Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Karsten

I started my route at the Frying pan pub..behind which ran Thrawl Street

If you turn and look back down Brick lane you can see the junction where Emma Smith was attacked.

Our route will take us left into Wentworth Street. The numbers today only reach about 88 at this point and go down to number one, once past Goulston Street

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Very interesting Stuff Karsten

Camberwell is certainly one of the main three asylums I have looked at in Surrey, with Bethel and Holloway and would certain make more sense doesn't Golda live in Wansworth?

While on my travels to Leaman street yesterday I cam across a Lutherian Church next door to an English and German language building thought they might interest you

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Pat,Hi Jeff,

I found out that in Mile End Road were two Jewish homes:

Portuguese and Spanish Jew´s hospital between 251-255 Mile End Road.
Jewish Home (Samuel Shuter, supt.), 37-39 Stepney Green Mile End Road.

I found a Samuel Shutter, born Poland (Samuel Shuter, supt.)/ “master of the Home for Aged Jews (1881, 1891)”/ “late master of the Home for Aged Jews”

“On 1881 English census at 37 & 39 Stepney Green, Mile End Old Town, London:
Samuel Shuter Head M 65 Master of the Jewish Home German”

“On 1891 English census at 37 & 39 Stepney Green, Mile End Old Town, London (RG12/307/ED 17/f 154/ 47):
Samuel Shuter Head M 65 Master of the Jewish Home Germany”

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jbkeene/KeenePhillips/PS03/PS03_216.HTML

He had a brother, Isaac Shuter (born Poland):

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jbkeene/KeenePhillips/PS02/PS02_198.HTML

Interestingly, his brother Isaac Shuter (died 1883) lived in Camberwell/ Surrey. Camberwell Road, Camberwell was not far (“around the corner”) from the Camberwell House Asylum/ Surrey in Peckham Road/ Havil Street.

You great uncle DC Cox said:

“was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey” (Sagar: private asylum)

Camberwell House Asylum/ Surrey Peckham Road (Havil Street, Gordon Road and later Constance Road) :

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Camberwell/

http://wellcomelibrary.org/collections/digital-collections/mental-healthcare/camberwell-house/

http://www.geograph.org.uk/snippet/14043

“The Asylum was licensed to acommodate 70 male and 80 female paupers, and 12 male private patients, despite protests from the local inhibitatnts of Peckham Road that the Asylum and its grounds were too small for such a number, and that they were overlooked by the workhouse and two private houses.”

“By 1859 the Asylum contained 318 inmates - some 247 paupers and 71 private patients - who were kept occupied by work in the grounds (unusually for the times, both sexes were allowed to mix together in the garden). Each year a house by the seaside was hired for use as a holiday home.”

There was a Seaside Home!!!

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/camberwellhouse.html

Old Bailey, Samuel Shuter, another “connection” with Surrey (Wandsworth)

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18730303-237&div=t18730303-237&terms=Samuel|Shuter#highlight

At the moment I am on Ancestry searching for “the man”. Via Admission and Discharge records… Southwark, Camberwell, Havil Street Old and New Workhouses 1889-1890 but I am surprised there is no record before 17 März 1889!!!

Just another idea... perhaps there is a connection between the Jewish Home in Stepney Green and a private asylum in Camberwell/ Surrey...

I hope you can help me looking at these Camberwell records.

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

There is yet another possibility. He was Mac's suspect and came to police attention later than you think.

Cheers.
LC

Doesn't seem very probable. Mac clearly says he entered the asylum March 1889.

And this matches what Cox says, three months after the Kelly murder

Mac doesn't even know what happened to Kozminski after that (I believe still is)

So all Mac does is write a Home Office memo 1894... He goes into the store cupboard pulls out some files the largest being Kozminski upto March 1889

He always prefers his private info and sticks with it working from memory and making a few errors

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Karsten,



I have always thought that this identification was a person who would not swear to it before at a previous id when Suspect was ill and also Jewish and the witness did not want it to be left on his mind if the suspect was hung (maybe not 100% sure). Once suspect was finally comitted in the Asylum the man then may have said yes I think it was him??

I think its possible that an unsuccessful id was done around October 1888 when suspect was in a rest home of some sort
If this suspect was Jack he would have to be out by November (Mary Kelly)
Henry Cox said they got on the trail after last murder (which I assume meant Mary Kelly) Perhaps they found he had been released and wern't sure where he had moved to (Woolfs daughter was pulled out of school at end of October and at some point pretty soon they moved to Yalford Street)

I am interested in this man that was found with the mauve scarf I shall have a look at that.

Hope this makes sense?
Pat......

Good Morning Pat!

I guess that a new witness was found in 1890/91 and I think he had seen "Kosminski" in Miller´s Court on the morning of the 9 November 1888.

The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 2 October, 1888:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881002.html

"a man was, later in the day, brought to the Leman-street Police-station by a constable who found him prowling about not far from Mitre-street. His face was haggard, and he seemed unable to give any account of himself. Upon him were found 1s 4½d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman." (1 October 1888)

Lawende:

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak" (2 October 1888/ Times)

"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." (19 October 1888/ Swanson)

PC near Mitre Square?

"by a constable who found him prowling about not far from Mitre-street"

Sims:

“The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack the Ripper in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.”

Macnaughten:

“This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square”.

Karsten.

[lynn cates]

Master the possibilities.

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

There is yet another possibility. He was Mac's suspect and came to police attention later than you think.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Now there are green lines in Goulston Street, Old Castle Street/Castle Alley & pink and blue lines between Goulston Street & Old Castle Street!

Ok..lots of interesting photos... A little off topic for Schwartz however the next set of photos should bring us back to subject..

I have an idea of filming Shwartz walk from commercial road to Dutfield and browns walk home

But coming it's Wentworth street...give me some time

Jef

[Paddy]

Karsten,

Anderson:
I will only add that when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum, the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer at once identified him

I have always thought that this identification was a person who would not swear to it before at a previous id when Suspect was ill and also Jewish and the witness did not want it to be left on his mind if the suspect was hung (maybe not 100% sure). Once suspect was finally comitted in the Asylum the man then may have said yes I think it was him??

I think its possible that an unsuccessful id was done around October 1888 when suspect was in a rest home of some sort
If this suspect was Jack he would have to be out by November (Mary Kelly)
Henry Cox said they got on the trail after last murder (which I assume meant Mary Kelly) Perhaps they found he had been released and wern't sure where he had moved to (Woolfs daughter was pulled out of school at end of October and at some point pretty soon they moved to Yalford Street)

I am interested in this man that was found with the mauve scarf I shall have a look at that.

Hope this makes sense?
Pat......

[S.Brett]

HI Karsten, In one newspaper it said "The East End Infirmary" but in another it said "An East End Infirmary"
I personally think that if it was a Aaron he would have been somewhere like the Jewish Hospital. His family seemed to be finacially comfortable with connections. I can imagine they wouldn't want him in the Workhouse Infirmary especially with the police on his tail. I would then guess he was sent away for a rest possibly a Jewish rest home. I did wonder about Norwood as I believe Pizer was there at one time, not sure if it took adults in 1888 though.
I dont think an ID would be allowed till he came out.
Or when he came out of infirmary and was going away for a rest the police were waiting and took him? I think the with difficulty would be the family understandably not liking this at all. If both witnesses went I suspect one wouldnt id him and the other couldnt. If Schwartz was one of them, it would explain how he knew suspect was Jewish and unwell, he id'd him in a Jewish rest home.....
Just a theory though !

Pat.........

Hello Pat,

I agree... but:

"I dont think an ID would be allowed till he came out."

Anderson:

I will only add that when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum, the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer at once identified him

Swanson:

after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified

It seems to me that it has been possible to take "Kosminski" from an asylum in 1890/91 so why not in October 1888?

If "Kosminski" was the man with the "haggard face" and a "woollen scarf of violet colour" (reddish handkerchief-Lawende) on 1 October found by a constable not far from Mitre Square and the same man on 11-13 October 1888 ("ID" with Schwartz & Lawende), then Schwartz did not see "Kosminski" ("full face" vs. "haggard face") in Berner Street. He could not identify "Kosminski" because he did not see him. But Lawende saw him in Duke Street and his "brief look at him" was not enough to identify this suspect.

Karsten.

[Paddy]

HI Karsten, In one newspaper it said "The East End Infirmary" but in another it said "An East End Infirmary"
I personally think that if it was a Aaron he would have been somewhere like the Jewish Hospital. His family seemed to be finacially comfortable with connections. I can imagine they wouldn't want him in the Workhouse Infirmary especially with the police on his tail. I would then guess he was sent away for a rest possibly a Jewish rest home. I did wonder about Norwood as I believe Pizer was there at one time, not sure if it took adults in 1888 though.
I dont think an ID would be allowed till he came out.
Or when he came out of infirmary and was going away for a rest the police were waiting and took him? I think the with difficulty would be the family understandably not liking this at all. If both witnesses went I suspect one wouldnt id him and the other couldnt. If Schwartz was one of them, it would explain how he knew suspect was Jewish and unwell, he id'd him in a Jewish rest home.....
Just a theory though !

Pat.........

[S.Brett]

Yes I personally think this could be the case. When the news report said the blood came from someone else in 22 Batty street, I think they could have meant that the blood came from a person (not lodger) that lived in the same house as the one that they knew about already (in Infirmary?). This would mean a relative or friend who collected the shirts and was arrested and then let go when he said he had done it himself.


Suspect sent to infirmary before 6th (for what?) Friend or relative handing them to Mrs kuer, saying the person who they belonged to had gone away. (hence the "hes gone away" statement made by Mrs Kuer) Couple that with the fact that probably a lot of people realised there was a local chap that was not quite right sometimes, might raise Mrs Kuers' suspicions more. The police would have enquired into where the person the shirts belonged to had gone and maybe then discovered the infirmary suspect (whom others had talked to them about and who could have been admitted somewhere with mental distress and / or cuts
Some of the press records that came from others, could have very slight errors.
I find it a very plausable theory......

It also seems to point that the arrest was made on 6th or before
If the report in the Irish Times (16 October) is correct regarding the matter being satisfactorily accounted for over a week before, then it may point to an arrest on the weekend of October 6-7.

Mrs. Kuer´s lodger Carl Noun returned from Margate on 6 October. I think it is possible that on 13 October two men were arrested. First the man who left the shirts (after the Double Event) when he returned for collecting the shirts (released on the same day), and secondly a man who was released on Monday (15 October). The second man could have been the man in the "Infirmary". Maybe, an ID took place on this weekend with this suspect and with Schwartz and Lawende but it failed. The "Infirmary": Is it possible, Pat, that the Infirmary had been a Doctor´s practice with some "hospital beds" at the premises of this doctor and not in the kind of the Workhouse Infirmary or Mile End Old Town Workhouse?

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Now there are green lines in Goulston Street, Old Castle Street/Castle Alley & pink and blue lines between Goulston Street & Old Castle Street!

[S.Brett]

Cool I don't have time now, but we can make a start. If you could try and mark on a map your further areas of interest We'll up date as we go along..

I'm not going to commit to High Def until I know exactly what I'm shooting or we will end up with Thousands of GB's of unwanted material

I'm off Jx

Okay Jeff, Nic did it...

Dark blue spot: "Chazar Mark" (Cox´s Tailor and Capmakers who employed boys and girls under age)

Dark green spot: "Leman Street Shop"

Brown spot: "Escape Route" Church Lane (after Stride)

Yellow spot: "Escape Route" Stoney Lane (after Eddowes)

Warm greetings to Cat...

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten


Yes I personally think this could be the case. When the news report said the blood came from someone else in 22 Batty street, I think they could have meant that the blood came from a person (not lodger) that lived in the same house as the one that they knew about already (in Infirmary?). This would mean a relative or friend who collected the shirts and was arrested and then let go when he said he had done it himself.


Suspect sent to infirmary before 6th (for what?) Friend or relative handing them to Mrs kuer, saying the person who they belonged to had gone away. (hence the "hes gone away" statement made by Mrs Kuer) Couple that with the fact that probably a lot of people realised there was a local chap that was not quite right sometimes, might raise Mrs Kuers' suspicions more. The police would have enquired into where the person the shirts belonged to had gone and maybe then discovered the infirmary suspect (whom others had talked to them about and who could have been admitted somewhere with mental distress and / or cuts
Some of the press records that came from others, could have very slight errors.
I find it a very plausable theory......

Infirmary records?
Police records?
So how to prove it Karsten ??
Pat.............

Hello Pat,

Thanks.

I will answer you later in day. Too busy at the moment.

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Great, Jeff... good morning...

Please mark the Goulston Street & Old Castle Street/Castle Alley (green) and between them "Cox" (blue) and the shop (pink). Maybe, it makes sense to mark the "chazar mark" on Goulston Street (but I do not exactly know where it was) and the "Leman Street Shop" (somewhere on this street).

I am not sure but many many years later there were butchers between Goulston Street and Old Castle Street in Wentworth Street named Cohen, Friends and Frankel. In Black Lion Yard (1891) there was a Frankel from Klodawa. After 1900, I think, there was a Frankel in 58 Butchers Row (in 1888 the butcher was Bullas) opposite this shop Sagar was watching in December 1890.

Yours Karsten.

Cool I don't have time now, but we can make a start. If you could try and mark on a map your further areas of interest We'll up date as we go along..

I'm not going to commit to High Def until I know exactly what I'm shooting or we will end up with Thousands of GB's of unwanted material

I'm off Jx