JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FrankO]

The Zapruder Film , Nix Film and Moorman film show the head shot and its aftermath with a debris field to the back and left and not to the front. So if the head exit wound was forward then why wasn't the debris field ?

I'm sorry, David, but what you write here just isn't true. Frame 313 alone shows debris flying up and slightly forward, and a vague cloud, that isn’t there a frame before, pointing up and forward, reaching a point above the governor’s head. So, there was also a debris field that went forward.

Furthermore, during the WC hearings the Connally’s told that they both were covered with material coming from the president’s head.

Governor Connally:
“Immediately, I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which 1 immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big almost as my thumbnail, …”

Mrs. Connally:
“The third shot that I heard I felt,” said Nellie Connally. “It felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter all over the car and both of us.”

And then there’s the location where William Harper found a fragment of skull: somewhere in the grass ahead and to the left of where the president was at the time of the head shot. Harper indicated the location himself on the map below. The map was accompanied by a letter written by him about the location on September 12, 1969.

[cobalt]

Tippit was based out of the Oak Cliff Substation.

His patrol district was in South Oak Cliff, around 5 miles from Central Oak Cliff where he seemed to be a familiar face dropping into the Dobbs Eating House and the Top Ten Record shop whilst in uniform. He was also spotted at the GLOCO station in Central Oak Cliff at 12.45 by five witnesses who knew him by sight, a remarkable piece of anticipation on Tippit's part since the decision to send him there was only made at 12.45.

You are assuming the lack of evidence of a Conspiracy is proof that there was a successful Conspiracy

There's no lack of supporting evidence since that appears daily on this site. I previously raised the issue of conspiracy regarding Oswald being impersonated in a telephone call in Mexico City, a very odd incident since Oswald was portrayed as an inadequate, lone nutter by the WC. So why would anyone bother to do that? J Edgar Hoover seemed stumped as well. I can't remember receiving a response.

The only political shift under LBJ was he pushed harder for Civil Rights than JFK.

A very insular view of Johnson's presidency. Many in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos would disagree.

Neither of Dulles or McCone ran the World Bank.

That is correct. My recollection was wrong. I mixed up John McCone and John McCloy. Both were close friends of Allen Dulles. McCloy made his fortune as a war profiteer which qualified him to become President of the World Bank briefly in the late 1940s. Handing out 'Persil Certificates' to ex-Nazi industrialists was much appreciated in certain quarters. Like Dulles, McCloy's life was devoted to serving the plutocracy, and they retained their core interests in the legal/financial field.

Neither they, nor the CIA gained anything from JFK's death.

Dulles certainly did since he had been sacked as CIA chief after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. His star was in decline. AS a WC appointee, McCloy was initially sceptical about the Lone Gunman theory but after meeting Dulles saw the light. Perhaps being awarded the Presidential Medal of Honour by Johnson on 6th December 1963 helped in that regard.

[Patrick Differ]

Why was one bullet pristine and one completely fragmented? Because it hit bone? Like a rib or a wrist? Two explanations for the same bullet type? Bone does not equal bone.

The debris field from 313 shows a shot to the temple with debris going up and out in all directions. The cloud follows the head and you can see it in the succeeding 2 frames. Jackie Kennedy jumps on the back of the car to get a piece of Kennedys Skull. Back not forward. This is seen from the other side of the car in other film.

Suddenly Newton's Physics need not apply. Neck spasm. A bullet enters the back of the head and forms a perfectly round hole because it's the same bullet type. But in this case it enters the brain, muscle tissue and it explodes into over 100 pieces ? It does not exit instead it fragments and blows out the skull and brain? It's all deposits forward?

Frame 313 is not what it looks like. The WC says it was a shot to the back of the head but Frame 313 shows an explosion at the temple? There is no debris coming forward towards the camera it's all up and out, even back on the car hood and back on the motorcycle cop escort.

Somehow The only real truth is that the head shot was from the back. What you see is no longer relevant. The only relevance is Oswald did it.

Oliver Stone and some others appeared before Congress yesterday and testified that the CIA has it's hands all over this case and they believe they can prove Oswald was innocent.
The WC folks will attempt to discredit them. But keep in mind that the unholy alliance between the CIA and MOB to assassinate Leaders was real. They were doing it.

[FrankO]

Why was one bullet pristine and one completely fragmented?

I really have no idea, I have no experience whatsoever with guns/rifles and am no ballistic expert.

The debris field from 313 shows a shot to the temple with debris going up and out in all directions.

Yes, and one of those directions was forward, which is not only shown in frame 313, but also evidenced by statements by the Connally's and the spot where Harper found a fragement of skull, which was 20 to 25 meters southwest of the president's location when he recieved the head shot. A considerable stretch closer to the overpass.
This shows that your claim that there was only a debris field to the back and left and not to the front, is incorrect. And that was really all that I was reacting to.

Jackie Kennedy jumps on the back of the car to get a piece of Kennedys Skull. Back not forward. This is seen from the other side of the car in other film.

I never denied that, but it doesn't change the fact that debris went forward.

It's all deposits forward?

Again, I'm not claiming anything of the kind.

Frame 313 is not what it looks like.

If you don't trust the Zapruder film, why do you keep using it to try & make points?

The WC says it was a shot to the back of the head but Frame 313 shows an explosion at the temple?

That's indeed very much what it looks like.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why was one bullet pristine…

Why is it that no matter how many times that this is explained we still get this ‘pristine’ bullet nonsense. It was nothing like pristine. It was damaged.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you don't trust the Zapruder film, why do you keep using it to try & make points?


.

The Zapruder film is treated like a buffet table by conspiracy theorists Frank. They believe that the head movement (ignoring the forward movement of course) proves that there was a shot from the front despite an army of experts explaining to the contrary and yet when it’s pointed out that the film clearly shows that there was no wound to the back of Kennedy’s head they shout “fake!”

[Geddy2112]

The Zapruder film is treated like a buffet table by conspiracy theorists Frank.

Did I once read or saw on TV that folk believe the Z film to have been edited because someone in the background was standing up and in the next frame they were on the ground which apparently was impossible to do in the time it took to film a frame i.e. 18 frames per second...

[Patrick Differ]

Why is that when points are made using the Zapruder film that does not meet your opinion of the evidence you have to denigrate the other debater. I don't care if you think those of us that don't agree with the WC post nonsense.
How can you not believe the Zapruder film? Why is your interpretation the right one? Because the government told you that their experts proved it?
The experts that disprove it are not experts eventhough there credentials are as good as the opposing experts?

The pristine bullet was flat on one side and had a few grains of lead missing? After entering 2 bodies with entrances and exits including clothing and somehow magically ended up on Connallys stretcher?

I expected civil debate not this. Done with this post. Believe what you want. I will wait for the latest Congressional investigation.

According to latest round the CIA had a massive file on Oswald?

Knott used the 360 3D Digital Scanner not the P20. Its funny how the WC folks can support Arlen Specter who just made a theory up and when technology comes along 60 years later and disproves it their mind is not opened. It has to be wrong.

[Fiver]

Furthermore, during the WC hearings the Connally’s told that they both were covered with material coming from the president’s head.

So did Agent Kellerman.

Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.
Senator COOPER. What was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why is that when points are made using the Zapruder film that does not meet your opinion of the evidence you have to denigrate the other debater.

The Zapruder film proves that there was no wound to the back of Kennedy’s head. That is a fact. I’m not going to Pat someone on the back when they deny what we can all see with our own eyes.

I don't care if you think those of us that don't agree with the WC post nonsense.
How can you not believe the Zapruder film? Why is your interpretation the right one? Because the government told you that their experts proved it?

There is no need to ‘interpret’ the Zapruder film. It shows no wound to the back of the head and it shows the head moving slightly forward then backward and to the left which scientists tell us is what we should expect to see. The only debatable point is the exact point that Kennedy and Connally were struck by the same bullet. It’s unimportant though because we know that they were.

The experts that disprove it are not experts eventhough there credentials are as good as the opposing experts?

If they support conspiracy then they clearly aren’t.

The pristine bullet was flat on one side and had a few grains of lead missing?

Therefore, by definition, it wasn’t pristine. So why do people keep calling a bullet ‘pristine’ that wasn’t pristine? Because it suits them to do it. It fools people into thinking that the bullet went through 2 bodies without a single blemish on it. Basically, it’s a lie. It shouldn’t be called pristine. Why not call it what it was, a ‘damaged bullet?’

After entering 2 bodies with entrances and exits including clothing and somehow magically ended up on Connallys stretcher?

So a bullet that enters a body can’t exit a body. Ok. It didn’t ‘magically’ end up on Connally’s stretcher. Like ‘pristine,’ ‘magically’ is another silly attempt to make something banal seem unlikely. Bullets exit bodies. It’s not a sci-if.

I expected civil debate not this. Done with this post. Believe what you want. I will wait for the latest Congressional investigation.

You don’t want debate. You want a conspiracy theorist get-together and you simply cannot accept people that don’t go along the usual conspiracy theory clichés.

According to latest round the CIA had a massive file on Oswald?

And so far there has been zero evidence of a conspiracy. And according to the five or six American professors that I’ve read pieces by they don’t expect any to. It won’t stop the imaginings though.

Knott used the 360 3D Digital Scanner not the P20. Its funny how the WC folks can support Arlen Specter who just made a theory up and when technology comes along 60 years later and disproves it their mind is not opened. It has to be wrong.

Rubbish. Specter has just been turned into a pantomime villain by conspiracy theorists. A totally honest man who simply did experiments to see if the two men could have been hit by the same bullet. Of course his tests were primitive compared to today but the modern tests that have been done have not been disproved. If they were definitely disproved do you not think that all newspapers and news programmes would be trumpeting ‘conspiracy proven!” But they don’t. Because it hasn’t been.

The idea of conspiracy should be treated as a joke. It’s been given far too much respect over the years. If there had been a more concerted, vocal anti-conspiracy movement over the years it would have died out.

If you wanted ‘civil debate’ as you claim Patrick (and I’ve seen nothing uncivil on here) then you wouldn’t post in a way that suggests that those that believe in a Lone Gunman were gullible sheep in thrall to the government.

[Lewis C]

There is a key difference - you refer to it as "the government" as if it was a monolithic single entity. The government is composed of multiple organizations, many of which are rivals. Many of these organization are composed of factions, which are rivals to each other. And those are composed of individuals, each with their own goals.

I'm not asking anyone to support anything because the government, or any section of government says it's true. Neither should we reject something just because the government says it.

We need to look at the facts. I'll look at just one example - the prints. There are two possibilities - either they were left there by Oswald, or the Dallas Police, the FBI, multiple government investigations, and multiple independent experts over the course of decades were all part of a criminal plot to kill JFK.

Yes, and one example of the non-monolithic nature of the government is in the assassination investigation. There isn't a single government explanation of what happened. The Warren Commission concluded Oswald acted alone, but the House Committee that investigated it concluded that there was more than one shooter. So those of of us who believe Oswald acted alone are rejecting the latter government explanation.

[Lewis C]

A very insular view of Johnson's presidency. Many in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos would disagree.

JFK escalated US involvement in Vietnam, and LBJ continued to escalate it. If there are people in SE Asia (and the US for that matter) who don't know that, that doesn't change the fact that it's true.

[Fiver]

A very insular view of Johnson's presidency. Many in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos would disagree.

JFK and LBJ both supported the containment strategy against the USSR. If JFK had still been alive when the Gulf of Tonkin Incident happened, he would have escalated as well. That policy only changed when Nixon pulled out of Vietnam, and who obviously was not assassinated for doing so.

[Fiver]

I previously raised the issue of conspiracy regarding Oswald being impersonated in a telephone call in Mexico City, a very odd incident since Oswald was portrayed as an inadequate, lone nutter by the WC. So why would anyone bother to do that? J Edgar Hoover seemed stumped as well. I can't remember receiving a response.

I've seen plenty of claims that Oswald was impersonated. But we have plenty of evidence that Oswald did go to Mexico and a Conspiracy would have no motive and no need to impersonate him.

[Fiver]

Dulles certainly did since he had been sacked as CIA chief after the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

Dullles gained nothing from JFK's assassination.

. AS a WC appointee, McCloy was initially sceptical about the Lone Gunman theory but after meeting Dulles saw the light.

McCloy gained nothing from JFK's assassination.

And feel free to present evidence that McCloy was initially skeptical about the Lone Gunman theory.