Packer and Schwartz

[Paddy]

Could it be this Butcher Row?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.51...0425376,17.75z

Hi Chris yes thats it thanks......Sadly not the right one. After I posted it I found that Sagar said it was Butchers Row Aldgate.

[Jeff Leahy]

Good morning Jeff,

" He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

You cannot detain a corpse.

Roy

Hi Roy

whether he was dead, alive, detained, joined the choir invisible or simply feeling unwell.. MacNAughtenh was 'uncertain' what happened to Kozminski after March 1889...

He was however positive Ostrog was alive

Yours Jeff

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Jeff,

" He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

You cannot detain a corpse.

Roy

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Paddy

Theres a feature on Sagars suspect on casebook by Scot Nelson which has the following photo...

'Butcher’s Row, Aldgate High Street during late Victorian times. Street numbers refer to the premises addresses. Map 145, B22, no 71 Vol .3 (By permission of the British Library)'

I'll do some double checking but as long as I have the MET/CITY boundary correct its marked on this map so should correspond with the RBS building in my photos

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Whether he is talking about Kozminski being alive or detained the context is clear that he is UNCERTAIN"

Yes, he did not know if Kosmisnki had been released.

Perhaps that's because he was not very interested, having exonerated him?

Cheers.
LC

I totally agree Lynn. MacNAughten preferred Druit...and for good reason, there was no proof discovered about Kozminhski up until March 1889

So MacNaughten was correct

What is being speculated is that Anderson believed Kozminski to be the ripper following an ID that happened at a later date...and MacNaughten didn't know about Swanson's/Andersons ID

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

[As I understand the records for Camberwell asylum are at the Wellcome Library London however I can find know reference for records March 1889

Hello Jeff,

See my post #877

At the moment I am on Ancestry searching for “the man”. Via Admission and Discharge records… Southwark, Camberwell, Havil Street Old and New Workhouses 1889-1890 but I am surprised there is no record before 17 März 1889!!!

I stopped at page 91. I guess I will not find anything...

"Terror" here in Germany... take a break... more ideas will follow...

Yours Karsten.

[lynn cates]

not very interested

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Whether he is talking about Kozminski being alive or detained the context is clear that he is UNCERTAIN"

Yes, he did not know if Kosmisnki had been released.

Perhaps that's because he was not very interested, having exonerated him?

Cheers.
LC

[Chris2307uk]

Could it be this Butcher Row?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5117923,-0.0425376,17.75z

[Jeff Leahy]

Camberwell House Asylum

See the rest of this archive
Previous Numbers MSS.6648-6649
Level Collection

Extent 2 volumes

Date mid 19th century - late 19th century
Ordering Instructions This archive record describes a grouping of orderable items: to order any of them for consultation, order copies or view them if they have been digitised, navigate down the archive hierarchy to Item level.
Name Camberwell House Asylum

Description
Volumes 2-3 of the case books of Camberwell House, a private lunatic asylum (metropolitan licensed house) at Camberwell, Surrey.

The casebooks contain records for approximately 900 people. The volumes contain no internal indexes but an alphabetical list of patient names has been compiled for each volume (see individual item level records for MS.6220 and MS.6221).

Volume 2 contains records for people admitted 1847-1850 with further notes on the some of the same patients through 1876. Volume 3 contains admission records for 1850-1853 with further records on some of the same patients through 1887.

Historical Background
The asylum was founded in 1846 by John Hayball Paul (1816-1899), who was also medical superintendent, 1846-99. Paul entered into partnership with F.G. Aubin and Alfred Richards as Aubin & Co., this firm being the official owner of the asylum at one period.

During the span of these case books the asylum admitted mainly pauper patients.

It closed in 1955.

For further historical background see N.B. Hervey, "The Lunacy Commission 1845-60, with special reference to ... Kent and Surrey", University of Bristol PhD thesis, 1987, Vol. 2, pp. 155-56, 173, 111-12; W. H. Blanch, Ye Parish of Camberwell pp.348-349 (E.W. Allen, 1875); and Fiona Subotsky and Jill Dudman, "The Founders of Camberwell House Asylum" (Friends of West Norwood Cemetery Newsletter No.73, January 2012, pp.8-11).

Custodial History Formerly in the collection of Dr R.A. Hunter.
Acquisition Details Purchased from R D Gurney Ltd, 1981 (acc. 334939).
Accession Number 334939
Access Status Open

Access Conditions The papers are available subject to the usual conditions of access to Archives and Manuscripts material. A digitised copy is available to view via the online catalogue on the Wellcome Library website.
Reproduction Conditions Images are supplied for private research only at the Archivist's discretion. Please note that material may be unsuitable for copying on conservation grounds. Researchers who wish to publish material must seek copyright permission from the copyright owner.

Language English
Finding Aids Database description taken from that in: Richard Palmer, Catalogue of Western Manuscripts in the Wellcome Library for the History & Understanding of Medicine: Western Manuscripts 5120-6244 (London: The Wellcome Library for the History & Understanding of Medicine, 1999).
Copies <p>A digitised copy is held by the Wellcome Library as part of The Mental Health Archives digitisation project.
Related Material
At other repositories:

The Royal College of Psychiatrists, London, holds: Vol. 1 of the Camberwell House case books, containing information on admissions nos. 1-441 (1846-1847) and notes up to the 1860s; two volumes containing admissions records nos.201-600 for pauper patients (1846-1848); the Visitors' Book of Commissioners in Lunacy, 1846-1865; photographs of the asylum (part of the asylum building, tennis court and the grounds); laundry rules (c. 1910); and a notice for a lecture and a concert held in the theatre at the asylum (c. 1920s).

MaterialType Archives - Non-digital
System No. cc32376a-ae12-44a8-b246-ee5e7e206cdf

Morning Karsten

As I understand the records for Camberwell asylum are at the Wellcome Library London however I can find know reference for records March 1889

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

MacNaughten on Kozminski: or as a possible alternative, was found to be so hopelessly mad by his relations, that he was then confined to SOME asylum.

Again it is clear from this that MacNAughten has little idea what happened to Kozminski or what asylum he was placed into

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Lynn and Roy

Your both twisting what MacNaughten says...

Whether he is talking about Kozminski being alive or detained the context is clear that he is UNCERTAIN

Thats because MacNughten was writing a memo about Cytbush and probablly worked from the available files

Why his comments on Ostrog are important is because he infactically states 'HE IS STILL ALIVE'... If he made this statement about Ostrog it is reasonable to draw the conclusion he would have said this about Kozminski had he known if he was alive

But MacNaughten didn't know anything about Kozminski other than what was in his file unto March 1889... If you can demonstrate any where else that MacNaughten states Kozminski is alive I'm all ears Until then we'll just stick with what MacNAughten actually says and that is (I believe still is)

MacNAughten doesn't know what happened to Kozminski once he was placed in a Private Asylum in Surrey

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

unsure

Hello Jeff. thanks.

"Its clear when reading this in context that MacNaughten is unsure whether or not Kozminski is alive after March 1889."

No, he is unsure whether he is still detained.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Its clear when reading this in context that MacANughten is unsure whether or not Kozminski is alive after March 1889... He only ever says Asylum...he never mentions Colney Hatch...

No, Macnaghten is not unsure. He does not address whether Kosminski is alive or not. He believes he is still detained.

It is Swanson and Swanson only who says Kosminki is deceased. And yes, Swanson does mention Colney Hatch, as the asylum where Kosminski went to and died shortly thereafter.

Kosmisnki died shortly after World War I.

Jeff, you put words in Macnaghten's mouth that he didn't say. Then you suggest it matters. What you said.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

" He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

Is what Macnaghten said of "Kosminski" in the Aberconway version. He did not say anything about whether he was alive or not. You are confusing the issue, Jeff, by mentioning something about Ostrog.

He was (and I believe still is) detained

Not -

He was (and I believe still is) alive

He didn't say that. You said that Jeff. Not Macnaghten. You. Jeff.

Roy

[Paddy]

Re Butcher Row Ratcliff

Sorry ignore the post and map
Sagar stated Butchers Row Aldgate. Should have checked......

Pat......