JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Hi Patrick

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=82#relPageId=1&tab=toc

Sections 39 and 41

Hey Iron Willpower, didn't you promise to never again darken the portals of this thread?

Carry on my friend.

[Fiver]

Another deceptive post that fails to mention that the above is from Humes deposition to the ARRB in Feb 1996. At the time of the autopsy Hume probed the back wound and found it to be shallow, as confirmed by Finck, and was puzzled as to the lack of the presence of a projectile. After briefly considering an "ice" projectile, he postulated that the projectile must have fallen out as a result of the resuscitative measures utilised at Parkland. After speaking to Perry he burned his notes and rewrote the history of the autopsy to accommodate a neck wound instead of a back wound.

That's a wildly inaccurate summary of Dr Humes Warren Commission testimony.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned.
I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER - And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor Humes?
Commander HUMES - Yes; in essence we have.

Commander HUMES - We concluded that this missile depicted in 385 "C" which entered the President's body traversed the President's body and made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland Hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound.

[GBinOz]

That's a wildly inaccurate summary of Dr Humes Warren Commission testimony.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned.
I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER - And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor Humes?
Commander HUMES - Yes; in essence we have.

Commander HUMES - We concluded that this missile depicted in 385 "C" which entered the President's body traversed the President's body and made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland Hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound.

"If the first look at the apple shows that it's rotten, why bite into it hoping that some of it is edible?"

After your two deliberately deceptive posts, I am taking no further looks at your apples.

[Patrick Differ]

Humes was described by the House Committee after citing the Bethesda Autopsys many failures, as like sending a 7 year old violin student to try out for the New York Symphony. And they were not talking child prodigy.

That is a harsh rebuke. No doubt the Autopsy caused as many problems as it may have solved.

I took another look at the events of that day and the Press briefings from Parkland Doctors were interesting. They were asked about entrance and exit and the descriptions they used were not just inconclusive but open for interpretation. In other words it could have been either.

If there was a need to silence Oswald and steer the outcome to him as a lone gunman, the Press briefings are a place one might look.

When Oswald said he was a Patsy, after the Press Briefing, was his fate sealed?

Did it happen this way? I dont honestly know. Just thoughts that came to me while reviewing data yesterday.

[Patrick Differ]

That's a wildly inaccurate summary of Dr Humes Warren Commission testimony.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned.
I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER - And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor Humes?
Commander HUMES - Yes; in essence we have.

Commander HUMES - We concluded that this missile depicted in 385 "C" which entered the President's body traversed the President's body and made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland Hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound.

Humes did in fact only probe the back with his finger. He did not perform a disection to see if there was a path from the back and exit out the neck. It never happened. When asked why not he said it was just his decision at the time. He also said he was feeling pressure to complete the autopsy.

Humes did in fact consider that the heart massage at Parkland may have dislodged this bullet.

Let's be clear here. Humes is giving his opinion from a question from Specter and that's it. He didn't prove anything. And who does Humes mean by We?

[Fiver]

At the time of the autopsy Hume probed the back wound and found it to be shallow, as confirmed by Finck, and was puzzled as to the lack of the presence of a projectile. After briefly considering an "ice" projectile, he postulated that the projectile must have fallen out as a result of the resuscitative measures utilised at Parkland. After speaking to Perry he burned his notes and rewrote the history of the autopsy to accommodate a neck wound instead of a back wound.

Now lets look at what Dr Finck said.

Mr. SPECTER - With respect to the question of likelihood of Governor Connally having been wounded in the back and chest with the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy in 385, what reduction would there be, if any, in the velocity, considering the relative positions of the two men in the automobile as reflected in photograph, Exhibit 398?
Colonel FINCK - Of course, to reach precise figures we would need experiments and similar circumstances with the same type ammunition at the same distance through two human cadavers, which I did not do.
On the basis that if we assume that this is one bullet going through President Kennedy's body and also through Governor Connally's body, the reduction of velocity would be of some extent after passing through President Kennedy's body, but not having hit bones, the reduction in velocity, after going through President Kennedy's body, would be minimal.
Mr. SPECTER - Would there be sufficient force then to inflict the wound which Dr. Humes described from the Parkland Hospital records as having been inflicted on Governor Connally's back and chest?
Colonel FINCK - There would be enough energy to go through the body of the Governor.
Mr. SPECTER - In expressing your opinion on that subject, Doctor Finck, have you taken into account the assumptions on distance, that we are dealing here with a weapon that has a muzzle velocity in the neighborhood of slightly in excess of 2,000, and that the vehicle carrying these two individuals was approximately 150, about 150 feet away from the site of origin of the missile?
Colonel FINCK - At this range, a bullet of this velocity loses very little velocity, and keeps upon impact a large amount of kinetic energy.
Mr. SPECTER - You heard the whole of Doctor Humes' testimony, did you not?
Colonel FINCK - Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you have anything that you would like to add to what he said?
Colonel FINCK - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Or would you like to modify his testimony in any way?
Colonel FINCK - No.

[Fiver]

Humes was described by the House Committee after citing the Bethesda Autopsys many failures, as like sending a 7 year old violin student to try out for the New York Symphony. And they were not talking child prodigy.

That is a harsh rebuke. No doubt the Autopsy caused as many problems as it may have solved.

It would be a harsh rebuke, but I can find no evidence that the HSCA ever said that about the autopsy. Not that they didn't provide plenty of criticism.

"The two major issues connected with the autopsy are its scope--full versus partial--and the competency with which the prosectors performed it. Despite allegations that the Kennedy family or other authorities ordered a partial or limited autopsy, evidence shows that the pathologists were given authority to perform a complete autopsy. The autopsy was not complete, however, according to established medicolegal standards. A combination of strong Kennedy family desires to finish the autopsy quickly, a military environment that hindered independent action, a lack of experience in forensic pathology among the prosectors, and a lack of established jurisdictional and procedural guidelines all contributed to the pathologists' failure to take certain measures essential to the completion of a thorough medicolegal autopsy and to competently perform the autopsy.

The measures essential to a thorough medicolegal autopsy that the pathologists failed to take are

1) Conducting the autopsy in an atmosphere free from the presence of individuals not necessary to any medical or investigative aspects of the autopsy. Aside from the Secret Service and FBI agents, it was not necessary for other military personnel to be in the autopsy room who were not performing a medical function.
2) Consulting the Parkland Hospital doctors who administered emergency treatment to the President before initiating the autopsy. According to the medical panel of the committee, such consultation is normal procedure.
3) Acquiring the assistance of an experienced pathologist engaged in the full-time practice of forensic pathology, as opposed to the consulting capacity Dr. Finck possessed. Such experienced assistance might have prevented several errors.
4) Recording precisely the locations of the wounds according to anatomical landmarks routinely used in forensic pathology. The medical panel of the committee stated that the reference points used to document the location of the wound in the upper back--the mastoid process and the acromion--are movable points and should not have been used.
5) Dissecting the wound that traversed the upper back of the President. The medical panel stated that probing a wound with a finger is hardly sufficient; to ascertain the actual track, the wound must be dissected.
6) Examining all organs and documenting the results of such examinations. Although the pathologists did examine most organs, they made no reference to the adrenal glands, part of the anatomy routinely examined during the autopsy.
7) Sectioning the brain coronally. Such documentation could have provided additional insight into the destructive impact of the missile in the brain.

The committee recognizes that the inadequacies of the autopsy originated in part from the unique and hectic circumstances surrounding the death of the President, and not with any one source. Whatever the cause, however, these inadequacies have continued to feed the confusion and mistrust so long associated with the autopsy of President Kennedy and have reduced the effectiveness of the committee's review of the medical evidence. These problems reinforce the necessity for establishing substantive and procedural guidelines to be followed in the performance of any autopsy stemming from the assassination of a national political official."

[Fiver]

Humes did in fact consider that the heart massage at Parkland may have dislodged this bullet.

Hume considered and rejected the idea that the heart massage at Parkland may have dislodged this bulle

Mr. SPECTER - And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor Humes?
Commander HUMES - Yes; in essence we have.

[Fiver]

Anyway moving on I am surprised that the witness who was closest to Kennedy other than the Connallys and the Motorcycle Cop , Mrs Moorman, who took the Polaroid shots of Kennedy right after the head shot and is captured in the Zapruder film, is not mentioned or maybe I missed it. It wasn't the Badge Man controversy ( a candidate for A.I.) but rather the shots she heard and what she said.

Moorman's first statement is problematic.

"As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

The Zapruder and Nix films show that Jackie Kennedy did not jump up and no other witness agrees that she said this. Memory is fallible.

Moorman said she heard one shot followed by a pause. Then she heard pow pow in succession.

That's not an accurate summary of what Moorman said to the Dallas police, which I have already quoted. It doesn't match what Moorman said to the FBI, either.

"She took a second photograph of the President as his automobile passed her, and just as she snapped the the picture, she heard what she at first thought was a firecracker and very shortly thereafter heard another similar sound which she later determined to have been gunfire. She knows that she heard two shots and possibly a third shot. She recalls seeing the president "sort of jump" and start to slump sideways in the seat, and seems to recall President KENNEDY's wife scream, "My God, he's been shot"

As to the "Badge Man", it was a pop bottle sitting on the corner of the stone wall.

[Fiver]

Nell Connally said that when her husband was hit he reared up like a horse.

That is not an accurate description of what Mrs Connally said.

Mrs. CONNALLY. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

"crumpled" seems the exact opposite of "reared up".

[FISHY1118]

Thanks Mrs Connally for exposing the warren commission lie.

A separate bullet hit John Connally.

[Fiver]

Boswell sketched the back wound at 5 1/2 inches below the shoulder line and Burkley signed off on this location.

The sketches were done by Harold Rydberg at the direction of Boswell and Hume. They were working without photographs or x-rays. Thy botched how to locate the wounds, as noted by the HSCA.

The measures essential to a thorough medicolegal autopsy that the pathologists failed to take are

4) Recording precisely the locations of the wounds according to anatomical landmarks routinely used in forensic pathology. The medical panel of the committee stated that the reference points used to document the location of the wound in the upper back--the mastoid process and the acromion--are movable points and should not have been used.

I'd be cautious about assuming the Rydberg sketches were precise.

[Fiver]

SS agents Bennett and Hill observed the wound 4" and 6" respectively below the shoulder line

Hill put the wound 6 inches below the neck line, not the shoulder line

Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.

[FrankO]

The right lapel movement is often quoted, although I have yet to see a copy of the film that is clear enough to show it. Looking at the footage of the presidential limo as it turned into Houston St from Main St, it can be seen that the flags on the car indicate a strong wind from the NNW. I think it would have been the wind lifting the lapel rather than a bullet as indicated by this photo of Connally's coat.

I see the shoulder movements as part of the turning process.

Hi George,

Thanks for your reply and the photo.

If by your first sentence you mean that what we see in frame 224 isn’t clearly discernible as a lapel, then I agree. But other than that, it’s very clear that in frame 223 we see his tie and part of his shirt and in frame 224 it’s blocked from view by something that has the same colour as his jacket and very likely is the right lapel of his jacket. What else should it be?

Of course, it may just have been a gust of wind that moved it, but I find it somewhat of a coincidence that it’s precisely in frame 224 that we see it. Furthermore, there’s also the quick lowering of his right shoulder. Within 0.27 seconds he moves it down, as if he’s been poked in the right side.

Taking these things together with the fact that he keeps his right hand holding the hat at shoulder level until at least 279, it seems that he was either hit close to frame 224 or by 2 different shots at some hard to determine later frame. Other than some possible facial expressions, there’s no clear reaction from Connally beyond frame 224 to anything that suggests a bullet strike, but he also has such expressions in frames 224, 225 and 226.

Seeing that, after frame 290, Connally is leaning back onto his wife’s lap, it seems very unlikely to me that any of his wounds could have been caused by a shot after that frame.

Again, I’m not necessarily talking about the single bullet theory, I’m only talking about what is to be seen in the Zapruder film, which is not that it confirms that Connally wasn’t hit before frame 230, which is not that it completely corresponds with Mrs. Connally’s statements nor that the governor doesn’t react before frame 240 or so, as some will have it. He clearly does react, starting at frame 224, at least with his facial expression. Whether anybody wants to see that as a reaction to being hit or not, is another matter. The Zapruder film is the most direct evidence we have to base anything on and that’s the only thing I’m willing to concentrate on.

Nell Connally said that when her husband was hit he reared up like a horse. There is certainly no indication of this in the frames around the 230s. I would estimate that he was hit around frame 295 as he is turning back to the left, but it is difficult to see as the film is showing only the neck and head. I agree that one shot through the abdomen would be unlikely to also hit the back of the wrist, but I see a violent movement around frame 326 that could account for a second shot/wound.

I think the rearing up or recoiling/crumpling is happening after frame 266/267 or so, when he starts leaning back onto his wife’s lap while keeping his eyes almost at the president, and then turning his head to his left by frame 290, so that he’s almost facing Zapruder’s camera. I don’t see anything violent happening at around frame 326. What I see is that the Connally’s start to react to the head shot at frame 316. Mrs. Connally first puts her husband’s head on her lap in front of her and then she ducks towards her husband’s seat. And that whole thing lasts until about frame 346.

The whole single bullet theory falls at the first hurdle. Hume said the back wound did not transit the body. Boswell sketched the back wound at 5 1/2 inches below the shoulder line and Burkley signed off on this location. SS agents Bennett and Hill observed the wound 4" and 6" respectively below the shoulder line. Sibert and O'Neill said the back wound was shallow and considerably below the throat wound. Sibert was quoted as saying about the single-bullet theory and Arlen Specter, "What a liar. I feel he got his orders from above - how far above I don't know." The holes in the coat and shirt indicate about 5 1/2" below the shoulder line. At the Clay Shaw trial in 1969, Pierre Finck said, "The back wound's depth was the first fraction of an inch." Gerald Ford moved the wound from the back to the neck as a "clarification" of the SBT.

I’m not willing to go into this too deep, as that would become a day job, which I don’t think it’s worth, but what I am going to say is what Fiver already wrote. I.e. that Humes felt the wound and, before knowing about the throat wound and contusion on the upper lobe of the lung, he thought the bullet had not exited the body and that after finding the bruising of the strap muscles and the top of the right lung and finding out about the bullet wound in the throat, they concluded it had passed through the president and had exited at the front, knicking the tie knot. I’m fine with that.

Regrettably, we are still at odds with our observations and opinions, but there it is.

There it is, indeed, George.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Thanks Mrs Connally for exposing the warren commission lie.

A separate bullet hit John Connally.

Unfortunately, she did nothing of the kind. She told that her husband's wounds were caused by one bullet and he couldn't be hit in both his upper body and wrist if he held his right hand at about shoulder level, which the Zapruder film shows he did until at least frame 279 and then again from frames 320 to 330.