JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

Good points Fiver

Especially the one about Oswald being allowed to speak in front of TV cameras. Why would conspirators allow that massively risky exercise? They wouldn’t have of course.

The often repeated “I’m just a patsy,” is actually very important imo. As we know, a patsy is simply someone that has been blamed for something that he/she didn’t do. This is confirmed of course by Oswald himself who, in the previous sentence, tells reporters that he’s only been arrested because he’d lived in the Soviet Union. He was simply claiming to have been innocent of the murders of Kennedy and Tippit. But, and this is an important point which CT’s refuse to address, at no point does he ever mention a conspiracy or about anyone else being involved. The game was up…..he was in custody with no chance of rescue or escape….he had the perfect chance in front of the worlds media to spill the beans but does he? Absolutely not, because there were no beans to spill of course. He was overwhelmingly guilt of killing Kennedy alone.

With no evidence to suggest any such thing.

No fingerprints on the rifle ,no eyewitness that claim they saw Oswald on the six floor tsbd at the time Kennedy was shot.

No one who saw Oswald fire any rifle .

Pretty overwhelming stuff .

[FISHY1118]

So you still can’t post a couple Fishy? It can’t be that difficult if there are so many?

I'm just surprised you can't recall any

[FISHY1118]

Yes there is though Fishy, an absolute mountain of it. Some of which you and others try to dismiss with words like ‘fake’ an ‘forgery.’ But these things have been examined minutely. For example multiple experts say after examination that there is absolutely no evidence of forgery with the Neely Street photos. I believe that they were also sent to 2 or 3 top university laboratories and all have said that there is zero evidence of forgery. So how can it be a reasoned viewpoint when someone simply refuses to accept the testimony of numerous established experts. This would stand up in any court of law and the photographs were looked at again by experts at the HSCA and they saw no evidence of forgery (and the HSCA certain weren’t WC apologists)

Depends on what evidence you believe in herlock .

You choose the WC, I chose that which contradicts it . So we disagree

Whether it the magic bullet theory , autopsy pics , ZP still pics
there is a mountain of testimony that contradicts the official version by people who were there at the time .

Again I chose them over what you and others have posted .

[Aethelwulf]

George showed plenty of that evidence that was clearly right.

It was mostly the material GB posted that I was referring to.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just in case anyone isn’t aware of how the Warren Commission was set up. It was agreed that the case should be split up into 6 areas of investigation with each area having a senior and junior lawyer working full-time on it. Except for area 6 which was a one man show. They also had a staff of experts to help them.

Area 1 - To create a timeline between Kennedy leaving the White House on the 21st and his casket arriving back there.

Senior Lawyer - Francis Adams.
Junior Lawyer - Arlen Specter.

Area 2 - To test and assess the evidence for Oswald’s guilt.

Senior Lawyer - Joseph Ball.
Junior Lawyer - David Bellin.

Area 3 - An investigation into Oswald’s life and background.

Senior Lawyer - Albert Jenner.
Junior Lawyer - Wesley J. Liebeler.

Area 4 - An investigation into the possibility of conspiracy (focusing mainly on Russia and Cuba)

Senior Lawyer - William Coleman.
Junior Lawyer - David Slawson.

Area 5 - To investigate Jack Ruby and to search for any links between him and Oswald.

Senior Lawyer - Leon Hubert.
Junior Lawyer Burt Griffin.

Area 6 - To examine the quality of the protection given to the President and to examine the history of law enforcement protection.

Senior Lawyer - Samuel Stern, working alone.


Then they had 11 staff member with specific areas of expertise to undertake various tasks. For example, Alfred Goldberg was an Airforce historian. Richard M. Mosk provided a report on Oswald’s marksmanship and a study of his reading habits. Edward A. Conroy and John J. O’Brien were tax agents looking into Oswald’s finances. Norman Redlich was Rankin’s chief deputy who set himself the task of reading every single document to decide which areas required them.

It’s also worthy mentioning that William Coleman was a black man who worked closely with Martin Luther King so hardly the kind of man who would be asked to join a corrupt commission performing a cover-up over the murder of the president that was pushing for civil rights.

This simply wasn’t a corrupt commission. It just couldn’t have been set up. Many of these man where absolutely Kennedy-worshippers (including Warren himself) The fact that they were so vocal in their criticisms of the CIA and the FBI proves this. Did they make mistakes….of course they did. No investigation can be anything like perfect. But corrupt….not a chance.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is fairly typical of the assumptions being made on this thread.

Even if it were proven that there was a second gunman, and it hasn't, that does not prove a conspiracy. Two gunmen could both have been acting independantly.

Exactly. Bianchi and Buono, Brady and Hindley, Duffy and Mulcahy and others worked as a ‘team’ but weren’t part of any larger conspiracy.

Rejecting the single bullet theory doesn't mean they decided there was more than one gunman. Connally thought that Kennedy was hit by the first and third bullets, and he himself by the second. He thought there were three shots, all from the rear. I am not aware of the Commission members deciding there was a conspiracy.

Many of the commission lawyers like Rankin and Griffin to name but two, absolutely expected to find some kind of conspiracy involving the Russians, the Cubans or some rabid segregationists but they found no such evidence. Reading about the commission as I’m doing at the moment shows clearly the honest intentions. They openly complained in writing about the FBI and the CIA concealing evidence from them. Why would a commission seeking to ‘hide’ a cover-up d this? They wouldn’t of course. Those 2 agencies held back, or tried to hold back, evidence purely to cover their own incompetence and to protect their own reputations. The FBI’s report was useless. They came to the conclusion that Kennedy and Connally were hit by 2 separate bullets from the same gun which was clearly physically impossible.

In any event, what is almost always ignored, is that the Commission members were just figureheads. They did virtually nothing to collect and verify information etc. That was done by a team of lawyers, who sorted through all the information provided, made further checks as required, and presented the evidence to the Commission. Individual Commission members only attended some of the meetings, briefings and interviews. They had their own agendas. Ford was writing a book about their work, was keeping in close contact with Hoover, and was always doing whatever seemed to suit his political interests at the time. Disagreeing with Warren, for example, seemed politically advantageous. Russell, as a matter of principle, disagreed with Warren on almost everything, from day one. He made it clear to LBJ that he didn't want to serve on the Commission with Warren. Dulles only attended some of the meetings and was inclined to fall asleep!

There we’re serious concerns about how doddery Dulles was at this point and whether he was physically fit for the job. Warren would arrive for an hour in the morning then go off to perform his duties as Chief Justice returning at around 5 to catch up on WC business. Some felt that lawyer Francis Adam’s should step down due to his poor attendance. He was still working for his busy legal practice. Many of the lawyers were attending to their own work simultaneously.

Whilst accepting that much information was suppressed, I am far more interested in the information collected by the team of unbiased lawyers, than the conclusions reached by a Commission prejudiced by the pressures of politics etc.

Good post Doc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once you assume there is a Conspiracy, you interpret everything through that lens.

* Why would a competent Conspiracy leave only three empty shell casings if they had fired more than 3 shots?

* Oswald's Carcano was tested and it worked.

* Lots of criminals claim innocence. That doesn't mean they're innocent.



* Oswald wasn't killed resisting arrest, even though he tried to shoot a police officer.
* Oswald was allowed to speak to the media.
* Oswald was killed over 45 hours after his arrest.
* Oswald would have been transferred before Jack Ruby arrived if Oswald hadn't decided he wanted to wear a sweater and then delayed further by changing to a different sweater. Are you saying Oswald was a full participant in a plan to be murdered?
* Dallas police tackled Ruby quickly enough that he only got off one shot.

Perhaps they didn't read their memo from the Conspiracy?

Good points Fiver

Especially the one about Oswald being allowed to speak in front of TV cameras. Why would conspirators allow that massively risky exercise? They wouldn’t have of course.

The often repeated “I’m just a patsy,” is actually very important imo. As we know, a patsy is simply someone that has been blamed for something that he/she didn’t do. This is confirmed of course by Oswald himself who, in the previous sentence, tells reporters that he’s only been arrested because he’d lived in the Soviet Union. He was simply claiming to have been innocent of the murders of Kennedy and Tippit. But, and this is an important point which CT’s refuse to address, at no point does he ever mention a conspiracy or about anyone else being involved. The game was up…..he was in custody with no chance of rescue or escape….he had the perfect chance in front of the worlds media to spill the beans but does he? Absolutely not, because there were no beans to spill of course. He was overwhelmingly guilt of killing Kennedy alone.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Just to be clear about one thing: some of the Commission members rejected the Single Bullet Theory, as did Governor Connally.

That means they realised that there was more than one gunman and, consequently, a conspiracy.

This is fairly typical of the assumptions being made on this thread.

Even if it were proven that there was a second gunman, and it hasn't, that does not prove a conspiracy. Two gunmen could both have been acting independantly.

Rejecting the single bullet theory doesn't mean they decided there was more than one gunman. Connally thought that Kennedy was hit by the first and third bullets, and he himself by the second. He thought there were three shots, all from the rear. I am not aware of the Commission members deciding there was a conspiracy.

In any event, what is almost always ignored, is that the Commission members were just figureheads. They did virtually nothing to collect and verify information etc. That was done by a team of lawyers, who sorted through all the information provided, made further checks as required, and presented the evidence to the Commission. Individual Commission members only attended some of the meetings, briefings and interviews. They had their own agendas. Ford was writing a book about their work, was keeping in close contact with Hoover, and was always doing whatever seemed to suit his political interests at the time. Disagreeing with Warren, for example, seemed politically advantageous. Russell, as a matter of principle, disagreed with Warren on almost everything, from day one. He made it clear to LBJ that he didn't want to serve on the Commission with Warren. Dulles only attended some of the meetings and was inclined to fall asleep!

Whilst accepting that much information was suppressed, I am far more interested in the information collected by the team of unbiased lawyers, than the conclusions reached by a Commission prejudiced by the pressures of politics etc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just as there is no conclusive evidence (not the fabricated made up kind we've seen produced of late) Oswald did shoot Kennedy ,this has also been shown on this thread over many weeks.

Yes there is though Fishy, an absolute mountain of it. Some of which you and others try to dismiss with words like ‘fake’ an ‘forgery.’ But these things have been examined minutely. For example multiple experts say after examination that there is absolutely no evidence of forgery with the Neely Street photos. I believe that they were also sent to 2 or 3 top university laboratories and all have said that there is zero evidence of forgery. So how can it be a reasoned viewpoint when someone simply refuses to accept the testimony of numerous established experts. This would stand up in any court of law and the photographs were looked at again by experts at the HSCA and they saw no evidence of forgery (and the HSCA certain weren’t WC apologists)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Really not 1 ?

So you still can’t post a couple Fishy? It can’t be that difficult if there are so many?

[FISHY1118]

I thought people were saying LBJ was part of the Conspiracy. Apparently he didn't get the memo about the Single Bullet Theory being an essential part of the plan.



There is no evidence that anyone except Oswald shot JFK.

Just as there is no conclusive evidence (not the fabricated made up kind we've seen produced of late) Oswald did shoot Kennedy ,this has also been shown on this thread over many weeks.

[FISHY1118]

That’s 3 posts that you’ve now spent time on Fishy. During that time you could have posted a couple of examples. Why haven’t you? I can’t think of a single important thing that was missed out by the WC.

Really not 1 ?

[Fiver]

Once you realise there was a conspiracy, certain things such as the empty cartridge cases being found conveniently in such a way as to incriminate Oswald, and Oswald's practically unusable Carcano, and his claim that he was a patsy, start to make sense.

Once you assume there is a Conspiracy, you interpret everything through that lens.

* Why would a competent Conspiracy leave only three empty shell casings if they had fired more than 3 shots?

* Oswald's Carcano was tested and it worked.

* Lots of criminals claim innocence. That doesn't mean they're innocent.

And then, of course, the Dallas Police's most unfortunate loss of the alleged assassin, murdered by a man who just happened to arrive on the scene at just the right, unannounced, moment of Oswald's transfer, in order to be able to make sure that the man who claimed to be a patsy didn't get a chance to defend himself in a trial.

* Oswald wasn't killed resisting arrest, even though he tried to shoot a police officer.
* Oswald was allowed to speak to the media.
* Oswald was killed over 45 hours after his arrest.
* Oswald would have been transferred before Jack Ruby arrived if Oswald hadn't decided he wanted to wear a sweater and then delayed further by changing to a different sweater. Are you saying Oswald was a full participant in a plan to be murdered?
* Dallas police tackled Ruby quickly enough that he only got off one shot.

Perhaps they didn't read their memo from the Conspiracy?

[Fiver]

Just to be clear about one thing: some of the Commission members rejected the Single Bullet Theory, as did Governor Connally.

That means they realised that there was more than one gunman and, consequently, a conspiracy.

At which point the same murderous Conspiracy that killed JFK also murdered Lyndon Johnson, John Connally, Richard Russell, Hale Boggs, and John Cooper to keep their secret.

Oh wait, the Conspiracy didn't.

Russell died of emphysema in 1971.
Boggs died in a plane crash in 1972.
Johnson died of a heart attack in 1973.
Cooper died in a retirement home in 1991.
Connally died of pulmonary fibrosis in 1993.

Okay, maybe the Conspiracy suddenly became squeamish for no apparent reason and bought off or threatened these prominent critics to publicly change their mind about the Single Bullet Theory.

Oh wait, the Conspiracy didn't do that, either.

Johnson, Connally, Russell, Boggs, and Cooper never changed their minds about the Single Bullet Theory.

It's almost as if the Conspiracy doesn't exist.

[Fiver]

LBJ personal opinion regarding the magic bullet and why Oswald had to be found guilty by the WC are two separate points , it was political. You have to start from here to understand why and how he was found guilty by the WC.

I thought people were saying LBJ was part of the Conspiracy. Apparently he didn't get the memo about the Single Bullet Theory being an essential part of the plan.

Point 2. Thats because the evidence they were using demonstrated that he did shoot Kennedy ,they had no choice to think that way.

There is no evidence that anyone except Oswald shot JFK.