Packer and Schwartz

[Wickerman]

Hi Kirsten.
There aren't many who would confuse me with Ben.

Nevertheless, the reason I doubt it is, we read in the Daily News, 18th Oct.
"...This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station"
Last Saturday would be the 13th.

Yet, the East End infirmary patient was in the infirmary prior to the 11th - when that particular story broke.

They can't be the same person, right?

[S.Brett]

Hello Ben!

Yes, I am suggesting the Batty Street suspect is the same as the East End Infirmary patient.

10 -13 October Infirmary

under close observation, kept under constant and close surveillance

18 October

the suspected assassin is "shadowed."

"shadowed"? Quotation marks, why? Maybe, he was not shadowed but (still) kept under constant and close surveillance (still detained)

26 October

is at present under close surveillance (He was on the loose)

13 October

Batty Street Story:

The man who left four shirts returned

"This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station, where he was questioned, and within an hour or two released, his statement being proved correct”

Imagine, the man, apparently a foreigner, was Morris Lubnowski, the police would have found that the four shirts belonged to the suspect´s ("Kosminski"?) family while the suspect was in an infirmary since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

These circumstances could have been the constable not far from Mitre Square who found a man with a woolen scarf of violet colour on 1 October ("PC near Mitre Square"?) and Lawende´s red neckerchief, reddish handkerchief (Perhaps these policemen knew about the violet scarf before they knew something about the reddish handkerchief).

"The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder" (Sims).

If the Constabler had recognized (by height and build) "Kosminski" as the man he had seen on the night of the murder and the bloody shirts also belonged to him then it was clear that this man is the "Prime Suspect". I can well imagine that Schwartz and Lawende were called for an identification but if both men failed the police had no proof against "Kosminski".

Surely, there was a chance for the police to catch him red-handed if the "Infirmary" would release the man. Maybe it happened and he was shadowed by the police after 18 October (for ten days?).

I think Rob House wrote that the man did not leave his house anymore after he was shadowed. There also were too many reporters and the police stopped the surveillance.

I would not rule out that the East End Infirmary was a private institution.

Perhaps the same happened in November/Dezember after Kelly or after the Brick Lane incident.

As Pat said we can´t find Kosminski or Cohen:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=24615%29

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Hi Karsten.

Are you suggesting the Batty-street suspect is the same as the East End Infirmary patient?

I wasn't quite sure if you were implying a parallel between the stories, because the way I read them, the former was on the loose during the second week of October while the latter was detained in the infirmary.

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello (again) Jeff. Good luck on your excursion.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

wishful thinking

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Because Swanson was the man in charge of the investigation from the out."

Yes, he liased and coordinated the investigation. But did he "poke around at the crime scenes?

"Anderson is clear to a reporter in August 1889 that they didn't know who the culprit was, their failure to bring a case."

Completely agree.

"However it seems probable that among the suspects at the time, 1888, an important one was Kozminski... but no proof could be found...perhaps there was a failed ID?"

Possibly. Also possible that he was entirely unknown to police.

"But surveillance was kept on a suspect and reports via City CID (Cox) were given to Swanson. And it's these reports MacNaughten discovers and uses in 1894 to write the memo."

No evidence for that. Why would he have to "discover" them? Should have been available to all coppers.

"Once you figure out that Anderson and MacNaughten are describing two completely different events."

Or two different people?

"MacNughten the events up to March 1889 and Anderson the events following the Crawford letter in 1890 almost two years later."

Once again, there is not a SINGLE SHRED of evidence that the Crawford letter is even REMOTELY concerned with Kosminski.

"Then it's Swanson who knows the whole story....and what all three say is true from their perspective."

Or what he has been told.

"Two different events...the same suspect."

More likely, the same wishful thinking.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

Good Morning Pat, Good Morning Jon!

Daily News
United Kingdom
18 October 1888

“From more than one source the police authorities have, it is said, received information tending to show that the East-end murderer is a foreigner who was known as having lived within a radius of a few hundred yards from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy. The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognizance. If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused. Her statements are, it is stated, now being inquired into. In the meantime the suspected assassin is "shadowed." Incriminating evidence of a certain character has already been obtained, and, should implicit credence be placed upon the story of the woman already referred to, whose name will not transpire under any circumstances until after his guilt is prima facie established, a confession of the crimes may, it is said, be looked for at any moment. The accused is himself aware, it is believed, of the suspicions entertained against him. With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago. A man, apparently a foreigner, visited the house of a German laundress, at 22, Batty-street, and left four shirts, tied in a bundle, to be washed. The bundle was not opened at the time, but when the shirts were afterwards taken out one was found considerably blood-stained. The woman communicated with the police, who placed the house under observation, detectives at the same time being lodged there to arrest the man should he return. This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station, where he was questioned, and within an hour or two released, his statement being proved correct”.

Aftonbladet (Sweden)

October 26th, 1888

“The murderer of Whitechapel has as yet managed to avoid detection. It is said that the prime suspect is now a foreigner who was living not far from Berner St when the murders took place. He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with and is at present under close surveillance”.

A private "Infirmary"?

The same again in December 1888?

The Bristol Mercury (Bristol)
29 December 1888

"The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping. As showing that there is a certain amount of credence attached to this story, detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted."

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Hi Karsten, I think the wording is interesting (who the man is I dont know)
They considered Eddowes husband too old compared to the suspect held.
Which man did they let go?
They had at that time a man under "close observation" who was in the Infirmary. (checked the Mile End Creed records cant find Koz or Cohen for that date range. His other two visits were recorded however)

They don't actually say if these are both the same man
I do wonder what the suspicious circumstances might be?

Pat......

There are apparently, in the BNA, sixteen newspapers which carried this report, in a variety of versions.

This is the most long winded version, yet it tells us nothing more. Other versions identify this story as originating on Thursday night, 11th.

A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance.
Hampshire Advertiser, Oct. 13, 1888.

Interesting.

[Paddy]

The police on examination found that the murdered woman's husband was a much older man than the individual now detained and without sending for Catherine Eddowes sister , they let the man go.
The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Hi Karsten, I think the wording is interesting (who the man is I dont know)
They considered Eddowes husband too old compared to the suspect held.
Which man did they let go?
They had at that time a man under "close observation" who was in the Infirmary. (checked the Mile End Creed records cant find Koz or Cohen for that date range. His other two visits were recorded however)

They don't actually say if these are both the same man
I do wonder what the suspicious circumstances might be?

Pat......

[S.Brett]

Btw.:

I had asked you about Harry Sagar, 116 Brick Lane, Watch Maker in 1891.

Now I found out that he was born in Russia/Poland.

To Caps and Hats:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Wentworth_Street (the image)

Caps & Hats of all kind...

[S.Brett]

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Fri 12th Oct 1888... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Any ideas who this chap was?

Hi Pat!

Not really...

The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 2 October, 1888:

"In addition to these a man was, later in the day, brought to the Leman-street Police-station by a constable who found him prowling about not far from Mitre-street. His face was haggard, and he seemed unable to give any account of himself. Upon him were found 1s 4½d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman. At the station he said, in reply to the inspector, that he had walked from Southampton, and belonged to the Royal Sussex Regiment. An examination of his boots was not confirmatory of his statement about his travels, and he was detained that inquiries might be made. No blood was found upon his clothes, nor any weapon likely to have inflicted the wounds. No importance is attached to this arrest, and the man has since been liberated. The only curious thing about this incident is that the mark of the Royal Sussex Regiment, to which he said he belonged, was upon the torn envelope found on the body of the Hanbury-street victim, Annie Chapman."

Connection with the Batty Street Story (Rob House) and with Lawende´s red neckerchief, reddish handkerchief (a woollen scarf of a violet colour)?

Just an idea...

Karsten.

[Paddy]

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Fri 12th Oct 1888

The police on examination found that the murdered woman's husband was a much older man than the individual now detained and without sending for Catherine Eddowes sister , they let the man go.
The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Any ideas who this chap was?

Pat........

[S.Brett]

Ok I've got that have printed out a map..

We're leaving now, we may be gone some time

Jeff and Catx

Best wishes...

[Jeff Leahy]

Ok I've got that have printed out a map..

We're leaving now, we may be gone some time

Jeff and Catx

[S.Brett]

Anything Particular you would like me to photograph?

Yes...

Cox:

"The Jews in the street soon became aware of our presence. It was impossible to hide ourselves. They became suddenly alarmed, panic stricken, and I can tell you that at nights we ran a considerable risk. We carried our lives in our hands so to speak, and at last we had to partly take the alarmed inhabitants into our confidence, and so throw them off the scent. We told them we were factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers who employed boys and girls under age, and pointing out the evils accruing from the sweaters' system asked them to co-operate with us in destroying it."

"They readily promised to do so, although we knew well that they had no intention of helping us. Every man was as bad as another."

"We had the use of a house opposite the shop of the man we suspected, and, disguised, of course, we frequently stopped across in the role of customers."

"he was a mad, poverty stricken inhabitant of some slum in the East End".

...factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers (from the sweaters´system) who employed boys and girls under age...asked them to co-operate with us in destroying it... They readily promised to do so, although we knew well that they had no intention of helping us...

Can it be that the "factory inspectors" asked Non- Tailor Jews to co-operate with them in "destroying" (sweaters´system) the business of Jewish Tailors (and capmakers) in this "certain street" who employed boys and girls under age? Greenfield Street had over thirty Tailors in 1888. Does it make sense?

"I can tell you that at nights we ran a considerable risk. We carried our lives in our hands so to speak" Is it Greenfield Street?

"I allowed him to get right out of the street before I left the house, and then I set off after him. I followed him to Lehman Street"... and ..."down to St George's in the East End".

To me it seems that the shop of the man was not far from Leman Street. I can well imagine that the suspect went through Old Castle Street/ Castle Alley before entering Leman Street. So it is possible that the shop of the man had been in Wentworth Street. Instead of Old Castle Street/ Castle Alley, Goulston Street and Commercial Street also make sense. Assuming that the shop was in Wentworth Street we would find it in the section between Middlesex Street and Commercial Street. If the shop was in the section between Commercial Road and Osborn Street the street leading to Leman Street could have been the George Yard.

Rob House described in "Prime Suspect" the "chazar mark" ("pig market" a slave-market) on Goulston Street where Jewish immigrants ("greeners") try to get work with the master tailors. If Cox watched in Wentworth Street, maybe, he "could see" the "chazar mark" and, maybe, it was easier to say that they are factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers who employed boys and girls under age, there, than in Greenfield Street.

"I allowed him to get right out of the street" and "We had the use of a house opposite the shop of the man we suspected"

Out of the street and opposite the shop could mean that Cox & Co. used a house on the north side of Wentworth Street and the shop of the man was on the south side where he get right out of the street towards Leman Street via Goulston Street or Old Castle Street/ Castle Alley.

"Not far from where the model lodging house stands he met another woman, and for a considerable distance he walked along with her."

Model lodging house?

George Yard Building in George Yard or Wentworth Model Dwelling in Goulston Street (GSG, Piece of apron) ?

Smith, Tabram the GSG/ Apron they all had something to do with the Wentworth Street. When the Ripper fled from Berner Street, it seems that he paused in Church Lane opposite Osborn Street towards Wentworth Street. The same night he fled from Mitre Square via Wentworth Street towards Goulston Street. Next to Old Castle Street/ Castle Alley were Newcastle Street/ Newcastle Place etc. There were living some people from Kalisz (Poland).Somewhere in Wentworth Street not far from the entrances to Goulston Street and Old Castle Street/ Castle Alley might have been the shop of "Kosminski". If this is right then Sergeant Stephen White´s street behind Whitechapel Road (Whitechapel High Street) could have been Wentworth Street not far from the Mackenzie crime scene in Castle Alley and the men in hiding were City Detectives watching "Kosminski". But he was not her killer... his case got weaker...

"I can tell you that at nights we ran a considerable risk. We carried our lives in our hands so to speak"

Behind this section in Wentworth Street were George Street and Thrawl Street together with the "Chazar Mark" + "he was a mad, poverty stricken inhabitant of some slum in the East End".
...

...I might understand why Cox & Co ran a considerable risk at night...

The incident near Brick Lane:

22 November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London):

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly."

This narrow thoroughfare, is it Wentworth Street?

Examples:

JACOB CASHTEIN (born Russia), a Jew's butcher of 122 Wentworth Street, Whitechapel (1890) and 95 Goulston Street in 1891 (Census) but Post Office Directory in 1891 his shop is 132 Wentworth Street (this is corner Goulston Street). Maybe he lived in 95 Goulston Street and worked in 132 Wentworth Street.

NATHAN COHEN (born Russia, Poland), a Tailor, 164 Wentworth Street in 1891 (Census) but his shop is 126 Wentworth Street (Post Office Directory).

I am not sure but I guess that both shops (126&132) were between the entrances of Goulston Street and Old Castle Street/ Castle Alley. Both shops were on the south side and in each case, Cox could allow him to get right out of the street... towards Leman Street...

In the case of Nathan Cohen I remember N. Cohen (brothel incident with Schmidt/Hickey/ Jones and Aaron Davis Cohen). In the case of Jacob Cashstein I think of the Butchers Row and I think of the dog belonging to Jacobs (Dog incident Dezember 1890). In one of the shops "Kosminski" could have worked and lived there. During the night, on weekends and on holidays he could have lived alone there.

Just an idea, just examples, speculation as always...

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Great! On the trail of Cox...

Anything Particular you would like me to photograph?

I'll certainly be on the junction of Osbourne Street and Brick Lane

I'll take the route South down to Berner street (Henrique Street)

Yours Jef