Packer and Schwartz

[Abby Normal]

Kozminski was the suspect

Surely you mean who was the witness?

What we know about the witness

He was a fellow Jew

He refused to testify when he learned the suspect was a fellow jew

He was the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer

Specualtion: He was connected to the last murder Kelly...because know other murders of this kind took place after the Suspect...knew he was identified

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff
yes of course, but what im trying to get at as with my exchange with Wicker, is if neither Schwartz or Lawende is the witness then the men they saw-BS man and sailor man-cant be the suspect.

so an unknown witness sees something and someone, presumably with one of the victims the night of the double event (or was it earlier-with an earlier victim?). If its not sailor man or BS man who is it? when did the unknown witness see the suspect? where did he see the suspect? what was taking place when the witness saw the suspect?

[Jeff Leahy]

I know it sounds weird...

Hi Karsten

I think you'd have to prove a president that the New Scotland Yard' was ever jokingly called the Seaside Home

Besides Anderson says the ID took place in an Asylum so a convalescent Seaside home attached to the Surrey asylum makes more sense

And it seems in probable that the crawford letter incident happened before August 1889...Anderson at this time was still claiming they'd failed to bring proof against a suspect

Yours Jeff

PS you need to be careful with Crawford..its a title not the mans name, his real name was: James Ludovic Lindsay. These were pretty high ranking aristocrats... But both his sons did work in the east end doing charity. A number of the Rothchilde woman also did charity work here. Theres a good chance they were receiving money from the rothchildes who were jewish but not astkenazim...any info on who funded the infirmary would be useful

[Abby Normal]

Ah, the true answer to that question will not depend on what we know about the case, but rather, what Anderson/Swanson knew about the case.

Hi wicker
well kosminsky is who they thought did it. but if neither Lawendes or Schwartz was the witness then neither is their suspect-salor man or BS man is the suspect.

so not only do we need to come up with another witness-we have to come up with another suspect that witness saw, no?

who is the unknown witness then and who is the unknown suspect? And when and where did this unknown suspect see his suspect?

[S.Brett]

Specualtion: He was connected to the last murder Kelly...because know other murders of this kind took place after the Suspect...knew he was identified

I offer the following scenario:

"Kosminski" was a prime suspect in October 1888 after the Double Event and maybe he was admitted to an East End Infirmary with connections to a private asylum in Surrey (and again admitted end of November/beginning December 1888). In October 1888 Mrs. Long, Schwartz, PC Smith, Lawende and the PC near Mitre Square were confronted with "Kosminski". Only the Mitre Square PC said: This could be the man I saw!

Sims:

“The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack the Ripper in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.”

Macnaughten:

“This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square”.

"Kosminski" knew there was no witness who could identify him!

Swanson before the "Seaside Home" Identification took place:

"And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London"

After Kelly? Yes! The last murder: "Kosminski" was seen by a witness in Miller`s Court (on leaving the court) and he knew that this witness (had a good view of him) could identify him. This witness would not fail like Schwartz, Lawende & Co.

Anderson:

and the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews....(End of 1888)...

The problem: The police did not find this important witness before the second half of 1890. He was probably unaware of the importance of his sighting.

Swanson about the "Seaside Home" Identification:

"after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified"

he knew he was identified

Yes, the police had found the witness with the "good view of the murderer".

Anderson:

and the result proved that our diagnosis was right on every point

Swanson about the pressmann:

known to the heads of SY

The same with the Seaside Home ID? Known to the heads of Scotland Yard? And I would not be surprised if the "Seaside Home" ID took place at the New Scotland Yard Building of 1890, located at the bank of the Thames.

I know it sounds weird...

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten

Not ignoring this important post but still trying to sock it all in..

Just a quick observation...

Not only would a Jewish infirmary with a link to surrey be of interest but it must also have run on charitable status....

Its here that you might find your link to Crawford

Montigue was heavily involved in charitable work

However more interesting is that older jewish charities are more likely to have a connection to the Rothchilde family and the Rothchildes and Crawfords moved in the same social circles

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I know very little about Crawford/Montagu & Co but I found this:

"Crawford"/Surrey;

"The Pauper Lunatic Asylum at Cane Hill, Coulsdon, 2 miles south of Purley station, was opened in January, 1884: the buildings, which adjoin the Brighton main road... Rev. John Charles Crawford M.A. chaplain;..."

I think this Charles Crawford had nothing to do with the Earl of Crawford...

The Crawford letter, Jeff, I guess it was already written in October 1888.

Daily News
United Kingdom
18 October 1888

"he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused"

Aftonbladet (Sweden)

October 26th, 1888

"He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with..."

The Bristol Mercury (Bristol)
29 December 1888

"The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping..."

he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace

It is possible (and pure speculation) that this woman was Matilda Lubnowski (sister) or Golda Abrahams (mother). A family in great fear in October (November/December) 1888 when the brother was suspected of being Jack the Ripper (and not 1890).

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

That is: Finding Aaron Kozminski in an East End Infirmary and in a (private) asylum in Surrey.

What we have: Aaron Kozminski in Mile End Old Town Workhouse (July 1890 and February 1891) and in Colney Hatch & Leavesden.

It seems that the Jewish Home in Stepney Green was a Jewish Workhouse and later it belonged to the Nightingale in Surrey. Later again we find the Jewish Hospital in Stepney Green.

And I could find another Asylum in Surrey with a Seaside Home (Royal Hospital for Neuro-Disability).

Nightingale:

“The charity’s origins can be traced back to 1840. The three original homes were called the Hand in Hand Asylum, the Widows’ Home Asylum and the Jewish Workhouse, also known as the Jewish Home. They were established in the old Jewish quarter in London’s East End to cater for the needs of poor Jewish people”

http://www.nightingalehammerson.org/about-us/the-history-of-nightingale-hammerson.html

“The Hand in Hand Home occupied the following premises: 5 Duke's Place (from 1843), 22 Jewry Street (from 1850), Wellclose Square (from 1854) and 23 Well Street, Hackney (from 1878). The Widow's Home was first based at 22 Mitre Street, then 19 Duke Street (from 1850), 67 Great Prescott Street, Goodmans Fields (from 1857) and later moved next door to the Hand in Hand in 1880.
The Jewish Workhouse was founded in 1871 by a movement led by Solomon Green, the son of Abraham Green one of the founders of the Widow's Home. The first premises were at 123 Wentworth Street. In 1876 the Home moved to 37-9 Stepney Green.”

http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=14761&inst_id=118

Surrey:

Nightingale
105 Nightingale Lane, Wandsworth Common, SW12 8NB/ Surrey

“…and the Jewish Workhouse, also known as the Jewish Home (1871), at 37-39 Stepney Green.”

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/nightingale.html

Royal Hospital for Neuro-Disability
West Hill, Putney, SW15 3SW/ Surrey

“In 1885 a holiday home - Seaside House - was established for the inmates (and later pensioners) in St Leonard's-on-Sea. (The house was sold in 1901.)” (106 Queen Victoria Street?)

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wandsworth/

http://www.rhn.org.uk/about-us/history/

“In 1947 the Hospital was informed that it would be nationalised under the NHS Act (1946), along with the Jewish Hospital and Home for Incurables in Tottenham and the British Home and Hospital for Incurables in Streatham. All three homes appealed against this on the grounds that they would be able to provide more specific care to their patients, focussed on long-term needs. In 1950 the Ministry of Health withdrew its claim.”

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/royalhospitalhome.html

London/East End:

Jewish Home and Hospital for Incurables
295 High Road, South Tottenham, N15 4RT

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/jewishhospitalandhome.html

http://pmj.bmj.com/content/80/945/426.full

London Jewish Hospital
Stepney Green, Tower Hamlets, E1 3LB

http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/londonjewish.html

In Mile End Road were two Jewish homes (1891):

Portuguese and Spanish Jew´s hospital between 251-255 Mile End Road.
Jewish Home (Samuel Shuter, supt.), 37-39 Stepney Green Mile End Road.

See my post 877:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=360458#post360458

I am not sure whether the "Seaside Home" belonged to an asylum or to the police or whether it was located at the coast. Maybe, it was plain and simple a police´s barrack in London called "Seaside Home", who knows...

But I am sure that the Police already known "Kosminski" in October 1888. In this case, I do not think that they were waiting with Lawende & Schwartz for an ID until the second half of 1890/ Beginning 1891.

"Oh no! ... I only had a short look at him" (Major Smith/probably Lawende) and "Would you know him again? - I doubt it. The man and woman were about nine or ten feet away from me."...

...does not sound like "A good view of the murderer"...

I guess that Schwartz and Lawende were confronted with "Kosminski" in October 1888 but failed.

A third witness found by the police in the second half of 1890? Why not? If "Kosminski" was a Prime Suspect since October 1888 then the police did not have the Seaside Home witness at the time of the murders. When they had found the witness the MET police informed the City Police to bring "Kosminski" to the place "Seaside Home". I guess, all the time "Kosminski" was more a City Police suspect than a MET Police suspect.

Yours Karsten.

Hi Karsten

Not ignoring this important post but still trying to sock it all in..

Just a quick observation...

Not only would a Jewish infirmary with a link to surrey be of interest but it must also have run on charitable status....

Its here that you might find your link to Crawford

Montigue was heavily involved in charitable work

However more interesting is that older jewish charities are more likely to have a connection to the Rothchilde family and the Rothchildes and Crawfords moved in the same social circles

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

But we don't know this was Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

Its reasonable speculation given what Cox says

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Such as Mac bringing Kosminski to light only to have Sir Robert jump at the theory?

Cheers.
LC

But we know Anderson starts his theory in 1892 'A maniac revealing in blood'

Macnaughten knows little about Kozminski, only the office rumours until he writes his memo and discovers the March 1889 file. Almost two years later 1894 when the Sun suggests Cutbush

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Actually, I was asking why Mac was not privy to the "ID."

Cheers.
LC

Because Anderson received the letter of introduction from Crawford not Manaughten...

So Macnaughten doesn't know about that meeting...

Anderson and Monroe decide on a course of action which is kept quiet because its a 'Hot Potatoe'

The ID is never updated into the March 1889 file but kept as a separate report, the only other person who might have known something as the City police kept surveillance is SMITH

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Then who is the suspect?

Kozminski was the suspect

Surely you mean who was the witness?

What we know about the witness

He was a fellow Jew

He refused to testify when he learned the suspect was a fellow jew

He was the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer

Specualtion: He was connected to the last murder Kelly...because know other murders of this kind took place after the Suspect...knew he was identified

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes, Polish at best... I was born and grew up near the Polish border (former GDR/federal province "Brandenburg")... I am a half Polish... when I look at the photographs of the "Kozminski" family they look like the people of my home region... when I look at the photographs of Matilda & Morris Lubnowski they could be member of my family and we are not Jewish... Matilda & Morris Lubnowski and me (and my family) it is more a mix between German/Polish... I can imagine, when Morris Lubnowski walked the streets of the East End, that people thought "Is he German or Polish?" In each case he might be Jewish... but "Foreigner" could mean German/Polish (Aaron Kozminski spoke German and Lipski is a common name in Germany&Poland).

And it is clear, for the Seaside Home witness (Jewish himself) with "a good view of the murderer" "Kosminski" did not look Jewish... "but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him" (Anderson)

For example Lawende, born in Warzaw/Poland. To me he looks like a German. And Major Smith (City Police) said "a sort of hybrid German", probably he meant Lawende.

Karsten.

Morning Karsten

Sorry I posted before reading your post but yes I'm in total agreement..

I have a friend called Joe who is Jewish also, half Irish and half Sicilian..

Hes a bit of an expert on Jewish tribes and culture, the various movements of the tribes, some of which appear to be more African than eruopian

Kozminski was Polish, I totally agree

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

It's just a small detail that gets overlooked. Neither BS-man nor the Lawende suspect were identified as, suspected to be, or described as Jewish. Whereas Kozminski could hardly be mistaken for being any thing else, but Jewish.
There's an inconsistency here Jeff.
.

Hi Jon

I think we should be careful here I have no intension of coursing any offence to our jewish members, but I don't think it reasonable to suggest that Jewish people have a specific appearance infact the exact opposite..

It might be reasonable to suggest that Orthodox jews have a specific dress style, but that is surely fashion rather than genetic and there is know evidence that the Kozminski family or Kalish community were orthodox, again the opposite, although they clearly practiced jewish religion.

Genetically the Kozminski's were Polish. The idea of the tribes of Abraham is largely a myth. People from the area of Poland we're talking about weren't Jewish they were all forced to convert some time in the 12th century.

So i think you have a red herring... appearance wise you couldn't tell whether Kozminski was polish and this is confirmed by the witness who only refused to give evidence when he learned the suspect was jewish after the ID.

So we know Kozminski in appearance didn't look, what people might assume, as being of jewish appearance

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Jon!

Hi Karsten.
What is missing today is the rigid class structure that the ordinary person was expected to reflect in his appearance a hundred years ago.
I dare say Poland in the late 19th century was no different to London, where a person was expected to reflect his true position and status in society in his attire and appearance, quite different to today where we follow what ever fashion we prefer.
The common citizen did not have the choices we have today.

Of course...

All I can say is; when I look at the photographs of Matilda & Morris I see ordinary people.

Who does not know them?

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Matilda-Rachel-Lubnowski-born-Kosminski/137044012-1000060%28DF%29

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Maurice-Lubnowski/137044012-1000059

If Aaron Kozminski was Jack the Ripper these people were his sister, brother in law and cousin. I have six sibelings. Three sisters + myself have black hairs, two sister + my brother have light brown hair. My only brother (the youngest of all) has curly hair. We sisters with the black hair look more like Polish, the other sisters more German.

Cox:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair..."

When I look at photographs of the Kozminski family I see some children with curly hair. But that is probably quite normal...

I am convinced that Lawende saw the Ripper but I do not think that he thought this man is Jewish. In the best case the man looked like a "Foreigner" (Mrs. Long). And the witness with the "good view of the murderer" saw, in the best case a foreigner, a man who did not look like a Jew.

I am not convinced that Schwartz saw the Ripper but, of course, it is possible. But I see too many men with "caps" at that time.

Just one of many examples (the first photograph):

http://www.mandy-janes.co.uk/ASSENHEIM/assenheims.htm

Karsten.

[lynn cates]

identity

Hello (yet again) Jeff.

"Do we know what Kozminski looked like in Nov - March 1888? Yes Cox gives a clear description"

But we don't know this was Kosminski.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"Swanson is very clear. He died shortly afterwards."

Agreed--clear as crystal.

"I have no doubt that is what he believed."

Nor yet I.

"The problem is we know Kozminski didn't die until 1919."

Yes. Huge problem.

"So there are a number of possibilities: 1. Anderson deliberately covered Kozminski up claiming he was dead...he was an old spy."

Indeed. But why cover THIS one up?

"2. Anderson was given incorrect information when Kozminski was transferred to Leavesden."

OK. By whom? And does this not make Sir Robert more spectator than investigator?

"3. There was a record mix-up at the asylum, the records after all are missing at Leavesden until 1910, which strangely is when Anderson released TLSOMOL"

Of course, such a mix up opens a nasty can of worms for the whole theory.

"4. Other"

Such as Mac bringing Kosminski to light only to have Sir Robert jump at the theory?

Cheers.
LC