any fingerprints or palm prints they did a lousy job, .

How did they miss the palm print?

There was no mention of it by Hoover.

It was added after that memo.

[Fiver]

Bullets are measured by grain weight and there was more weight by grain in Connelly than from the so called Arlen Spector bullet.

That is incorrect.

Connelly also said he knows for a fact Kennedy was hit first by a seperate bullet. He should know.

Connally believed that Oswald fired three shots - the first hit JFK in the throat, the second hit Connally in the back, the third hit JFK in the head. Connally never saw JFK get hit.

"I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them."

Connally did think all three shots came from the same location, behind and above.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression then as to the source of the shot?
Governor CONNALLY. From back over my right shoulder which, again, was where immediately when I heard the first shot I identified the sound as coming back over my right-shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. At an elevation?
Governor CONNALLY. At an elevation. I would have guessed at an elevation.
Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me.
Governor CONNALLY. Well, that is all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an impression as to the source of the third shot?
Governor CONNALLY. The same. I would say the same.

Connally did not hear the shot that hit him, nor did he notice his wrist and thigh woulds at the time.

Connally did not believe in a Conspiracy.

Representative BOGGS. Have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy and your own injury, that there was a conspiracy here of any kind?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.
Representative BOGGS. What is your theory about what happened?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, it is pure theory based on nothing more than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this Commission.
But I think you had an individual here with a completely warped, demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: First, to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. And I think he deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing that I can think of.

[Fiver]

JFK was killed in LBJs town. His town and his Law Enforcement. Follow the money on this one as it relates to who benefited financially..like the Military Industrial Complex...in Texas. LBJ, Dulles, Nixon, Bush..all Texans.

* In the 1948 Democratic primary, Dallas went for Stevenson, not LBJ. Dallas was not his town.
* Dulles was from New York, not Texas, and gained nothing from JFK's death.
* Nixon was from California, not Texas, and gained nothing from JFK's death.
* Bush didn't move to Texas until he was an adult. Bush gained nothing from JFK's death and at that time was only Chairman of the Harris County Republican Party.

And we're still waiting for you to provide one lick of evidence that any of these men or any of the others that you accuse had anything to do with JFK's assassination.

[Fiver]

My last word on Hoover. He was a choirboy and the epitome of integrity in law enforcement. Despite the fact that he used illegal wire tapping and blackmail to stay in power. In truth he was a racist germophobe who took credit for work that others did. He was dispicable.

Nobody is saying that Hoover was good or nice. We are saying he was neither stupid nor insane.

If Hoover had suggested assassinating JFK to anyone, the smart thing to do would be to:
* Tell Hoover you need to do some research.
* Go to Bobby Kennedy, tell him everything.
* Report back to Hoover wearing a wire.
* Become the new head of the FBI and a world-famous hero.
* Hoover gets executed and no one, except maybe Clyde Tolson, sheds a tear.