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  • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    But this doesn't apply to the Warren Commission?
    The Warren Commission got things wrong, yes. Just because I mostly agree with their conclusions doesn't make them perfect by any means. What I would say is that after Watergate US politics did turn it's idiocy level upto eleven.

    Comment


    • The problem with the Warren Commission is that its remit and verdict was set out before it even met. Any evidence accrued by the FBI in the course of its investigation was tailored to a certain end. That is why there a conspiracy theorist element evolved which has been unrelenting since 1963. Of which I am part.

      If all the JFK documents were released this would become less of an issue. But none, deep down, believes this will ever be done short of a counter revolution. When I say counter revolution, I mean the deposing from power of that group who orchestrated and benefited from the assassination of JFK.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

        Well that's total genius!

        It was a conspiracy, but we can't identify any other gunman or the extent of any conspiracy.

        Taxi for the select committee.
        So its not enough to believe in a conspiracy and show evidence that one was perpretated,

        You want them to solved the murder and arrest everyone involved otherwise in the minds of the apologist theres nothing to see here ? Is that it?
        'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          hi george
          thanks for posting this pic. i had remember seeing this before and always thought that it looks like a better place to have a shooter than anywhere else.. on the over pass (kind of closer to the GK as opposed to out in the middle). you would have your target coming almost directly toward you as opposed to at an angle, which causes the harder to hit side to side movement than the GN and book depository(which would also have your target moving away from you). it also looks like the exact angle of the fatal head shot, as kennedys head jerks back and to the left.

          that puff of smoke, if thats what it is, looks like it could be coming from the overpass I think? also werent there confirmed reports of men on the overpass.. described as "hobos" I beleive?? it also kind of looks like you can see figures on the overpass. especially just left of the puff of smoke. thoughts?
          Hi Abby,

          I agree that there couldn't be a better place for a sniper than on the overpass but the problem would be that there were lots of spectators there. I haven't seen any theory regarding a sniper under the overpass. The other place would be the Records Building where the target would be going directly away. That is where a cartridge case was found years afterwards.

          The hobos were at the rear of the carpark near the TSBD. There were many people on the overpass including the railway workers. Their experience can be viewed here:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEq6...HelmerReenberg
          I recall that previously you had trouble with one of my links. In case you have trouble again, the title of the YouTube video is " The railroad workers on the Triple Overpass (English Version)". These men stated that the smoke was under the trees in front of the picket fence on the grassy knoll.

          There's a video on the Hobos ( Tramps and Arrests (English Version) ) here:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lfr...HelmerReenberg

          and a video of witness interviews ( Witnesses on the Grassy Knoll, Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas (English Version) ) here:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJCC...HelmerReenberg

          Cheers, George

          Last edited by GBinOz; 02-25-2023, 11:42 PM.
          They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
          Out of a misty dream
          Our path emerges for a while, then closes
          Within a dream.
          Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

          Comment


          • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
            The problem with the Warren Commission is that its remit and verdict was set out before it even met. Any evidence accrued by the FBI in the course of its investigation was tailored to a certain end. That is why there a conspiracy theorist element evolved which has been unrelenting since 1963. Of which I am part.

            If all the JFK documents were released this would become less of an issue. But none, deep down, believes this will ever be done short of a counter revolution. When I say counter revolution, I mean the deposing from power of that group who orchestrated and benefited from the assassination of JFK.
            Hi cobalt,

            I'm sure we would be living in a different world had Jack survived to have four more years in the white house, followed by Bobbie with eight.

            Cheers, George
            They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
            Out of a misty dream
            Our path emerges for a while, then closes
            Within a dream.
            Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

            Comment



            • Kennedy’s Wounds, the Autopsy and Conspiracy Theorist Lies and manipulations.


              I’ll first apologise for the length of this post but it’s a complex subject that has been manipulated by conspiracy theorist over the years to the point where complete fantasy and blatant manipulation have been accepted as ‘fact.’ Helped of course by Oliver Stone’s entertaining piece of conspiracist propaganda. A powerful tool indeed. I’ve broken this down into topics hopefully to make it easier to read. As I, quite remarkably, get accused by two posters (who fully admit to reading only conspiracist versions of events) of dodging points, even though the evidence is there for all to see that it’s me that constantly answers in detail while they duck and dive, I wanted to do this in detail with a list of headline points. I know that film footage of Oswald killing Kennedy wouldn’t change the mind of a committed conspiracy theorist but I’d ask others to read with an open mind. I’ve made nothing up. I’ve manipulated nothing. I’ve done no selective quoting. If there are any errors then they are not intentional. Im not a conspirator. I used to be. But I’m definitely not now.


              Where the Doctor’s at Bethesda Hospital Competent To Perform The Autopsy?


              That claim that errors were made at the autopsy is absolutely proven, but claims such as that made by conspiracy theorist Harold Weisberg that it was unworthy of a “Bowery bum,” is typical exaggeration and is now taken as ‘fact’ by many. No consideration is ever given to the extraordinary circumstances that it was performed under (more of that later). Vincent Bugliosi (yes, I know that CT’s tend to foam at the mouth at the mere mention of his name) in his book, makes the interesting comparison to the autopsy of Abraham Lincoln. The report of his autopsy is something like a mere four paragraphs long and yet Bugliosi was able to bring up numerous errors and unanswered questions which would have provided fertile ground for suggestions of conspiracy. So who were the three Doctor’s who performed the autopsy on the President?

              First, and in overall charge, was Dr. James J. Humes, the senior pathologist and director of laboratories at the Naval Medical School at Bethesda Hospital. Humes was qualified in clinical and anatomical pathology but, it has been pointed out that his training in forensic pathology was limited to a course at the Armed Forces Institute Of Pathology which focused mainly on deaths from natural causes. Some, including conspiracy theorists of course, have made much of this by claiming that he had no experience of gunshot wounds. This is not correct, although he certainly couldn’t be considered an expert. In an interview with the Journal of the American Medical Association, Humes had performed several autopsies on soldiers killed by gunshot wounds and he confirmed this in 1996 in front of the Assassination Records Review Board. So he did have some experience in bullet trauma although he certainly was no specialist. No one has ever claimed otherwise.

              Next was Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, Chief of Pathology of the Naval Medical School. He was certified in clinical and pathological anatomy but was not a forensic pathologist either. This was why Humes insisted on the presence of the third doctor.

              This was Dr. Pierre A. Finck, a fully certified forensic pathologist who, at the time of the autopsy was chief of the Wound Ballistics Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces. Whilst in this role he reviewed 400+ cases (civilian and military) many involving bullet wounds. Between 1955 and 1958 he had personally performed around 200 autopsies many involving bullet wounds in his capacity as pathologist at the US Hospital in Frankfurt.

              So these were the 3 autopsy Doctors. All eminent men. All with no questions against their integrity. One of the criticisms levelled by conspiracy theorists is the allegation that the military was in charge of the autopsy. To our next point.


              Was The Military In Charge Of Kennedy’s Autopsy?


              This point came from a comment made by Dr. Finck at the trial of Clay Shaw. He heard Humes say: “who is in charge here?” to which an unnamed army general replied: “I am.” Oliver Stone made much of this in his movie and conspiracy buffs naturally never give the entire quote. When Finck was pressed as to the name of the general that was in charge of the autopsy he replied: “There was no general in charge of the autopsy.” Finck suggested that the general was talking about overall and not the autopsy itself. Another piece of misleading quoting (to put it politely) was also related to Finck at the Shaw trial where he said: “ There were admirals, and when you are a lieutenant colonel in the Army (as he was) you just follow orders.” Conspiracy theorists endlessly quote this as evidence of military control but, as ever, things aren’t as they seem. Yet again conspiracy theorists quote selectively. They leave out what Finck said after “you just follow orders,” which was: “And at the end of the autopsy we were specifically told….by Admiral Kenney, the Surgeon General of the Navy….not to discus the case.” More editing that Big Brother would have approved of.

              According to conspiracy theorists there were God knows how many generals and admirals present, many of them nameless, shady figures (like someone from the X-Files) but unfortunately for them FBI agents Francis X. O’Neill Jnr and James W. Siberia listed everyone present at the autopsy. There were four. They were Rear Admiral George C. Burkley, the President’s Personal Physician. Admiral Calvin B. Calloway, who was the commanding officer of Bethesda Hospital. General Godfrey McHugh, who was the President’s Military Attaché. Major General Philip Wehle, commanding officer of the U.S. military district of Washington. None of them ‘mysterious’. None of them ‘shady.’ All of them highly respected. And all of them had every business being with the President at the time. Medical Corpsman Paul Kelley O’Connor told an interviewer that he remembered the “I am,” as coming from Burkley, which makes sense as he was Kennedy’s personal physician.

              So it’s very obvious when checking the facts that the military were not in charge of the autopsy. Jackie Kennedy though wanted only a partial autopsy, supported by Buckley who said that because they had heard that the killer had been caught so they only required the bullet for evidence. Humes confirmed that due to the concerns of the family Buckley wanted to expedite the autopsy but the Doctors had problems which meant that they could speed things up. The idea of anything untoward is clearly nonsense and is disproven when the matter was settled when, after checking with the FBI and Secret Service, Rear Admiral Galloway ordered that it be a full autopsy. The movie JFK shows the military suppressing the autopsy over the wishes of the family when the evidence proves conclusively that the military ordered a full autopsy over the wishes of the family. The family clearly wanted a shorter autopsy. The didn’t want the presidency brain dissected and they didn’t want the doctors to access the adrenal glands because they were still keen to keep from the public that the President had Addison’s Disease. So the Doctors felt under some time pressure from the family but they were asked if it materially affected the autopsy. Boswell said: I don’t think it interfered with the manner in which we did the autopsy.” Humes replied: “I don’t either.”

              Conspiracy theorists often say that the retired Dr. Earl Rose was the man who should have been in charge of the autopsy but he was enjoying his retirement too much. Rose was asked if, from looking at the x-rays and autopsy photos, that the doctors had got their conclusions correct. His answer? “ Yes, there’s no question that their conclusions were correct. Two shots entered the President from behind…..

              The military were provably not in charge of the autopsy. It’s another conspiracist myth. We now have another conspiracist myth to deal with.


              Were The Autopsy X-Rays and Photographs Faked?


              That this question should require a response is an embarrassment to the subject but since we’re in the Matrix…

              During the HSCA investigation they consulted with experts in Pathology, Forensic Dentistry, photography, radiology and forensic pathology. The anthropologist studied the photographs and concluded that they were beyond doubt photographs of Kennedy. They also checked x-rays of Kennedy from before and after his death focusing on minute details like cranial sutures, vascular grooves and air cells of the mastoid bone and concluded that there could be zero reasonable doubt the the autopsy x-rays were of Kennedy. Then forensic Odontologist Dt. Lowell J. Levine examined x-rays of Kennedy’s teeth and compared them to the autopsy x-rays and concluded, based on the unique positioning of the teeth in relation to each other, the size and shape of his fillings and many other detailed characteristics and concluded that the autopsy x-rays were: “unquestionably of the skull of President John F. Kennedy” and that they could not be simulated or faked.”

              The HSCA also showed the x-rays and photographs to its own panel of photographic experts who concluded that there was absolutely no evidence of tampering, altering or any form of fakery.

              The autopsy x-rays and photographs were provably absolutely genuine. So next we have the conspiracists claim about the wounds.


              Was The Wound At The Back Of Kennedy’s Head An Exit Or Entry Wound?


              Humes, Boswell and Finck concluded of course that it was an entrance wound indicating a shot from the rear despite what Kevin Costner tells us. The head wound showed every characteristic of an entry wound. The hole was 15 mm x 6 mm slightly less that the 6.5 MM dimension of the bullet. Dr. Humes explain that this was because of the: “elastic recoil of the tissues of the skin. It is not infrequent…..that the measured wound is slightly smaller than the calibre of the bullet that traversed it.” The bullet was descending at 16 degrees below the horizontal according to the HSCA estimation, and from a point of 29 degrees due north of the President which is entirely consistent with a shot from the easternmost window or the 6th floor of the TSBD. This bullet struck Kennedy at an angle causing a 15 mm cut in a slicing action. This is also consistent with a rifle location of behind the President’s right ear. When Humes peeled back the scalp he said that there was a: “through and through defect [in the skull] corresponding with the wound in the scalp.

              More evidence that this was an entry would was that when they looked inside the skull to look at the margins of the bones they saw a clear ‘bevelling,’ (sometimes called ‘coning’ or ‘cratering’) This only occurs on the opposite side of the bone to the one that was first struck. So the wound on the inside is larger than the one on the outside. There could be no clearer evidence that the wound to the rear of Kennedy’s head was an entry wound. Therefore the shot had to have come from behind. There can be no other explanation. The bevelled edges of bone were even mentioned in the Lincoln autopsy. Dr. Finck told the HSCA: “the hole in the skull in the back of the head showed no crater when examined from the outside of the skull, but when I examined the inside of the skull at the level of that bone I saw a crater, and to me that was a positive, unquestionable finding identifying a wound entry in the back of the head.” He’d said exactly the same thing at the trial of Clay Shaw. In an interview with Dan Rather in 1967 Dr. Humes was asked: “Can you be absolutely certain that the wound you described as an entry wound was, in fact, that?” To which Humes replied:” Yes, indeed, we can, very precisely and incontrovertibly….And: Is there any doubt that the wound at the back of the President’s head was the entry wound?” Answer: “There is absolutely no doubt, sir.”

              As if the bevelling wasn’t enough proof the HSCA experts also noted that the:” margin of this wound [to the President’s head], from 3 to 10 o’clock, is surrounded by a crescent shaped reddish black area of denudiation….presenting the appearance of an abrasion collar resulting from the rubbing of the skin by the bullet at the time of penetration.” Dr. Baden testified that:”an abrasion collar is characteristic of an entrance wound.” Dr. Cyril Wecht, member of the HSCA panel and well known conspiracy theorist said that the term abrasion collar is a popular term in law enforcement because it’s visible to the naked eye and will only appear for certain if a bullet enters at an angle. As in the case of Kennedy.

              Even after this, there is further evidence that it was indeed an entry wound. The autopsy surgeons at Bethesda also found something called “coagulation necrosis of the tissues” on the inner margin of the head wound. Dr. Wecht admitted in 1967 that coagulation necrosis was a sure sign of an entry wound. He further stated that whilst not all gunshot wounds have abrasion collars all have coagulation necrosis. Wecht was also asked if the finding of coagulation necrosis in an autopsy showed sophistication. He agreed that it did then he was further asked how this squared with the accusation that the autopsy was amateurish? He replied that this would have come from the expertise of Dr. Finck. Remember….Finck’s presence was specifically requested for just that reason. As Finck said, he was called on:” specifically to interpret the wounds.

              Conspiracy theories often cite the fact that the Warren Commission never viewed the autopsy x-rays and photographs and that’s why they were wrong. But they fail to add that the 3 later groups, including the HSCA, did view the x-rays and photographs and they all came to exactly the same conclusion as the WC. That the wounds came from the rear. The HSCA, with 9 pathologists on its panel, stated that:” The President was struck by a bullet….that entered in the right rear of the head near the cowlick area.” They added that:” there is no medical evidence” that the President as struck from the front.

              The Clark Panel in 1968 and The Rockerfeller Commission in 1975 came to exactly the same conclusion. The Clark Panel, for example, said: “ the decedent’s head was struck from behind by a single projectile.” The Rockerfeller Commission said that the bullet was :” fired from the rear” and that there was:”no evidence to support the claim that the President was struck by a bullet fired from either the Grassy Knoll or any other position to his front.” The Rockerfeller Commission pointed out that even Dr. Cyril Wecht, darling of the conspiracy theorists, had testified before them that the evidence established that there was only one head shot and that it came from the rear.

              So to sum up this section - the 3 pathologists who performed the autopsy, the 9 pathologists on the HSCA panel, the 3 pathologists and 1 radiologist from The Rockerfeller Commission - that’s 17 pathologists! (including conspiracy theorist Cyril Wecht) all testified that based on the evidence that the wound on the back of the President’s head was an entrance wound.

              Could anything be more certain?


              The Three Doctor’s Incorrect Locating Of The Head Wound.


              Doctor’s like all of us, make errors. Humes report placed the wound 3 inches above its actual location as shown in the photographs and x-rays. Could there have been 2 wounds? Absolutely not because 17 pathologists tell us not. As many people do when asked about a possible error Humes and Boswell dug their heals in and said that the photographs were misleading and an HSCA memo said that Humes was reluctant to second guess what he’d written 14 years earlier. Humes all felt that x-rays and photographs have certain limitations that aren’t present when you are actually viewing the subject. Finck agreed saying that viewing the photographs wasn’t the same as viewing the actual body. In front of the HSCA, whilst not giving up his opinion when confronted with the discrepancy, he said:”Well, I have a little trouble with that; 10 centimetres is….significant - 4 inches” (In reality the difference was 9 centimetres or 3.5 inches) The HSCA noted that Humes seemed less certain that his initial placement was correct.

              The HSCA did however come up with a very reasonable, plausible and understandable possible explanation for this discrepancy. Humes himself said that, between the conclusion of what must have been an incredibly stressful and tiring autopsy and his writing of the report, he got very little sleep. He worked from draft notes taken in the autopsy room. He was asked:”Was the distance between the wound and the external occipital protuberance noted on the notes? Humes responded:”It was not noted in any greater detail than appears in the final report.” The autopsy report only states that it was ‘slightly above’ the occipital protuberance (the x-ray showed that it was around 3.5 inches above) So the exact distance wasn’t noted. Humes added:”It was not noted, with the feeling, of course, that the photographs and x-rays we had made would, of themselves, suffice to accurately locate the wound.

              And the photographs and the x-rays do locate the wound exactly of course. To conclude, Dr. Humes added that they were: “ hampered by our inability, number one , to never have seen, after about midnight of that night, the x-rays, and to never have seen at any time until a year or two after the Warren Commission the photographs we made. I think if we had those opportunities, some of the confusion and difficulties which seem to have arisen might not have arisen.”

              We should not forget the extraordinary circumstances and the great pressures that these men were under. They were only human after all and this is not a major issue by any means.



              What Happened To The Bullet After It Hit Kennedy’s Head?



              The opinions of the pathologists who either conducted the autopsies or closely examined the photographs and x-rays concluded unanimously that the bullet (per the HSCA panel):”proceeded in an essentially straight and forward path,” and exploded out of the right front of the President’s head. The autopsy report described the damage caused by the exiting bullet thus:”a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone [above the ear] but extending somewhat into the temporal [front] and occipital [rear] regions,” And that there was an:”actual absence of scalp and bone,” which produced a hole measuring approximate low cm in its greatest diameter. The Clark Panel said that the wound:”explosively fractured the right frontal and parietal bones as it emerged from the head.” The x-rays of course support these conclusions. Dr. Humes, testifying before the Warren Commission said that the x-rays showed:”multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material [missile fragments] traversing a line from the wound in the occiput [rear head bone] to just above the right eye, with a rather sizeable fragment visible by x-ray just above the right eye. These tiny fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain in between were……extremely minute, less than 1 mm. in size for the most part.

              This shows a clear back to front motion of the fragments passing through the right side of Kennedy’s head. There were none, absolutely none, seen on the left side of his head as there would have been had he been hit by a bullet from the Grassy Knoll on his right.

              The HSCA concurred with this in 1977/78.

              In a 1991 interview with JAMA editor George D. Lundberg, Dr. Humes said this: “In 1963, we proved at the autopsy table that President Kennedy was struck from above and behind by the fatal shot. The pattern of the entrance and exit wounds in the skull proves it, and if we stayed here until hell freezes over, nothing will change this proof. It happens 100 times out of 100, and I will defend it until I die. This is the essence of our autopsy, and it is supreme ignorance to argue any other scenario. This is a law of physics [referring to the fact that with a through and through wound of the cranium it is “always the pattern,” he said, that “the bevelling or crater effect appears on the inside of the skull at the entrance wound and on the outside of the skull at the exit wound”] and it is foolproof. The conspiracy buffs have totally ignored this scientific fact, and everything else is hogwash.”

              It couldn’t really be clearer could it?


              The Wound To Kennedy’s Back.


              As per the autopsy report, the wound in Kennedy’s upper right back was a 7 x 4 mm oval entrance wound. Basically, just above his right shoulder blade. The HSCS panel of 9 forensic pathologists:” unanimously concluded that a bullet entered the upper right back of the President.” So they absolutely concurred that Kennedy was shot from behind.

              At the Shaw trial, Dr. Finck stated that the edges of the wound were pushed inward and contained an abrasion collar (which only occurs with entrance wounds) The HSCA agreed saying that the wound contained an:” abrasion collar resulting from the bullet scraping the margins of the skin at the moment of penetration,” and that this effect was characteristic of:”wounds of entrance and not typical of exit wounds.” They also noted that the abrasion collar was:” most prominent between the 1 and 7 o’clock positions,” leading the panel to conclude that the bullet was moving from left to right, perfectly consistent with a shot from the TSBD.

              To add to this conclusive evidence the autopsy report noted that the Doctor’s found:” coagulation necrosis of the tissue at the wound margins,” establishing categorically, as with the head wound, that the wound to Kennedy’s back was an entrance wound.

              And to conclude this section, an FBI examination of the President’s clothing confirmed that the wound in his back was an entrance wound. Robert Frazier told the Warren Commission that there was a 5 and three eighth inches hole below the top of his collar and 1 and three quarters of an inch to the right of the middle seam. The hole was circular in shape and the:” cloth fibres around the margins of the hole were pushed inwards.” Then a spectrographic examination of the fabric around the hole showed tiny traces of copper consistent with the ammunition from Oswald’s rifle. Frazier examination of Kennedy’s shirt revealed a hole 5 and three quarters of an inch below the top of the collar and 1 and an eighth inches to the right of the midline of the shirt. It matched the jacket perfectly and the WC and the HSCA concurred. The threads of the shirt around the hole, unsurprisingly, were pushed inwards. Exactly like an entrance wound.

              The Clerk Panel concurred that the wound to Kennedy’s back was an entrance wound.

              I’ll conclude this section with Dr. Cyril Wecht. There’s rarely a conspiracy documentary that Wecht doesn’t appear on. He’s the conspiracy theorists ‘go to’ medical man. At the London Trial he was asked by the dreaded (to conspiracy theorists at least) Vincent Bugliosi:” Doctor, even though from a professional perspective you don’t think too much of the autopsy surgeon’s report, you do agree 100% with their findings; to wit, that the bullet wound to the President’s upper back and the bullet wound to the back of the President’s head we’re both entry wounds and not exit wounds, and hence, the bullets were fired from the President’s rear. Is that correct?” To which Wecht replied:”Yes.”

              I’d say game over for the conspiracist’s but the ‘game’ never existed in the first place. Conspiracist smoke and mirrors.


              The Direct Of The Bullet Through The President’s Back.


              After having photographs taken Humes and Finck tried to probe the wound to track its direction. Humes could only penetrate around half an inch using his little finger but Finck, using a metal probe, penetrated around 2-4 inches. Both indicated a downward trajectory but Humes said that:”attempts to probe in the vicinity of the wound were unsuccessful without fear of making a false passage….We were unable….to take probes and have them satisfactorily fall through any definite path..” In 1996 Dr. Boswell said:” We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong [they] had closed the hole and you couldn’t get a finger or a probe through it.”

              Finck then looked at the tracheotomy incision, made by Dr. Malcolm Perry at Parkland in an effort to save Kennedy’s life, but they couldn’t locate an exit would because the tracheotomy wound had obscured it. Finck wanted to see the President’s clothing to confirm the exit wound but it had been taken into custody at Parkland Hospital. Boswell was asked in 1996 if it would have been normal to have had the clothes available, to which he replied:” Well, under normal circumstances, but these were not normal circumstances.” A point that conspiracy theorists never fail to neglect when forming their opinions.

              Finck saw the clothes at the Warren Commission in 1964 and wrote in 1965:” immediately below the upper button of the front [of the President’s shirt] is a bullet hole perforating both flaps of the shirt, right and left. There is dry blood on the margins of both holes. The innermost fibres directed outward, which indicates an exit perforation. The outermost hole shows this outward orientation of the bloody shirt fibres, but to a lesser extent.” The FBI’s examination concurred.

              But at the autopsy they had no way of finding the exit wound without the clothing and with the tracheotomy hole so did they ignore the issue like good little conspiracy stooges? They had only x-rays for Kennedy’s head but Dr. Finck insisted on an x-ray of Kennedy’s body before continuing. They waited more than an hour for the results which were negative. There were no bullets inside Kennedy’s body except for the fragments seen on the skull x-ray. Therefore the bullet had exited Kennedy.

              They later learned that the bullet had been found on a trolley which caused Humes to theorise that the bullet had been stopped in its path and then fallen out of the President’s body. Next morning Humes phoned Dr. Perry at Parkland and asked him if the bullet could have fallen out during heart massage but Perry thought this unlikely. Perry said in front of the HSCA panel:” But at any rate, when I told him that there was a wound in the front neck, lower third, he [Humes] said ‘that explains it.’” This tied in with an observation made by Humes at the autopsy that when examining the tracheotomy he had found bruising on the apex of the right plural cavity containing the right lung yet the chest incisions made at Parkland left no bruising. Medical experience led him to conclude that the incisions were made during the President’s death throes, when blood circulation had almost stopped. Humes said that Perry told him that the tracheotomy and chest incisions were made at the same time. Therefore the bruises the neck couldn’t have been caused by the tracheotomy because the circulation of the blood was nearly non-existent at the time. They had to have occurred while Kennedy’s heart and lungs were still functioning. Therefore they could only have occurred prior to Parkland, therefore at the time of the shooting. So that damage had to have been caused by a bullet entering the President’s and exiting the throat.

              The Warren Commission, the HSCA’s 9 pathologists, and the Clark Panel all concurred all agreed on the path of the bullet. At the London trial, Dr. Charles S. Petty, a member of the HSCA pathology panel was asked about the bullets that struck Kennedy. He said: “ The conclusion of the panel was that the President was struck by two bullets, one entering the right upper back and exiting the front of the neck, the other entering the right back of his head and exiting in what we call the right frontal area, that is, the front and side of the head.”

              How can there be a single doubt about this? Who should we believe, Oliver Stone, numerous conspiracy theorists, Super Nurse Bell or the 3 pathologists that actually performed the autopsy and the 14 other pathologists who, over 3 separate investigations after minutely examining all of the evidence (including photographs and x-rays) who 100% confirmed their verdict?


              The Doctor’s At Parkland Hospital.


              The majority of the conspiracy theorists ‘fuel’ on medical issues comes from the Doctor’s at Parkland whose sole job was to save the President’s life and not to analyse wounds. They worked under extremely trying circumstances and were as stunned as anyone to have John F. Kennedy lying in front of them and with being taxed to save his life when it was obvious to all that there was no chance of him surviving his horrendous wounds. These Doctors were largely interns and residents who had only 22 minutes with the body. How can their observations be claimed to trump those of the pathologist who, along with training, had the time to examine the President minutely. Most of them claimed that the large head wound was at the right rear as opposed to the right front. The main Doctor quoted by conspiracy theorists is Dr. Robert McClelland who went even further and said that the wound was to the rear of the President’s head. Two months before the Warren Commission though the Texas State Journal of Medicine contacted the the Parkland Doctors who actually treated Kennedy (they listed 7) for their impressions. McClelland said that:” the cause of death was a wound to the right side of the head.” But he later changed his mind.

              McClelland drew an often repeated sketch for the conspiracy buffs showing a massive wound to the rear of Kennedy’s head. He also said that he saw a piece of cerebellum fall from Kennedy’s head onto a stretcher. Although the autopsy report stated that a major part of the right cerebellum was protruding there isn’t a single mention of any part of it being missing or even of being lacerated. Dr. Michael Baden of the HSCA said that: “ x-rays and autopsy photos show that although there was damage to the cerebrum, the cerebellum was completely intact and that any Doctors at Parkland who said that they saw damage to the cerebellum were just wrong. They just saw brain tissue in blood on Kennedy’s hair and made an incorrect assumption.” With the head wound being as high up as it was it would have been close to impossible for the cerebellum [which is in the lower part of the brain] to have become damaged by a bullet. Of course the conspiracy theorists want this to be true because it would indicate a rear exit wound but this simply isn’t backed up by the evidence that CT’s ignore. Several Parkland Doctors claim to have seen this though. One of them was Dr. Jenkins who changed his mind after being shown the autopsy photos. He later claimed that he’d actually meant cerebrum.

              The dreaded Vincent Bugliosi spoke to one of those Doctors, Dr. Charles Carrico and asked him if it was possible that the Parkland Doctors might have been in error. He replied:” Oh, absolutely……looking at the shredded pieces of brain on the gurney, it looked like some of it had the characteristics of cerebellum, which kind of has a wavy surface. But because these brain pieces were shredded, this could easily have led to confusion as to whether it was all cerebrum - which has broader bands across the surface - or some cerebellum.”

              In 1994 when Dr. Boswell was asked about Dr. Kemp Clark’s claim to have seen exposed cerebellar tissue, he responded:” He was wrong. The right side of the cerebrum was so fragmented. I think what he saw and misinterpreted as cerebellum was that.”

              Conspiracy theorist don’t think mistakes can occur though when it suits them.

              I don’t think that anyone has ever suggested that Dr. McClelland lied, Bugliosi certainly didn’t even imply it, but it’s interesting to hear his ‘suggested’ explanation as to how the Zapruder film shows the back of Kennedy’s head to have been intact he said, and hold onto your hats for this cracker: “What the explanation for this is, I just don’t know, but what I believe happened is that the spray of brain matter and blood was like a bloodscreen, similar to a smokescreen, that precluded the view of the occipital area!”

              Can you believe it? You can see the occipital area in the Zapruder film so nothing is being hidden. There was no massive wound. McClelland was provably mistaken but CT’s hang on desperately to him. McClelland believes that Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll but when asked why 17 pathologists, including Cyril Wecht, said that Kennedy was hit by 2 shots both from the rear, he said:” I’m not a pathologist and I’ve never conducted an autopsy…..I don’t know the answer to your question.” He also made the claim that in the autopsy photograph someone deliberately closed up the wound flap. Then when asked why he’d written on a Parkland admission note at 4.45 pm that Kennedy had died:”from a gunshot wound to the left temple.” He weakly replied:” Yes, that was a mistake. I never saw any wound to the President’s left temple. Dr. Jenkins told me there was a wound there, though he later denied telling me this.” Conspiracy theorist Robert Groden, often quoted on the Forum, simply altered McClelland’s “left temple” to “right temple” in his book The Killing Of A President.

              Then, when Bugliosi phoned McClelland again for a further conversation he said:” since we hung up last night, I’ve had some second thoughts about the exact location of the exit wound……I have to say that the sketch I first drew for Josiah Thompson’s book a few years after the assassination was misleading. [ The very same drawing that was used by George in post #491, which I assume he’ll now gloss over?] Since last night, I’ve been thinking that I placed the large hole in the President’s head farther back than it really was, maybe. It may have been a bit more forward.” When asked where he’d now place the wound he said:” Partially in the occipital region and partly in the right back part of the parietal bone.” This of course is entirely consistent with the Warren Report and the HSCA. But this non-pathologist still concludes that the large exit wound was not to the right frontal area as the 17 pathologists have proven that it was.

              There are even examples of people claimed by conspiracy theorists to have supposedly seen a back of the head wound but when asked they’d said no such thing. One man called Stover said that he’d seen a wound on top of the head which conspiracy theorists claimed as the back of the head. It really does go on. There are more examples but I can’t be bothered.

              I think that we can safely leave Dr. McClelland and those few understandably mistaken young Doctors to the conspiracy theorist to desperately hang onto (misleading diagrams and all) whilst the sensible listen to the 17 pathologists who’s verdicts cannot be disputed.



              Inescapable Conclusion.


              Three honourable, decent pathologists undertook the autopsy of the President under trying circumstances. They made mistakes but they were not dishonest. The Oliver Stone myth about shady a shady general running the autopsy is clearly exposed as just that. A pathetic myth. The pathologists conclusions added to the categorically genuine photographs and x-rays should have been enough for any reasonable, sensible, non-paranoid person but it clearly wasn’t for some who sought to and still seek to dishonestly magnify trivialities and errors. So there were 4 inquiries held over the years. The unfairly and unreasonably maligned Warren Commission (who certainly made errors but were not corrupt - the suggestion is a ludicrous and baseless slur.) Then there was The Clark Panel, The Rockerfeller Commission and the HSCA. So total, 17 honest, experienced and knowledgeable pathologists (including conspiracist favourite Cyril Wecht) examined the body at the autopsy, the President’s clothing, the autopsy x-rays and the autopsy photographs and what was the result?



              They concluded absolutely unanimously and with not a shred of doubt that Kennedy was hit by two bullets and both were fired from the upper right rear.


              Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 02-25-2023, 11:53 PM.
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

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              • Just a few witnesses.
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                They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                Out of a misty dream
                Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                Within a dream.
                Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

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                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                  Kennedy’s Wounds, the Autopsy and Conspiracy Theorist Lies and manipulations.


                  I’ll first apologise for the length of this post but it’s a complex subject that has been manipulated by conspiracy theorist over the years to the point where complete fantasy and blatant manipulation have been accepted as ‘fact.’ Helped of course by Oliver Stone’s entertaining piece of conspiracist propaganda. A powerful tool indeed. I’ve broken this down into topics hopefully to make it easier to read. As I, quite remarkably, get accused by two posters (who fully admit to reading only conspiracist versions of events) of dodging points, even though the evidence is there for all to see that it’s me that constantly answers in detail while they duck and dive, I wanted to do this in detail with a list of headline points. I know that film footage of Oswald killing Kennedy wouldn’t change the mind of a committed conspiracy theorist but I’d ask others to read with an open mind. I’ve made nothing up. I’ve manipulated nothing. I’ve done no selective quoting. If there are any errors then they are not intentional. Im not a conspirator. I used to be. But I’m definitely not now.


                  Where the Doctor’s at Bethesda Hospital Competent To Perform The Autopsy?


                  That claim that errors were made at the autopsy is absolutely proven, but claims such as that made by conspiracy theorist Harold Weisberg that it was unworthy of a “Bowery bum,” is typical exaggeration and is now taken as ‘fact’ by many. No consideration is ever given to the extraordinary circumstances that it was performed under (more of that later). Vincent Bugliosi (yes, I know that CT’s tend to foam at the mouth at the mere mention of his name) in his book, makes the interesting comparison to the autopsy of Abraham Lincoln. The report of his autopsy is something like a mere four paragraphs long and yet Bugliosi was able to bring up numerous errors and unanswered questions which would have provided fertile ground for suggestions of conspiracy. So who were the three Doctor’s who performed the autopsy on the President?

                  First, and in overall charge, was Dr. James J. Humes, the senior pathologist and director of laboratories at the Naval Medical School at Bethesda Hospital. Humes was qualified in clinical and anatomical pathology but, it has been pointed out that his training in forensic pathology was limited to a course at the Armed Forces Institute Of Pathology which focused mainly on deaths from natural causes. Some, including conspiracy theorists of course, have made much of this by claiming that he had no experience of gunshot wounds. This is not correct, although he certainly couldn’t be considered an expert. In an interview with the Journal of the American Medical Association, Humes had performed several autopsies on soldiers killed by gunshot wounds and he confirmed this in 1996 in front of the Assassination Records Review Board. So he did have some experience in bullet trauma although he certainly was no specialist. No one has ever claimed otherwise.

                  Next was Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, Chief of Pathology of the Naval Medical School. He was certified in clinical and pathological anatomy but was not a forensic pathologist either. This was why Humes insisted on the presence of the third doctor.

                  This was Dr. Pierre A. Finck, a fully certified forensic pathologist who, at the time of the autopsy was chief of the Wound Ballistics Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces. Whilst in this role he reviewed 400+ cases (civilian and military) many involving bullet wounds. Between 1955 and 1958 he had personally performed around 200 autopsies many involving bullet wounds in his capacity as pathologist at the US Hospital in Frankfurt.

                  So these were the 3 autopsy Doctors. All eminent men. All with no questions against their integrity. One of the criticisms levelled by conspiracy theorists is the allegation that the military was in charge of the autopsy. To our next point.


                  Was The Military In Charge Of Kennedy’s Autopsy?


                  This point came from a comment made by Dr. Finck at the trial of Clay Shaw. He heard Humes say: “who is in charge here?” to which an unnamed army general replied: “I am.” Oliver Stone made much of this in his movie and conspiracy buffs naturally never give the entire quote. When Finck was pressed as to the name of the general that was in charge of the autopsy he replied: “There was no general in charge of the autopsy.” Finck suggested that the general was talking about overall and not the autopsy itself. Another piece of misleading quoting (to put it politely) was also related to Finck at the Shaw trial where he said: “ There were admirals, and when you are a lieutenant colonel in the Army (as he was) you just follow orders.” Conspiracy theorists endlessly quote this as evidence of military control but, as ever, things aren’t as they seem. Yet again conspiracy theorists quote selectively. They leave out what Finck said after “you just follow orders,” which was: “And at the end of the autopsy we were specifically told….by Admiral Kenney, the Surgeon General of the Navy….not to discus the case.” More editing that Big Brother would have approved of.

                  According to conspiracy theorists there were God knows how many generals and admirals present, many of them nameless, shady figures (like someone from the X-Files) but unfortunately for them FBI agents Francis X. O’Neill Jnr and James W. Siberia listed everyone present at the autopsy. There were four. They were Rear Admiral George C. Burkley, the President’s Personal Physician. Admiral Calvin B. Calloway, who was the commanding officer of Bethesda Hospital. General Godfrey McHugh, who was the President’s Military Attaché. Major General Philip Wehle, commanding officer of the U.S. military district of Washington. None of them ‘mysterious’. None of them ‘shady.’ All of them highly respected. And all of them had every business being with the President at the time. Medical Corpsman Paul Kelley O’Connor told an interviewer that he remembered the “I am,” as coming from Burkley, which makes sense as he was Kennedy’s personal physician.

                  So it’s very obvious when checking the facts that the military were not in charge of the autopsy. Jackie Kennedy though wanted only a partial autopsy, supported by Buckley who said that because they had heard that the killer had been caught so they only required the bullet for evidence. Humes confirmed that due to the concerns of the family Buckley wanted to expedite the autopsy but the Doctors had problems which meant that they could speed things up. The idea of anything untoward is clearly nonsense and is disproven when the matter was settled when, after checking with the FBI and Secret Service, Rear Admiral Galloway ordered that it be a full autopsy. The movie JFK shows the military suppressing the autopsy over the wishes of the family when the evidence proves conclusively that the military ordered a full autopsy over the wishes of the family. The family clearly wanted a shorter autopsy. The didn’t want the presidency brain dissected and they didn’t want the doctors to access the adrenal glands because they were still keen to keep from the public that the President had Addison’s Disease. So the Doctors felt under some time pressure from the family but they were asked if it materially affected the autopsy. Boswell said: I don’t think it interfered with the manner in which we did the autopsy.” Humes replied: “I don’t either.”

                  Conspiracy theorists often say that the retired Dr. Earl Rose was the man who should have been in charge of the autopsy but he was enjoying his retirement too much. Rose was asked if, from looking at the x-rays and autopsy photos, that the doctors had got their conclusions correct. His answer? “ Yes, there’s no question that their conclusions were correct. Two shots entered the President from behind…..

                  The military were provably not in charge of the autopsy. It’s another conspiracist myth. We now have another conspiracist myth to deal with.


                  Were The Autopsy X-Rays and Photographs Faked?


                  That this question should require a response is an embarrassment to the subject but since we’re in the Matrix…

                  During the HSCA investigation they consulted with experts in Pathology, Forensic Dentistry, photography, radiology and forensic pathology. The anthropologist studied the photographs and concluded that they were beyond doubt photographs of Kennedy. They also checked x-rays of Kennedy from before and after his death focusing on minute details like cranial sutures, vascular grooves and air cells of the mastoid bone and concluded that there could be zero reasonable doubt the the autopsy x-rays were of Kennedy. Then forensic Odontologist Dt. Lowell J. Levine examined x-rays of Kennedy’s teeth and compared them to the autopsy x-rays and concluded, based on the unique positioning of the teeth in relation to each other, the size and shape of his fillings and many other detailed characteristics and concluded that the autopsy x-rays were: “unquestionably of the skull of President John F. Kennedy” and that they could not be simulated or faked.”

                  The HSCA also showed the x-rays and photographs to its own panel of photographic experts who concluded that there was absolutely no evidence of tampering, altering or any form of fakery.

                  The autopsy x-rays and photographs were provably absolutely genuine. So next we have the conspiracists claim about the wounds.


                  Was The Wound At The Back Of Kennedy’s Head An Exit Or Entry Wound?


                  Humes, Boswell and Finck concluded of course that it was an entrance wound indicating a shot from the rear despite what Kevin Costner tells us. The head wound showed every characteristic of an entry wound. The hole was 15 mm x 6 mm slightly less that the 6.5 MM dimension of the bullet. Dr. Humes explain that this was because of the: “elastic recoil of the tissues of the skin. It is not infrequent…..that the measured wound is slightly smaller than the calibre of the bullet that traversed it.” The bullet was descending at 16 degrees below the horizontal according to the HSCA estimation, and from a point of 29 degrees due north of the President which is entirely consistent with a shot from the easternmost window or the 6th floor of the TSBD. This bullet struck Kennedy at an angle causing a 15 mm cut in a slicing action. This is also consistent with a rifle location of behind the President’s right ear. When Humes peeled back the scalp he said that there was a: “through and through defect [in the skull] corresponding with the wound in the scalp.

                  More evidence that this was an entry would was that when they looked inside the skull to look at the margins of the bones they saw a clear ‘bevelling,’ (sometimes called ‘coning’ or ‘cratering’) This only occurs on the opposite side of the bone to the one that was first struck. So the wound on the inside is larger than the one on the outside. There could be no clearer evidence that the wound to the rear of Kennedy’s head was an entry wound. Therefore the shot had to have come from behind. There can be no other explanation. The bevelled edges of bone were even mentioned in the Lincoln autopsy. Dr. Finck told the HSCA: “the hole in the skull in the back of the head showed no crater when examined from the outside of the skull, but when I examined the inside of the skull at the level of that bone I saw a crater, and to me that was a positive, unquestionable finding identifying a wound entry in the back of the head.” He’d said exactly the same thing at the trial of Clay Shaw. In an interview with Dan Rather in 1967 Dr. Humes was asked: “Can you be absolutely certain that the wound you described as an entry wound was, in fact, that?” To which Humes replied:” Yes, indeed, we can, very precisely and incontrovertibly….And: Is there any doubt that the wound at the back of the President’s head was the entry wound?” Answer: “There is absolutely no doubt, sir.”

                  As if the bevelling wasn’t enough proof the HSCA experts also noted that the:” margin of this wound [to the President’s head], from 3 to 10 o’clock, is surrounded by a crescent shaped reddish black area of denudiation….presenting the appearance of an abrasion collar resulting from the rubbing of the skin by the bullet at the time of penetration.” Dr. Baden testified that:”an abrasion collar is characteristic of an entrance wound.” Dr. Cyril Wecht, member of the HSCA panel and well known conspiracy theorist said that the term abrasion collar is a popular term in law enforcement because it’s visible to the naked eye and will only appear for certain if a bullet enters at an angle. As in the case of Kennedy.

                  Even after this, there is further evidence that it was indeed an entry wound. The autopsy surgeons at Bethesda also found something called “coagulation necrosis of the tissues” on the inner margin of the head wound. Dr. Wecht admitted in 1967 that coagulation necrosis was a sure sign of an entry wound. He further stated that whilst not all gunshot wounds have abrasion collars all have coagulation necrosis. Wecht was also asked if the finding of coagulation necrosis in an autopsy showed sophistication. He agreed that it did then he was further asked how this squared with the accusation that the autopsy was amateurish? He replied that this would have come from the expertise of Dr. Finck. Remember….Finck’s presence was specifically requested for just that reason. As Finck said, he was called on:” specifically to interpret the wounds.

                  Conspiracy theories often cite the fact that the Warren Commission never viewed the autopsy x-rays and photographs and that’s why they were wrong. But they fail to add that the 3 later groups, including the HSCA, did view the x-rays and photographs and they all came to exactly the same conclusion as the WC. That the wounds came from the rear. The HSCA, with 9 pathologists on its panel, stated that:” The President was struck by a bullet….that entered in the right rear of the head near the cowlick area.” They added that:” there is no medical evidence” that the President as struck from the front.

                  The Clark Panel in 1968 and The Rockerfeller Commission in 1975 came to exactly the same conclusion. The Clark Panel, for example, said: “ the decedent’s head was struck from behind by a single projectile.” The Rockerfeller Commission said that the bullet was :” fired from the rear” and that there was:”no evidence to support the claim that the President was struck by a bullet fired from either the Grassy Knoll or any other position to his front.” The Rockerfeller Commission pointed out that even Dr. Cyril Wecht, darling of the conspiracy theorists, had testified before them that the evidence established that there was only one head shot and that it came from the rear.

                  So to sum up this section - the 3 pathologists who performed the autopsy, the 9 pathologists on the HSCA panel, the 3 pathologists and 1 radiologist from The Rockerfeller Commission - that’s 17 pathologists! (including conspiracy theorist Cyril Wecht) all testified that based on the evidence that the wound on the back of the President’s head was an entrance wound.

                  Could anything be more certain?


                  The Three Doctor’s Incorrect Locating Of The Head Wound.


                  Doctor’s like all of us, make errors. Humes report placed the wound 3 inches above its actual location as shown in the photographs and x-rays. Could there have been 2 wounds? Absolutely not because 17 pathologists tell us not. As many people do when asked about a possible error Humes and Boswell dug their heals in and said that the photographs were misleading and an HSCA memo said that Humes was reluctant to second guess what he’d written 14 years earlier. Humes all felt that x-rays and photographs have certain limitations that aren’t present when you are actually viewing the subject. Finck agreed saying that viewing the photographs wasn’t the same as viewing the actual body. In front of the HSCA, whilst not giving up his opinion when confronted with the discrepancy, he said:”Well, I have a little trouble with that; 10 centimetres is….significant - 4 inches” (In reality the difference was 9 centimetres or 3.5 inches) The HSCA noted that Humes seemed less certain that his initial placement was correct.

                  The HSCA did however come up with a very reasonable, plausible and understandable possible explanation for this discrepancy. Humes himself said that, between the conclusion of what must have been an incredibly stressful and tiring autopsy and his writing of the report, he got very little sleep. He worked from draft notes taken in the autopsy room. He was asked:”Was the distance between the wound and the external occipital protuberance noted on the notes? Humes responded:”It was not noted in any greater detail than appears in the final report.” The autopsy report only states that it was ‘slightly above’ the occipital protuberance (the x-ray showed that it was around 3.5 inches above) So the exact distance wasn’t noted. Humes added:”It was not noted, with the feeling, of course, that the photographs and x-rays we had made would, of themselves, suffice to accurately locate the wound.

                  And the photographs and the x-rays do locate the wound exactly of course. To conclude, Dr. Humes added that they were: “ hampered by our inability, number one , to never have seen, after about midnight of that night, the x-rays, and to never have seen at any time until a year or two after the Warren Commission the photographs we made. I think if we had those opportunities, some of the confusion and difficulties which seem to have arisen might not have arisen.”

                  We should not forget the extraordinary circumstances and the great pressures that these men were under. They were only human after all and this is not a major issue by any means.



                  What Happened To The Bullet After It Hit Kennedy’s Head?



                  The opinions of the pathologists who either conducted the autopsies or closely examined the photographs and x-rays concluded unanimously that the bullet (per the HSCA panel):”proceeded in an essentially straight and forward path,” and exploded out of the right front of the President’s head. The autopsy report described the damage caused by the exiting bullet thus:”a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone [above the ear] but extending somewhat into the temporal [front] and occipital [rear] regions,” And that there was an:”actual absence of scalp and bone,” which produced a hole measuring approximate low cm in its greatest diameter. The Clark Panel said that the wound:”explosively fractured the right frontal and parietal bones as it emerged from the head.” The x-rays of course support these conclusions. Dr. Humes, testifying before the Warren Commission said that the x-rays showed:”multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material [missile fragments] traversing a line from the wound in the occiput [rear head bone] to just above the right eye, with a rather sizeable fragment visible by x-ray just above the right eye. These tiny fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain in between were……extremely minute, less than 1 mm. in size for the most part.

                  This shows a clear back to front motion of the fragments passing through the right side of Kennedy’s head. There were none, absolutely none, seen on the left side of his head as there would have been had he been hit by a bullet from the Grassy Knoll on his right.

                  The HSCA concurred with this in 1977/78.

                  In a 1991 interview with JAMA editor George D. Lundberg, Dr. Humes said this: “In 1963, we proved at the autopsy table that President Kennedy was struck from above and behind by the fatal shot. The pattern of the entrance and exit wounds in the skull proves it, and if we stayed here until hell freezes over, nothing will change this proof. It happens 100 times out of 100, and I will defend it until I die. This is the essence of our autopsy, and it is supreme ignorance to argue any other scenario. This is a law of physics [referring to the fact that with a through and through wound of the cranium it is “always the pattern,” he said, that “the bevelling or crater effect appears on the inside of the skull at the entrance wound and on the outside of the skull at the exit wound”] and it is foolproof. The conspiracy buffs have totally ignored this scientific fact, and everything else is hogwash.”

                  It couldn’t really be clearer could it?


                  The Wound To Kennedy’s Back.


                  As per the autopsy report, the wound in Kennedy’s upper right back was a 7 x 4 mm oval entrance wound. Basically, just above his right shoulder blade. The HSCS panel of 9 forensic pathologists:” unanimously concluded that a bullet entered the upper right back of the President.” So they absolutely concurred that Kennedy was shot from behind.

                  At the Shaw trial, Dr. Finck stated that the edges of the wound were pushed inward and contained an abrasion collar (which only occurs with entrance wounds) The HSCA agreed saying that the wound contained an:” abrasion collar resulting from the bullet scraping the margins of the skin at the moment of penetration,” and that this effect was characteristic of:”wounds of entrance and not typical of exit wounds.” They also noted that the abrasion collar was:” most prominent between the 1 and 7 o’clock positions,” leading the panel to conclude that the bullet was moving from left to right, perfectly consistent with a shot from the TSBD.

                  To add to this conclusive evidence the autopsy report noted that the Doctor’s found:” coagulation necrosis of the tissue at the wound margins,” establishing categorically, as with the head wound, that the wound to Kennedy’s back was an entrance wound.

                  And to conclude this section, an FBI examination of the President’s clothing confirmed that the wound in his back was an entrance wound. Robert Frazier told the Warren Commission that there was a 5 and three eighth inches hole below the top of his collar and 1 and three quarters of an inch to the right of the middle seam. The hole was circular in shape and the:” cloth fibres around the margins of the hole were pushed inwards.” Then a spectrographic examination of the fabric around the hole showed tiny traces of copper consistent with the ammunition from Oswald’s rifle. Frazier examination of Kennedy’s shirt revealed a hole 5 and three quarters of an inch below the top of the collar and 1 and an eighth inches to the right of the midline of the shirt. It matched the jacket perfectly and the WC and the HSCA concurred. The threads of the shirt around the hole, unsurprisingly, were pushed inwards. Exactly like an entrance wound.

                  The Clerk Panel concurred that the wound to Kennedy’s back was an entrance wound.

                  I’ll conclude this section with Dr. Cyril Wecht. There’s rarely a conspiracy documentary that Wecht doesn’t appear on. He’s the conspiracy theorists ‘go to’ medical man. At the London Trial he was asked by the dreaded (to conspiracy theorists at least) Vincent Bugliosi:” Doctor, even though from a professional perspective you don’t think too much of the autopsy surgeon’s report, you do agree 100% with their findings; to wit, that the bullet wound to the President’s upper back and the bullet wound to the back of the President’s head we’re both entry wounds and not exit wounds, and hence, the bullets were fired from the President’s rear. Is that correct?” To which Wecht replied:”Yes.”

                  I’d say game over for the conspiracist’s but the ‘game’ never existed in the first place. Conspiracist smoke and mirrors.


                  The Direct Of The Bullet Through The President’s Back.


                  After having photographs taken Humes and Finck tried to probe the wound to track its direction. Humes could only penetrate around half an inch using his little finger but Finck, using a metal probe, penetrated around 2-4 inches. Both indicated a downward trajectory but Humes said that:”attempts to probe in the vicinity of the wound were unsuccessful without fear of making a false passage….We were unable….to take probes and have them satisfactorily fall through any definite path..” In 1996 Dr. Boswell said:” We probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong [they] had closed the hole and you couldn’t get a finger or a probe through it.”

                  Finck then looked at the tracheotomy incision, made by Dr. Malcolm Perry at Parkland in an effort to save Kennedy’s life, but they couldn’t locate an exit would because the tracheotomy wound had obscured it. Finck wanted to see the President’s clothing to confirm the exit wound but it had been taken into custody at Parkland Hospital. Boswell was asked in 1996 if it would have been normal to have had the clothes available, to which he replied:” Well, under normal circumstances, but these were not normal circumstances.” A point that conspiracy theorists never fail to neglect when forming their opinions.

                  Finck saw the clothes at the Warren Commission in 1964 and wrote in 1965:” immediately below the upper button of the front [of the President’s shirt] is a bullet hole perforating both flaps of the shirt, right and left. There is dry blood on the margins of both holes. The innermost fibres directed outward, which indicates an exit perforation. The outermost hole shows this outward orientation of the bloody shirt fibres, but to a lesser extent.” The FBI’s examination concurred.

                  But at the autopsy they had no way of finding the exit wound without the clothing and with the tracheotomy hole so did they ignore the issue like good little conspiracy stooges? They had only x-rays for Kennedy’s head but Dr. Finck insisted on an x-ray of Kennedy’s body before continuing. They waited more than an hour for the results which were negative. There were no bullets inside Kennedy’s body except for the fragments seen on the skull x-ray. Therefore the bullet had exited Kennedy.

                  They later learned that the bullet had been found on a trolley which caused Humes to theorise that the bullet had been stopped in its path and then fallen out of the President’s body. Next morning Humes phoned Dr. Perry at Parkland and asked him if the bullet could have fallen out during heart massage but Perry thought this unlikely. Perry said in front of the HSCA panel:” But at any rate, when I told him that there was a wound in the front neck, lower third, he [Humes] said ‘that explains it.’” This tied in with an observation made by Humes at the autopsy that when examining the tracheotomy he had found bruising on the apex of the right plural cavity containing the right lung yet the chest incisions made at Parkland left no bruising. Medical experience led him to conclude that the incisions were made during the President’s death throes, when blood circulation had almost stopped. Humes said that Perry told him that the tracheotomy and chest incisions were made at the same time. Therefore the bruises the neck couldn’t have been caused by the tracheotomy because the circulation of the blood was nearly non-existent at the time. They had to have occurred while Kennedy’s heart and lungs were still functioning. Therefore they could only have occurred prior to Parkland, therefore at the time of the shooting. So that damage had to have been caused by a bullet entering the President’s and exiting the throat.

                  The Warren Commission, the HSCA’s 9 pathologists, and the Clark Panel all concurred all agreed on the path of the bullet. At the London trial, Dr. Charles S. Petty, a member of the HSCA pathology panel was asked about the bullets that struck Kennedy. He said: “ The conclusion of the panel was that the President was struck by two bullets, one entering the right upper back and exiting the front of the neck, the other entering the right back of his head and exiting in what we call the right frontal area, that is, the front and side of the head.”

                  How can there be a single doubt about this? Who should we believe, Oliver Stone, numerous conspiracy theorists, Super Nurse Bell or the 3 pathologists that actually performed the autopsy and the 14 other pathologists who, over 3 separate investigations after minutely examining all of the evidence (including photographs and x-rays) who 100% confirmed their verdict?


                  The Doctor’s At Parkland Hospital.


                  The majority of the conspiracy theorists ‘fuel’ on medical issues comes from the Doctor’s at Parkland whose sole job was to save the President’s life and not to analyse wounds. They worked under extremely trying circumstances and were as stunned as anyone to have John F. Kennedy lying in front of them and with being taxed to save his life when it was obvious to all that there was no chance of him surviving his horrendous wounds. These Doctors were largely interns and residents who had only 22 minutes with the body. How can their observations be claimed to trump those of the pathologist who, along with training, had the time to examine the President minutely. Most of them claimed that the large head wound was at the right rear as opposed to the right front. The main Doctor quoted by conspiracy theorists is Dr. Robert McClelland who went even further and said that the wound was to the rear of the President’s head. Two months before the Warren Commission though the Texas State Journal of Medicine contacted the the Parkland Doctors who actually treated Kennedy (they listed 7) for their impressions. McClelland said that:” the cause of death was a wound to the right side of the head.” But he later changed his mind.

                  McClelland drew an often repeated sketch for the conspiracy buffs showing a massive wound to the rear of Kennedy’s head. He also said that he saw a piece of cerebellum fall from Kennedy’s head onto a stretcher. Although the autopsy report stated that a major part of the right cerebellum was protruding there isn’t a single mention of any part of it being missing or even of being lacerated. Dr. Michael Baden of the HSCA said that: “ x-rays and autopsy photos show that although there was damage to the cerebrum, the cerebellum was completely intact and that any Doctors at Parkland who said that they saw damage to the cerebellum were just wrong. They just saw brain tissue in blood on Kennedy’s hair and made an incorrect assumption.” With the head wound being as high up as it was it would have been close to impossible for the cerebellum [which is in the lower part of the brain] to have become damaged by a bullet. Of course the conspiracy theorists want this to be true because it would indicate a rear exit wound but this simply isn’t backed up by the evidence that CT’s ignore. Several Parkland Doctors claim to have seen this though. One of them was Dr. Jenkins who changed his mind after being shown the autopsy photos. He later claimed that he’d actually meant cerebrum.

                  The dreaded Vincent Bugliosi spoke to one of those Doctors, Dr. Charles Carrico and asked him if it was possible that the Parkland Doctors might have been in error. He replied:” Oh, absolutely……looking at the shredded pieces of brain on the gurney, it looked like some of it had the characteristics of cerebellum, which kind of has a wavy surface. But because these brain pieces were shredded, this could easily have led to confusion as to whether it was all cerebrum - which has broader bands across the surface - or some cerebellum.”

                  In 1994 when Dr. Boswell was asked about Dr. Kemp Clark’s claim to have seen exposed cerebellar tissue, he responded:” He was wrong. The right side of the cerebrum was so fragmented. I think what he saw and misinterpreted as cerebellum was that.”

                  Conspiracy theorist don’t think mistakes can occur though when it suits them.

                  I don’t think that anyone has ever suggested that Dr. McClelland lied, Bugliosi certainly didn’t even imply it, but it’s interesting to hear his ‘suggested’ explanation as to how the Zapruder film shows the back of Kennedy’s head to have been intact he said, and hold onto your hats for this cracker: “What the explanation for this is, I just don’t know, but what I believe happened is that the spray of brain matter and blood was like a bloodscreen, similar to a smokescreen, that precluded the view of the occipital area!”

                  Can you believe it? You can see the occipital area in the Zapruder film so nothing is being hidden. There was no massive wound. McClelland was provably mistaken but CT’s hang on desperately to him. McClelland believes that Kennedy was shot from the Grassy Knoll but when asked why 17 pathologists, including Cyril Wecht, said that Kennedy was hit by 2 shots both from the rear, he said:” I’m not a pathologist and I’ve never conducted an autopsy…..I don’t know the answer to your question.” He also made the claim that in the autopsy photograph someone deliberately closed up the wound flap. Then when asked why he’d written on a Parkland admission note at 4.45 pm that Kennedy had died:”from a gunshot wound to the left temple.” He weakly replied:” Yes, that was a mistake. I never saw any wound to the President’s left temple. Dr. Jenkins told me there was a wound there, though he later denied telling me this.” Conspiracy theorist Robert Groden, often quoted on the Forum, simply altered McClelland’s “left temple” to “right temple” in his book The Killing Of A President.

                  Then, when Bugliosi phoned McClelland again for a further conversation he said:” since we hung up last night, I’ve had some second thoughts about the exact location of the exit wound……I have to say that the sketch I first drew for Josiah Thompson’s book a few years after the assassination was misleading. [ The very same drawing that was used by George in post #491, which I assume he’ll now gloss over?] Since last night, I’ve been thinking that I placed the large hole in the President’s head farther back than it really was, maybe. It may have been a bit more forward.” When asked where he’d now place the wound he said:” Partially in the occipital region and partly in the right back part of the parietal bone.” This of course is entirely consistent with the Warren Report and the HSCA. But this non-pathologist still concludes that the large exit wound was not to the right frontal area as the 17 pathologists have proven that it was.

                  There are even examples of people claimed by conspiracy theorists to have supposedly seen a back of the head wound but when asked they’d said no such thing. One man called Stover said that he’d seen a wound on top of the head which conspiracy theorists claimed as the back of the head. It really does go on. There are more examples but I can’t be bothered.

                  I think that we can safely leave Dr. McClelland and those few understandably mistaken young Doctors to the conspiracy theorist to desperately hang onto (misleading diagrams and all) whilst the sensible listen to the 17 pathologists who’s verdicts cannot be disputed.



                  Inescapable Conclusion.


                  Three honourable, decent pathologists undertook the autopsy of the President under trying circumstances. They made mistakes but they were not dishonest. The Oliver Stone myth about shady a shady general running the autopsy is clearly exposed as just that. A pathetic myth. The pathologists conclusions added to the categorically genuine photographs and x-rays should have been enough for any reasonable, sensible, non-paranoid person but it clearly wasn’t for some who sought to and still seek to dishonestly magnify trivialities and errors. So there were 4 inquiries held over the years. The unfairly and unreasonably maligned Warren Commission (who certainly made errors but were not corrupt - the suggestion is a ludicrous and baseless slur.) Then there was The Clark Panel, The Rockerfeller Commission and the HSCA. So total, 17 honest, experienced and knowledgeable pathologists (including conspiracist favourite Cyril Wecht) examined the body at the autopsy, the President’s clothing, the autopsy x-rays and the autopsy photographs and what was the result?



                  They concluded absolutely unanimously and with not a shred of doubt that Kennedy was hit by two bullets and both were fired from the upper right rear.

                  ''ll first apologise for the length of this post but it’s a complex subject that has been manipulated by conspiracy theorist over the years to the point where complete fantasy and blatant manipulation have been accepted as ‘fact.


                  Should read ''Manipulated by the Warren Commission Novel over the years to the point where complete fantasy and blatant manipulation have been accepted as ‘fact.

                  You see Herlock, what you fail to understand is all the Evidence thats been produced on this topic by George and myself and others has shown to prove and contradict the Warren Commissiond findings on pretty much most the above. You wasted so much time for nothing, because imo you ignore and are quite possibly blinded by an obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of what was actually happening in the political area during that time .

                  Thats why you,ve accepted the official findings, because its easy when you have no reason to doubt it . Youll probably say ''how would you know what my knowledge and understanding is fishy ? to which i can only answer, i cant see any other logical reason why you believe the official version by the .w.c [ yes i think i know what your response will be so post it anyway] .

                  And that is Exactly why it was easy for the world to swallow the garbage report by the WC because the majority of the mass population had no idea what was going on in the world, or just couldnt be bothered to learn .


                  ''They concluded absolutely unanimously and with not a shred of doubt that Kennedy was hit by two bullets and both were fired from the upper right rear.''

                  Only in a world when it is made to look like that . Which is what happened the second the secret service took kennedys body from Dallas , A bit above your pay grade as to what happen after that .


                  '' When it doesnt agree with experiment its wrong'' . Insert ''magic bullet here .

                  So go on then, rant on '' why would they do this and that , and dont forget about the curtain rods AND best of all tell us again how much of an idiot Audrey Bell was , i love that bit , and Gov , Connally, LBJ , W.C members who called bull..... on the magic bullet.


                  Last edited by FISHY1118; 02-26-2023, 12:54 AM.
                  'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                    Just a few witnesses.
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                    'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                      You see Herlock, what you fail to understand is all the Evidence thats been produced on this topic by George and myself and others has shown to prove and contradict the warren commissiond findings on pretty much most the above. You wasted so much time for nothing, because imo you ignore and are quite possibly blinded by an obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of what was actually happening in the political area during that time . thats why youve accepted the offial findings because its easy when you have no reason to doubt it .

                      And that is Exactly why it was easy for the world to swallow the garbage report by the WC because the majority of the mass population had no idea what was goin on in the world or just couldnt be bothered to learn .
                      Now then Fishy, be nice. The ventriloquist Bugliosi has just acquired another.........what is it....I'll remember soon......oh yes.....vent figure.

                      Cheers, George
                      They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                      Out of a misty dream
                      Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                      Within a dream.
                      Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                      Comment


                      • I ploughed through HS's article but it starts to verge on semantics for me as a non medical person. I have no more knowledge of ballistics either.

                        But my visual interpretation of the Zapruder film is of a shot hitting Kennedy from behind in his back. It's interesting that Mrs Newman who was close to that shot thought the noise was from a firecracker and as she put it (on the day of the assassination) when Kennedy started upright in his seat she thought he was 'going along with the gag.' That form of words speaks to the warm atmosphere of the day and her innocence. She thought it was all part of the motor parade and Kennedy joining in the fun pretending to have been shot.

                        The lethal shot was described by her husband as like JFK being hit by a baseball bat. It knocked JFK back across his seat such was the power and I cannot see how that power could have been generated from a Carcano rifle over 80 yards to the rear.

                        The magic bullet cut cleanly through Kennedy and Connally we are told. But the shot to the head exploded inside the cranium of JFK. It must have been a dum dum bullet surely, completely different to the earlier shots? Some witnesses have described a different sound.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                          The magic bullet cut cleanly through Kennedy and Connally we are told. But the shot to the head exploded inside the cranium of JFK. It must have been a dum dum bullet surely, completely different to the earlier shots? Some witnesses have described a different sound.
                          Hi cobalt,

                          You have stated the fact which over rides all the verbosity and pseudo knowledge. I have 50 years of ballistics knowledge and have hand loaded tens of thousands of cartridges for rifles, shotguns and hand guns, so I can say, with all due modesty, that I know far more on the subject than Bugliosi or his....vent figure.

                          The Carcano is a military rifle and uses full metal jacketed projectiles designed to pass through flesh. On contact with bone the nose crushes and deforms, but it does not explode. One of the preferred rounds for an assassin is a sub sonic hollow point or mercury fulminate projectile. They are designed to be below the speed of sound (1100 feet per second) and so don't create the sonic crack of a rifle round. They also lend themselves to the use of a silencer. The difference in sound to an observer will be like the difference between a rifle and a 38 revolver, which is the description given by witnesses. After contact with a skull the projectile fragments and takes with it, in the direction of motion, soft (brain) tissue and skull fragment. This all happens in a small fraction of a second before the nervous system can react to defy Newton's laws of momentum. This is why there were brain fragments and bone fragments on the left side of the follow vehicle, and the two motorcycles escorts on the left side, and on the grass on the left side, but none on the right side. This is all physics, not speculations and "why woulds".

                          The proponents of the magic bullet would have us believe that it hit two rib bones and a wrist bone without the slightest flattening of the nose, but when an identical projectile hit JFK in the head it suddenly became an explosive round. Shouting, stamping the feet and waving the arms are the usual accompaniments of an apocryphal argument.

                          Cheers, George
                          They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                          Out of a misty dream
                          Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                          Within a dream.
                          Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                          Comment


                          • I have just read a brief synopsis on Bugliosi and I have to agree with his condemnation of the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in the Bush v. Gore case that decided the 2000 presidential election.

                            I also agree with his contention that George W. Bush should have been charged with the murders of the thousands of American soldiers who died in the Invasion of Iraq, because of his belief that Bush launched the invasion under false pretences. I would include Blair and Howard in that condemnation.

                            On the RFK assassination he said: "We are talking about a conspiracy to commit murder ... a conspiracy the prodigious dimensions of which would make Watergate look like a one-roach marijuana case.".

                            ​My comment on his assessment of the JFK assassination is...he was mistaken.

                            Cheers, George
                            They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                            Out of a misty dream
                            Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                            Within a dream.
                            Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                              Hi cobalt,

                              You have stated the fact which over rides all the verbosity and pseudo knowledge. I have 50 years of ballistics knowledge and have hand loaded tens of thousands of cartridges for rifles, shotguns and hand guns, so I can say, with all due modesty, that I know far more on the subject than Bugliosi or his....vent figure.

                              The Carcano is a military rifle and uses full metal jacketed projectiles designed to pass through flesh. On contact with bone the nose crushes and deforms, but it does not explode. One of the preferred rounds for an assassin is a sub sonic hollow point or mercury fulminate projectile. They are designed to be below the speed of sound (1100 feet per second) and so don't create the sonic crack of a rifle round. They also lend themselves to the use of a silencer. The difference in sound to an observer will be like the difference between a rifle and a 38 revolver, which is the description given by witnesses. After contact with a skull the projectile fragments and takes with it, in the direction of motion, soft (brain) tissue and skull fragment. This all happens in a small fraction of a second before the nervous system can react to defy Newton's laws of momentum. This is why there were brain fragments and bone fragments on the left side of the follow vehicle, and the two motorcycles escorts on the left side, and on the grass on the left side, but none on the right side. This is all physics, not speculations and "why woulds".

                              The proponents of the magic bullet would have us believe that it hit two rib bones and a wrist bone without the slightest flattening of the nose, but when an identical projectile hit JFK in the head it suddenly became an explosive round. Shouting, stamping the feet and waving the arms are the usual accompaniments of an apocryphal argument.

                              Cheers, George
                              Another fascinating fact George, it was always a stumblig block that couldnt be ignored as to the Cancarno full metal jacket v hollow point bullet effect ,glad you bought it up .

                              When people dont know or understand what their looking at, they tend to believe what ever there told and shown ,its a typical ploy and unfortunate all to familier trait of the JFK Apoligist way of thinking .

                              Yes i know i cheerleading again , but why not , theres a lot to cheer about
                              'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                              Comment


                              • Click image for larger version  Name:	Newman-1.jpg Views:	0 Size:	82.8 KB ID:	804777 W.E. Newman Jnr, the man closest to JFK when the head shot was made (about 12 feet), showing where the bullet hit the President. He said it came from the grassy knoll. But why listen to him. We'll just take the testimony of people who weren't even there.

                                Cheers, George
                                Last edited by GBinOz; 02-26-2023, 04:44 AM.
                                They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                                Out of a misty dream
                                Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                                Within a dream.
                                Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                                Comment

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