Packer and Schwartz

[Paddy]

"Packer and Schwartz were not called to the inquest because their testimony would have given the lie to the "double event"

I think maybe Packers evidence would not have stood up in court as a witness anyway as he changed his story, went to the press and Moore hashed it up while Abberline was away.
As for Schwartz, I really dont know. Does talking to the press hamper a court case ?

Pat..................

.

[Paddy]

Surrey Asylums

There are records from Havill Street and Constance road on Ancestry London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1659-1930 but they dont cover 1870 ish to 1888. I found a load of records of one of mine on them. She was sent from Havill street to Constance Road which I think was the old St Francis Hospital in East Dulwich and later to Leavesden.

Pat......

[Paddy]

Found this map that shows Butcher Row sometimes called Butchers Row
on St Katherines Blog in an article written by Andrea Gibbons on 16th July 2015 called Father John Groser at St Katherines early days in Radcliff...

It shows quite clearly Butcher Row.....Dodgy area from news articles.

Pat......

[Paddy]

Hi Jeff, where is Butchers Row in City or Met area?

Did you know there was a Butcher-Row in Ratcliff somewhere? I read a news clip I will sort it out.

Nice Pics
Pat....

[Jeff Leahy]

Photos showing cross over between City PC and MET PC patrols. The RBS bank gives a good indicator of where City PC's would patrol down to...its about the same distance from Aldgate Station to end of Patrol for the MET patrol to Goulston street

[Jeff Leahy]

Algate Station where a watchman observes a couple heading towards Mitre Square..

[Jeff Leahy]

Goulston Street upto City PC boundary

Hopefully I've some wider pictures to come that give an idea how close Goulston street actually is to City PC territory

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning all

For many years I believed that Jack took a sweeping route from Mitre square keeping low and dodging the patrols... This would make sense of taking time to stop in a stair well in Goulston Street.

However this seems like a logical behaviour for someone not wishing to get caught but what if Jack didn't care about being caught or not, 'I know the where about of all man kind?'

So I've been pondering the most direct route from Aldgate Station to Goulston Street... The City PC witness and the couple seen at Aldgate by a watchman, and that mans most direct route to Goulston street from Mitre Square.

So todays journey starts at the Graffito and heads North towards Whitechapel High Street

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Mac doesn't even know what happened to Kozminski after that (I believe still is)"

But he, alone, recognised that Kosminski was not dead.

Cheers.
LC

No Lynn he only recognises that Ostrog is NOT dead... He says so directly... 'HE IS STILL ALIVE'

About Kozminski he only says: He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889.

Its clear when reading this in context that MacANughten is unsure whether or not Kozminski is alive after March 1889... He only ever says Asylum...he never mentions Colney Hatch...

And now Karstens discovered a local jewish infirmary with connections to Camberwell Asylum... An Asylum in Surrey.

Yours Jeff

[DJA]

The tool of anyone who shaved.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jon,

They ignored the razor? It must not have had any blood on it. I suppose it would only work for slashing, not piercing, anyway?

I agree but strangely wouldn't a razor be the toll of a barber or Hair dresser?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten.

The way I read it, and in keeping with procedure, I think the constable came across this man on the street and stopped to question him, which is when he did not give an account of himself.
For what its worth, I read this bit below as what occurred out on the street.

"...a constable who found him prowling about not far from Mitre-street. His face was haggard, and he seemed unable to give any account of himself."


Whereas the rest of the paragraph refers to being at Leman-street:

"a man was, later in the day, brought to the Leman-street Police-station .
.
.
Upon him were found 1s 4½d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman. At the station he said, in reply to the inspector, that he had walked from Southampton, and belonged to the Royal Sussex Regiment. An examination of his boots was not confirmatory of his statement about his travels, and he was detained that inquiries might be made. No blood was found upon his clothes, nor any weapon likely to have inflicted the wounds. No importance is attached to this arrest, and the man has since been liberated."



It's having Kozminski claim to belong to the Royal Sussex Regiment that doesn't feel right.

He would have been required to give his address at the station, so no need to follow him to find that out. They will not let him leave unless they are satisfied no suspicion is to be attached to him.

As for the bit about checking his boots. How are they supposed to determine whether he walked from Southampton?
I think it more likely they checked his boots for blood, and because footprints were likely found in the blood around Eddowes body - that's why they checked his boots - in my opinion.

Good Morning Jon!

If the "haggard face" man is "Kosminski" he was found 36-40 hours after the Double Event by a constable not far from Mitre Square. Hours before, he killed two woman. But he had enough time to change his clothing and shoes before he was found by this constable (perhaps he returned to the crime scene or he was on the way to work-Butcher Row, Aldgate High Street, not far from Mitre Square). We do not know what the constable (or other Policemen) asking him but it is possible that "Kosminski" thought he was seen by someone (PC). In such a situation he would not have told the truth.

His belief that he was “ill, and his cure consists in refusing food,” and his belief that he was “under protection of of the Russian Consulate”… He also claimed that “he knows the movements of all mankind” and noted the presence of what he called “instinct” (Rob House)

This kind of man might say, I guess:

"had walked from Southampton, and belonged to the Royal Sussex Regiment"

We have a man after the Double Event who was in an East End Infirmary, we have bloody shirts in Batty Street, we have a PC near Mitre Square and we have a man with a coloured handkerchief seen by Lawende and we have this "haggard face" man who wore a violet scarf and who was found by a PC near Mitre Square so I think that this man could have something to do with all these things.

I can well imagine that this man, after he had left the Leman Street Police Station, was followed by detectives and shadowed over the following days (including East End Infirmary) because the detectives were thinking that this man is not quite right in his mind.

Karsten.

[lynn cates]

not dead

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Mac doesn't even know what happened to Kozminski after that (I believe still is)"

But he, alone, recognised that Kosminski was not dead.

Cheers.
LC

[Pcdunn]

Hi, Jon,

I think they could tell from looking at the boot soles whether someone had been accustomed to walking a long distance, from the signs of wear, maybe holes, perhaps the type of soil or mud on them. If the man's boots were relatively clean and whole, perhaps he hadn't tramped from Southampton after all?
We forget just how much walking people really did, back before automobiles were common.

[Wickerman]

Just thoughts...

If the police followed the man they would have found out where the man was living... maybe, at the police station he changed his "unable to give any account of himself"... and suddenly he was able to give account of himself... who knows...

Hi Karsten.

The way I read it, and in keeping with procedure, I think the constable came across this man on the street and stopped to question him, which is when he did not give an account of himself.
For what its worth, I read this bit below as what occurred out on the street.

"...a constable who found him prowling about not far from Mitre-street. His face was haggard, and he seemed unable to give any account of himself."


Whereas the rest of the paragraph refers to being at Leman-street:

"a man was, later in the day, brought to the Leman-street Police-station .
.
.
Upon him were found 1s 4½d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman. At the station he said, in reply to the inspector, that he had walked from Southampton, and belonged to the Royal Sussex Regiment. An examination of his boots was not confirmatory of his statement about his travels, and he was detained that inquiries might be made. No blood was found upon his clothes, nor any weapon likely to have inflicted the wounds. No importance is attached to this arrest, and the man has since been liberated."

If this man was "Kosminski"..

It's having Kozminski claim to belong to the Royal Sussex Regiment that doesn't feel right.

He would have been required to give his address at the station, so no need to follow him to find that out. They will not let him leave unless they are satisfied no suspicion is to be attached to him.

As for the bit about checking his boots. How are they supposed to determine whether he walked from Southampton?
I think it more likely they checked his boots for blood, and because footprints were likely found in the blood around Eddowes body - that's why they checked his boots - in my opinion.