Packer and Schwartz

[Wickerman]

I scoured them last night but dont know all names you have Jon.

Jon.....Yes you can search by date so I will check. I could list them but would have to cut it down a bit. I will count them between 20-30 years old (also the two mentioned) and list as soon as I can, depending on the amount.

I'm sorry Pat, didn't mean to put you to a great deal of trouble. I wasn't expecting too many in 11 days, but it's only the surnames that we might be interested in as a starter.
If any names ring any bells for someone they might alert you for more details.

Is this list available on-line?

[S.Brett]

Karsten so sorry, getting my Kaminskys and Cohens mixed.
You are quite right it was David not Nathan.

I once found a Nathan Karninsky/i in the workhouse registers on ancestry,
who was transferred to or from Bethlem Asylum. This looked very like Kaminsky (rn and m look very similar) Might be worth a look?

Pat..........

If we can find out more about him than Martin Fido... but I use his notes:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=12948

Ah, it is Nathan Karninsky, not Karnsky:

Nathan Karnsky.
Born 1872. Admitted Colney Hatch
21 Dec 1899. Died there 9 July 1908
(in Bethnal Green book)

(My German fellow countryman Frank Forster had "translated" Martin Fido´s notes)

[Paddy]

Karsten so sorry, getting my Kaminskys and Cohens mixed.
You are quite right it was David not Nathan.

I once found a Nathan Karninsky/i in the workhouse registers on ancestry,
who was transferred to or from Bethlem Asylum. This looked very like Kaminsky (rn and m look very similar) Might be worth a look?

Pat..........

[S.Brett]

Karsten... this Nathan Cohen admitted in December and was sent to Colney Hatch (Insane I seem to remember) from there. He was brought in by police.

Thanks Pat,

I thought Martin Fido had found all of the Cohen, Kaminsky and Kosminski in Colney Hatch at that time.

I do not remember Nathan Cohen. To me it is new.

There was one Cohen, Martin Fido´s suspect:

David Cohen, act 23, from 86 Leman Street, Relatives unknown,
Adm. Dec. 21 88 sent to Colney Hatch Died Oct 20 89

Karsten.

[Paddy]

Jon, Karsten

I scoured them last night but dont know all names you have Jon.

Jon.....Yes you can search by date so I will check. I could list them but would have to cut it down a bit. I will count them between 20-30 years old (also the two mentioned) and list as soon as I can, depending on the amount.

Karsten... this Nathan Cohen admitted in December and was sent to Colney Hatch (Insane I seem to remember) from there. He was brought in by police.

Pat...........

[S.Brett]

Hi Pat.

Oswald Puckridge (alt. Puckeridge), born: 1838.
John William Smith Sanders (alt. Saunders), born: 1862.

Are you able to list all admissions between Oct. 1st and 11th?
Perhaps there is a name someone might recognize?

Good idea!

[S.Brett]

Hi Pat,

I did find Nathan Cohens admission and discharge, but that was to late to be this suspect.

Is it the same Nathan Cohen I posted yesterday?

NATHAN COHEN (born Russia, Poland), a Tailor, 164 Wentworth Street in 1891 (Census) but his shop is 126 Wentworth Street (Post Office Directory).

Probably not...

If It was Kozminski that went in to infirmary (location ?) and the police found the asylum, an id would not have been allowed. I seem to remember it was refused by doctors when Isenschmidt was an patient?

Pat........

I quite believe it. But after he was back at his shop Schwartz and Lawende, accompanied by policemen (we frequently stopped across in the role of customers- Cox), could have seen him, a kind of ID. I do not know how an ID took place.

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Well if anybody can give me some names and age I can check them?
I will check the Saunders entry.
I did find Nathan Cohens admission and discharge, but that was to late to be this suspect.

Pat........

Hi Pat.

Oswald Puckridge (alt. Puckeridge), born: 1838.
John William Smith Sanders (alt. Saunders), born: 1862.

Are you able to list all admissions between Oct. 1st and 11th?
Perhaps there is a name someone might recognize?

[Paddy]

If It was Kozminski that went in to infirmary (location ?) and the police found the asylum, an id would not have been allowed. I seem to remember it was refused by doctors when Isenschmidt was an patient?

Pat........

[Paddy]

The East End Infirmary article may refer to Puckridge, Saunders (the 3rd medical student?), or someone entirely unknown to us.

Well if anybody can give me some names and age I can check them?
I will check the Saunders entry.
I did find Nathan Cohens admission and discharge, but that was to late to be this suspect.

Pat........

[S.Brett]

The East End Infirmary article may refer to Puckridge, Saunders (the 3rd medical student?), or someone entirely unknown to us.

Of course, Jon!

[S.Brett]

Ah, ok, so you think the man who returned for the shirts was not the man who left them there?
I just assumed this is what was meant by The Batty-street Suspect.

The man who left the shirts and returned, I guess, is one and the same. Of course he was a suspect until he was questioned and his statement being proved correct.

Imagine that the Batty Street "Suspect" (on 13 October) was Woolf Abrahams, the brother of "Kosminski", then the police had proof that this suspect "Kosminski" (found on 1 October by a PC near Mitre Square) wore bloody clothing around the Double Event.

1 October:

Upon him were found 1s 4˝d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman... No blood was found upon his clothes...

No blood was found upon his clothes (1 October)

18 October

With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago

It could mean that the police (or rather Mr. Kuer) found bloody clothing on 2-4 October (not on 1 October) belonging to "Kosminski".

What a surprise for the police, if "Kosminski" was a suspect right after the Double Event, when they had found out the bloody shirts in Batty Street were left by "Kosminski"´s brother.

[Wickerman]

The East End Infirmary article may refer to Puckridge, Saunders (the 3rd medical student?), or someone entirely unknown to us.

[Wickerman]

Sorry Jon, I had a chat with a friend (Benjamin/Ben- Whatsapp) while writing...



The suspect was in an infirmary since the murder until (about) 18 October and on the loose 26 October...

It was not the suspect who returned to Batty Street on Saturday 13 October. Maybe it was one of his brothers (Woolf/Isaac) or his brother-in-law Morris Lubnowski. Mrs. Kuer spoke about a Tailor. Woolf or Isaac (Tailors) are more likely than Morris (Bootlaster).

Pure speculation...

Ah, ok, so you think the man who returned for the shirts was not the man who left them there?
I just assumed this is what was meant by The Batty-street Suspect.

[S.Brett]

Hi Kirsten.
There aren't many who would confuse me with Ben.

Sorry Jon, I had a chat with a friend (Benjamin/Ben- Whatsapp) while writing...

Nevertheless, the reason I doubt it is, we read in the Daily News, 18th Oct.
"...This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station"
Last Saturday would be the 13th.

The suspect was in an infirmary since the murder until (about) 18 October and on the loose 26 October...

It was not the suspect who returned to Batty Street on Saturday 13 October. Maybe it was one of his brothers (Woolf/Isaac) or his brother-in-law Morris Lubnowski. Mrs. Kuer spoke about a Tailor. Woolf or Isaac (Tailors) are more likely than Morris (Bootlaster).

Pure speculation...

Karsten.