Packer and Schwartz

[S.Brett]

Hello Karsten. Thanks.

22?

Cheers.
LC

Good Morning Lynn,

Of course, we do not know if Cox and/or Sagar watched "Kosminski", however, Cox "was on duty in this street for nearly three months" and the suspect, this time, went not in an (private) asylum. In the case of Sagar "and we watched him carefully", "have him removed to a private asylum"...

For months and carefully this suspect seems to have been very important.

So, why not "Kosminski"? For Anderson and Swanson he was the prime suspect/ the murderer, for Macnaghten a "strong suspect" and it is possible that for Cox and Sagar he also was a strong suspect/ prime suspect "a man living in the East End of London was not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes" and "the man they were watching had something to do with the crimes" (Cox)/ ("suspicion fell upon a man, who, without doubt, was the murderer" (Sagar).

Post 109:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=278684#post278684

I quote:

"Jeff,

City Police on the territory of the MET!

GEORGE JOHNSON, JOHN PHILLIPS, Deception > forgery, 24th November 1890.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...ager#highlight

JOSEPH TRAGHEIM . “I came from the Baltic provinces—I live at 81, Greenfield Street, Commercial Road—I was formerly in business at Rotterdam…”

ROBERT CHILD (City Detective)

“I was watching Tragheim—between October 1st and 17th I saw Tragheim daily, except on Sundays—I saw three or four other persons of the gang who he spoke to; he was then sleeping at 81, Greenfield Street—I did not watch him at all, he made appointments and we kept them—other officers were watching;”

JOHN HARMAN . I am a lithographic printer, of 12, Bacon Street,. Brick Lane

HENRY COX (City Policeman). "On 24th September, in consequence of instructions from Child, I watched in Liverpool Street, and saw the prisoners together—I followed Johnson and another man to Bethnal Green, and lost sight of him in Gibraltar Gardens—I saw him again next day in Liverpool Street with someone else, followed them to Bacon Street, Spitalfields, and lost sight of him—on the 29th I saw Johnson again, and followed him to Mr. Harman's, 12, Bacon Street—I did not wait to see him come out—on September 30th I was watching in Bacon Street, and saw Johnson come there about 1.20; he went into No. 12, and came out about 4.20—I followed him to Shoreditch Station and lost sight of him—while he was there on the 30th I saw Mr. Harman come out to get some food, he was out twenty' minutes or half an hour—I have seen Johnson, Phillips, and Tragheim in company on other occasions in September and October."

ROBERT SAGER (City Police Inspector). "On 22nd October I was keeping observation on 115, Hayter Road, Forest Gate, and when Phillips left I said, "Mr. Phillips, I am an officer, and these are officers here from the City; I am going to arrest you for forging and uttering letters of credit on Drexel and Morgan, of London and other places"—he said, "I have got no letters of credit; I know nothing about them"—I took him to the station."

Tragheim lived 81 Greenfield Street; six doors down: Isaac Abrahams lived 74 Greenfield Street, Matilda Lubnowski, opposite Isaac, 16 Greenfield Street. In October 1890 “other officers (City Police) were watching” in Greenfield Street.

Cox and Sagar, City CID, were involved in this case on the territory of the MET police. Cox himself followed to Bethnal Green, Spitalfields, Shoreditch… Bacon Street was at the northern end of Brick Lane.

You see, Jeff, City Police were watching in the Greenfield Street shortly before Aaron Kozminski went to Colney Hatch.

"other officers (of the City Police) were watching" in October 1890 in Greenfield Street...

Karsten."

Post 110:

"Swanson:

"On suspect's return to his brother's house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night"

And there is City Police in Greenfield Street. If this "brother´s house in Whitechapel" is Sion Square (Woolf) then it is possible that the City CID also watched Greenfield Street with the homes of Isaac and Matilda... "

Okay...

WHO IS "LEATHER APRON"?

"he is five feet four or five inches in height, and wears a dark, close-fitting cap... His hair is black, and closely clipped... He has a small, black moustache... . In addition to being known as "Leather Apron" he is also known as the "Mad Snob"... is the son of a fairly well-to-do Russian Jew..."

His hair is black, and closely clipped reminds me of Cox who stated:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

Cox:

"He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."

Sims/Macnaghten:

"who was the sole occupant of certain premises in Whitechapel after night-fall. This man was in the district during the whole period covered by the Whitechapel murders"

"He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889"

"he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889"

He occupied several shops/ The sole occupant of certain premises, maybe, Cox and "Macnaghten" talked about the same man, "Kosminski".

Sims:

"They were both alive long after the horrors had ceased, and though both were in an asylum, there had been a considerable time after the cessation of the Ripper crimes during which they were at liberty and passing about among their fellow men."

this and:

"was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey" (Cox)

speaks for "Kosminski".

Many ripperologist say the Cox man cannot be Kosminski because Cox stated:

"the shop of the man, the door of his little shop, his own house"

Why not "Kosminski" / Aaron Kozminski?

Imagine that Morris Lubnowski had a little shop (for a short time as well as Woolf Abrahams, Jacob Cohen and Davies) where Aaron Kozminski worked and lived, alone during the night and on weekends and holidays, he might be the man Cox watched.

Harry Cox told that he followed the man to Leman Street (to a shop) and to St George's in the East End. It seems to me that Cox crossed the High Street from north to south towards Leman Street and St George's in the East End (Berner Street/ Providence Street) and then back again (via High Street) "Not far from where the model lodging house stands" . He spoke about the model lodging house just like Swanson spoke about the Seaside Home and I guess Cox meant the George Yard Building (Tabram and not far from the Smith crime scene). It seems to me that this shop was located north of the Whitechapel Road in or near Brick Lane.

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"Kozminski was therefore the local nutter."

Well, that would depend on when and where his episodes hit.

Cheers.
LC

Yeah I'm aware that schizophrenia is an on and off illness... But local gossip doesn't allow for that. If a community has people in it that are odd for any reason, they simply become the local nutter.

If Aaron had lived in this community since a child he would have been known, at least by sight..although I accept that Jewish communities tended to keep themselves to themselves and use there own shops and businesses

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning Lynn

I don't want to shift too off topic, however I do think your questions go to the heart of why I now feel Schwartz wasn't the Seaside Home witness and Packer might have known or at least known about Kozminski

"A suspect followed as long and considered to be the murderer by Cox must have been an important suspect... So if it wasn't Kozminski then why isn't another suspect named?"

Of course, there were MANY suspects who were watched. Nor do we have their names.

Of course this is true, however Kozminski was a SIGNIFICANT suspect. He's named by Swanson and Mcnaughton and there now seems little doubt he was Anderson's suspect....the question is why? and that's what we're attempting to figure out.

"Cox and Sagar can't have been describing Druitt, who was dead or Ostrog who was in jail."

I agree. And IF Kosminski were the ONLY other suspect, then by disjunctive syllogism, he would be the one. But there were MANY.

Again there were many but we can't factor the unknown here and the few odd names mentioned in Ledgers or the odd nutter walking the street are difficult to quantify. I simply state Kozminski was a significant suspect for the reasons I've given.

"Yes, yes precisely, that's what Karsten has been arguing ... Why did MacNaughten prefer Druitt, when Swanson and Anderson say he was positively ID'd by the only man who ever had a good look at the murderer and he knew he was identified?

That's because MacNaughten had the original file created by Cox.... And that doesn't mention anything after March 1889... And the ID took place shortly before Kozminski entered Colney Hatch Feb, 1891."

What evidence do we have that Mac was working from Cox's file?

I'm simply reasoning that Cox's surveillance must have created a significant amount of paperwork and cost. So a significant suspect...but where is he if he is NOT kozminski... He must have been in that store cupboard of old cases when MAcNAughten wrote his report in 1894?

"MacNaughten didn't know about the ID, or what happened after March 1889.'

Apparently, neither did many other top coppers.

Ah yes now your asking the right questions!

Why did Aubergine (Aware of the Kozminski story at his old department) go for Chapman. Why did Reid deny they knew the ID of the killer?

Answer: They knew about the suspect and dismissed him

Thats because they new about the suspect unto March 1889.... A suspect that must have been held and released for some reason then followed...A suspect that was never caught red handed.

The only copper who may have known more about Kozminski is Sagar. And Possibly two other senior officers must have known about the costs..Smith and Monroe

"Cox gives quite detailed description of surveillance at a sweater premises. Of a man with short dark curly hair."

Very well. But does this entail the leap to Kosminski?

I'm saying that much of what Cox says fits with what we now know about Kozminski...And what we don't know raises some interesting possibilities, which is why I believe Karsten is suggesting a small shop belonging to the family in Brick Lane.

"He's talking about Kozminski alright...if he isn't where is his suspect?"

He never says. he does not even mention his name. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this story sounds like one of MANY contemporary stories done for self-aggrandisement.

The devil is in the details

"Scores? I'm not certain about that..but there was another man on the street that was the same age, the same condition and a similar name..David Cohen.. Were they both brought to Lehman police station...was there confusion?"

Possibly "Yes" to both.

The similarity between what is know about Cohen and Kozminski is most interesting, they even had the same doctor at County Hatch, Dr Seward

"No, my case is primarily on his being named by Swanson...'Kozminski was the suspect.'"

Very well, but this looks VERY like Mac and his first-name-less suspect.

This debate has raised for years. Aaron is the only person ever found who makes a credible match for Kozminski. The more we learn about him the better the match seems.

Many credible ripperologists have argued MacNAughten is discussing a different Kozminski. What is unique about Karsten's theory is that he argues that we're looking at the same Kozminski who simply entered two different asylums at different times. Once in March 1889 (A private Asylum) and a second time in Feb 1891 (Colney Hatch)

"It is corroborated to an extent by Anderson, MacNaughten, Sims, Griffiths, Abberline, Reid, and of course Cox and Sagar."

But ONLY Mac gives a name--and merely a cognomen at that.

Cheers.
LC

I think it can now be reasoned that MacANughten is talking about the same Kozminski as Swanson and that Anderson is talking about the same suspect.

A significant suspect or as Rob House put it a PRIME SUSPECT

Aaron Kozminski is the only person who could have been that suspect.. But why do many of the comments about the various Policeman in charge seem to disagree?

This is the problem we seek to solve not whether Kozminski was Jack the Ripper or not (This may surprise you but what is being argue here still leaves in doubt that Aaron was the ripper...it would all hinge on an as yet unknown witness)

Personally I'm convinced Aaron Kozminski was the man followed by Cox, a file referenced by MacANughten and later Sims and Griffiths

The same suspect referred to by Anderson and Swanson

'Kozminski was the suspect'

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

22

Hello Karsten. Thanks.

22?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

when and where

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"Kozminski was therefore the local nutter."

Well, that would depend on when and where his episodes hit.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Kosminski

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Again I draw you back to Mac's list."

Ok, but hopefully, NOT to Ostrog (heh-heh)

"A suspect followed as long and considered to be the murderer by Cox must have been an important suspect... So if it wasn't Kozminski then why isn't another suspect named?"

Of course, there were MANY suspects who were watched. Nor do we have their names.

"Cox and Sagar can't have been describing Druitt, who was dead or Ostrog who was in jail."

I agree. And IF Kosminski were the ONLY other suspect, then by disjunctive syllogism, he would be the one. But there were MANY.

"Yes, yes precisely, that's what Karsten has been arguing ... Why did MacNaughten prefer Druitt, when Swanson and Anderson say he was positively ID'd by the only man who ever had a good look at the murderer and he knew he was identified?

That's because MacNaughten had the original file created by Cox.... And that doesn't mention anything after March 1889... And the ID took place shortly before Kozminski entered Colney Hatch Feb, 1891."

What evidence do we have that Mac was working from Cox's file?

"MacNaughten didn't know about the ID, or what happened after March 1889.'

Apparently, neither did many other top coppers.

"Cox gives quite detailed description of surveillance at a sweater premises. Of a man with short dark curly hair."

Very well. But does this entail the leap to Kosminski?

"He's talking about Kozminski alright...if he isn't where is his suspect?"

He never says. he does not even mention his name. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this story sounds like one of MANY contemporary stories done for self-aggrandisement.

"Scores? I'm not certain about that..but there was another man on the street that was the same age, the same condition and a similar name..David Cohen.. Were they both brought to Lehman police station...was there confusion?"

Possibly "Yes" to both.

"No, my case is primarily on his being named by Swanson...'Kozminski was the suspect.'"

Very well, but this looks VERY like Mac and his first-name-less suspect.

"It is corroborated to an extent by Anderson, MacNaughten, Sims, Griffiths, Abberline, Reid, and of course Cox and Sagar."

But ONLY Mac gives a name--and merely a cognomen at that.

Cheers.
LC

[S.Brett]

Many thanks Karsten thats the one... Any idea of the Date?

Saturday, 27 October 1888!

Don't tell anyone but we are off to watch the new James Bond Movie...apparentlabout 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair;y Cat likes his acting

Have fun!

Please tell Cat, she would probably also like my acting as James Bond. I´m more the kind of Mr. Bean...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU-YQmM0fMM

If the haggard-face man with the violet scarf (PC), having a small fair moustache, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour (Lawende) and about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair (Cox) was "Kosminski", could he be the man Schwartz described hair, about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp.,fair;dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak?

[Jeff Leahy]

Commercial Road!

"Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last, I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

Yours Karsten.

Many thanks Karsten thats the one... Any idea of the Date?

Yours Jeff

Don't tell anyone but we are off to watch the new James Bond Movie...apparently Cat likes his acting

[S.Brett]

Hello Jeff,

Guess would be 28 years old..

Thank you.

PS I thought there was another article where Packer claimed to have seen the man in Commercial Street?

Commercial Road!

"Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last, I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

Yours Karsten.

[S.Brett]

It strikes me that between the black, dark, pepper & salt and grey descriptions there is a "spot of colour", Lawende´s red neckerchief, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot

The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 2 October, 1888:

"a man was, later in the day, brought to the Leman-street Police-station by a constable who found him prowling about not far from Mitre-street. His face was haggard, and he seemed unable to give any account of himself. Upon him were found 1s 4½d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman." (1 October 1888)

A violet scarf in the darkness of Duke Street... has a reddish tint... isn´t it...

New York Times 2 October 1888:

"The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good decription of him".

Sims:

“The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack the Ripper in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.”

Macnaughten:

“This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square”.

My question is:

Could this Watchboy/Policeman be the City PC? If the man he saw wore a violet woolen scarf then it is possible that this man might be the man Lawende saw with a red neckerchief.

[Jeff Leahy]

The man in the photo, what is his age?

Guess would be 28 years old..

Yours Jeff

PS I thought there was another article where Packer claimed to have seen the man in Commercial Street?

[S.Brett]

It was something that Karsten first suggested and at first I thought the same as you do...

However if you think about it, packer and Kozminski were neighbours. Kozminski had lived next door to Dutfield yard as a child. He lived around the corner Greenfield street and provenance street in 1888.
Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

"In 1871, the couple were living at 1 Princes Street, Whitechapel (now part of Old Montague Street)[3] where Matthew is listed as a fishmonger. They later moved to 25 Fairclough Street and were joined by Matthew's stepmother Sarah[4]. By 1888, the Packers were living at 44 Berner Street, with lodgers Sarah Harrison and Harry Douglas. Matthew ran a fruit and sweet shop from the premises."

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Matthew_Packer.html

I do not know if Packer and Woolf & Aaron were neighbors in Berner Street 1881/82. Nonetheless, they might have known each other. 25 Fairclough Street to 25 Providence Street is the same distance as 44 Berner Street to 25 Providence Street. Woolf lived before December 1886 - after July 1887 in 62 Greenfield Street.

And Packer clearly goes to the local press and says he's seen the man at a later date, some months afterwards....Why?

I posted (No.186):

Hello!

It is nice to see that someone thinks the same way about it.

"Newspaper parcel" seen by PC Smith:

Packer: "I put the grapes in a paper bag and handed them to him."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

Evening News, 20 October 1888:

"The police called on Mr. Packer, of 44, Berner-street, yesterday morning. Mr. Packer, when asked his opinion as to where the murderer lodged - for he had seen him several times before the fatal night - remarked, "In the next street." It is considered he is not far wrong in his conjecture; but the police do not deem it prudent to say what steps are being taken in the matter."

Evening News, 31 October 1888:

“He alleges that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman who was murdered in Berner-street, but he had not seen any one resembling the man since the murder till he saw him again last Saturday night” (27 October)

"Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last, I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."

Birmingham Daily Post, 14 September 1889:

"Shortly after the commission of the murder preceding the Pinchin Street discovery Packer again expressed an opinion that the criminal did not live "very far from Batty Street," which is within three minutes walk of the railway arch."

"In the next street." Woolf Abrahams, 25 Providence Street

"did not live very far from Batty Street" Providence Street/ Greenfield Street

"Greenfield-street" Isaac Abrahams & Matilda Lubnowski

We should keep an eye on Packer.

Karsten.

All I can say is:

In 2003/204 when I came from a club I witnessed a similar incident similar to Dutfields Yard. In this situation I "was" Schwartz, but honestly, I would have been a very poor witness. The people involved looked like the most people I had seen in that night.

Once more I beg you, Jeff, Lynn and the other people here:

The man in the photo, what is his age?

[Abby Normal]

Actually Jon there are reasons to doubt both as authentic sightings of Elizabeth Stride, since Israel has what seems like an improbable storyline and zero corroborative evidence, and Browns ID isn't validated by anyone else either.

None of the key players in the Stride witness pool have any corroborative accounts to help validate their assertions, other than Fanny Mortimer.

Cheers
Mike

ahh. fanny Mortimer. Now theres a valuable witness! ; )


I find the un corroborated witness argument weak. Most witnesses are uncorroborated by other witnesses. People are convicted every day in court by an uncorroborated witness.

In the ripper case, only Lawende is corroborated.

PC smith is uncorroborated-does that make his testimony useless?

Besides, Marshall, Schwartz, lawende and even possibly smith all describe a similar man-wearing a peaked cap. so does the anon church street sighting.

They also all think the woman was similar to Stride.

Not sure if it all fits the definition of corroboration-but its close enough in my book.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn.

It may be nothing more than the fact the police have two witnesses, Brown & Schwartz, who both claim to have seen the same woman at the same time in different locations.
This is sufficient to render a little doubt in one or the other's story.

Actually Jon there are reasons to doubt both as authentic sightings of Elizabeth Stride, since Israel has what seems like an improbable storyline and zero corroborative evidence, and Browns ID isn't validated by anyone else either.

None of the key players in the Stride witness pool have any corroborative accounts to help validate their assertions, other than Fanny Mortimer.

Cheers
Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

Not sure I would bet much on Packer, though.

Cheers.
LC

Yes I can see your odd kozminskite choking on his Cornflakes with this suggestion.

It was something that Karsten first suggested and at first I thought the same as you do...

However if you think about it, packer and Kozminski were neighbours. Kozminski had lived next door to Dutfield yard as a child. He lived around the corner Greenfield street and provenance street in 1888.

Kozminski was therefore the local nutter.

We have Fanny stood at her door why? Because she was waiting for local gossip and chat....

So if there was a local nutter in the area isn't it reasonable to expect lots of local gossip... on the street, in the shops, by the neighbouring residents..

Is the idea that Packer knew Kozminski so far fetched? He may be unreliable, but the idea he knew Kozminski is not so far fetched...

And Packer clearly goes to the local press and says he's seen the man at a later date, some months afterwards....Why?

Yours Jeff