Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

". . . if dragged by the left outstretched arm, she naturally twists onto her side."

The left? The cachous hand?

Cheers.
LC

Those damn mints, always a problem.. all we can say is she did keep hold of them because they were in her hand

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"But don't Anderson and Swanson believe that it was...'a definitively ascertained Fact'"

Anderson did. But we have no real idea how Swanson believed. That is just the nature of annotations.

Cheers.
LC

The annotations need to be considered in context.. Its my opinion that Swanson was the main source for the Kozminski investigation which was unto March 1889..

But Kozminski was back on the street and his sister in fear for her family came forward in Secret...The crawford letter.. a new witness was found and used

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Obviously there was NOT enough time for Stride to leave someone at the Board School and then be seen with someone else in front of the gates at the same time of 12:45. So you must be under an assumption that these times were inaccurate, one or the other, or both. I assume that one of the sightings is made up and the other was not Liz Stride..it was the young couple seen by other witnesses...so I guess we are about even with our ability to prove anything at this moment.

Hi Michael

If you would like to meet at Berner street, I can assure you that when Brown leaves the shop crossing the cross roads it only takes 4 or 5 seconds to cross the juction and pass stride and the man leant against the wall

Where as Schwartz takes between a minute and 90 seconds depending on directory to reach Dutfield Yard, So it is possible for Stride to say 'Not tonight some other night' turn and leave unseen by Brown who has his back to Stride and cross the juction to Dutfield Yard may be 10 - 15 seconds

This would mean she meets BSM at the yard entrance rather than waiting inside the gate way..

This also leaves a the man seen by Brown standing just out of Schwartz sight around the corner... Precisely where pipeman appears seconds later..

However, on Fanny, she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50..when she spent that entire 10 minutes at her door. Not only must you assume that she was NOT at her door at 12:45...something that is purely speculative....but also that Louis Diemshitz must have made an error as to his arrival time...something that he stated was empirical.

IF Fanny didn't lie, then Louis was not arriving just before 1am.

Cheers

Fanny's story is cooberated by Goldstein. He passes through Berner street shortly before 1 am. Fanny saw him and he must have recognised his description and come forward.

If Fanny was stood at her door for nomore than ten minutes it must of be 12.48ish to 12.58ish. Standing at the door is a common pass time in 1888. So perhaps she was at her door more than once? But we know that she was at her door when Gouldstein walks through... She does not see Stride soliciting.. and from her POV she can't see Strides body a few feet away but around the corner 90 degree in Dutfield yard

This is the logical conclusion i.e. that everything fits obviously we can allow people to be out by a few seconds but its not required

Eagle might have missed Strides body but it seems unlikely

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hello Karsten. Thanks. I appreciate the photos.

The quotation seems not to indicate that the suspect was in custody until after having some time elapsed AFTER the killings.

What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I thank you...

Sims:

"Many of the mysterious cases that baffle our police and remain mysteries are crimes of insanity committed by lunatics who have been released from control and allowed to go at large without the slightest attempt at supervision. The whole series of Whitechapel atrocities were committed by a man who had been discharged from an asylum."

Sims (Dagonet):

"Frequently this outburst - or, rather, this recurrence - of mania means a murder - sometimes a massacre. The homicidal maniac who shocked the World as Jack the Ripper had been once - I am not sure that it was not twice - in a lunatic asylum. At the time his dead body was found in the Thames, his friends, who were terrified at his disappearance from their midst, were endeavouring to have him found and placed under restraint again."

But I think we can count on Jonathan Hainsworth (Case solved 1891) who makes clear that Sims talked about Druitt.

Griffiths:

"One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum."

The Polish Jew is "Kosminski" and "known lunatic" and "was at large" could mean he also was in an asylum before the Whitechapel Murders took place.

I think (he was and) it was similar to Richard Trenton Chase, "Kosminski" should have been in an asylum before the murders were committed, so my guess. The police did expect it at that time and we should also expect it today.

Lynn, I will stop posting about the wrong topic (Kosminski).

I am convinced that Lawende saw the Ripper. It is very possible that Packer saw the Ripper (as a customer) and Schwartz´s BS Man, well, I guess 80:20 for being the Ripper.

Karsten.

[lynn cates]

take

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If the police definitely determined that Schwartz had lied to them. . ."

Don't think it was definite. The pieces did not fit and so--given he did not back down--he were merely told, "WE don't buy it. We need more evidence."

". . . and that his non-appearance at the inquest confirms this, they apparently did nothing about it. Wouldn't he have been charged?"

Only if they had something definite. A mere caution would suffice.

"Also, wouldn't they have also come to the conclusion that the club was behind it all?"

Possibly. But they had already investigated them. Nothing to see.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

deception

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What do you think the result would be when a reporter is told by an officer, "we do not believe the story given by the witness". The reporter can only walk away right?
What do you think the officer wanted the reporter to do?"

Slight problem--in his report, Swanson seems fully aware of their suspicions.

But, perhaps their subterfuge were so expert at Leman that they deceived EVEN Swanson?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

after

Hello Karsten. Thanks. I appreciate the photos.

The quotation seems not to indicate that the suspect was in custody until after having some time elapsed AFTER the killings.

What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sinister remark

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

". . . if dragged by the left outstretched arm, she naturally twists onto her side."

The left? The cachous hand?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

annotations

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"But don't Anderson and Swanson believe that it was...'a definitively ascertained Fact'"

Anderson did. But we have no real idea how Swanson believed. That is just the nature of annotations.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

theories

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Perhaps she was just rolled off Deimschutz's cart?"

Actually, this is no worse than many theories I have heard.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Jon,

You have to wonder if somebody on the police force let slip that there were difficulties in assessing the reliability of Schwartz's story because of the difficulties encountered with the translation process and that this in effect is what the press was referring to.

c.d.

[Rosella]

Fanny could also have owned a mangle. Apparently it was quite common to hire the mangle out for a few pennies a time.

[c.d.]

Yes, Fanny's husband died in the early months of 1889, leaving her with five children to support. He had been a carman. Fanny was a widowed manglewoman in the 1891 census, though she later remarried.

Hello Rosella,

Thank you for that. In light of that information, perhaps Fanny's statement should be taken with a large grain of salt. A sick husband and five children might make enough demands on her time so that a long, uninterrupted sit would probably have been a rarity.

I had to look up the meaning of "manglewoman." The term refers to a woman that irons other people's sheets.

c.d.

[Rosella]

With regard to Fanny Mortimer, I recall a discussion earlier stating that she had a sick husband and several children. Was that ever confirmed? I think I saw something in that regard but simply can't remember now.

c.d.

Yes, Fanny's husband died in the early months of 1889, leaving her with five children to support. He had been a carman. Fanny was a widowed manglewoman in the 1891 census, though she later remarried.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

Just a quick reply as the rugby final is about to start...And I have covered this in previous posts

Fanny is place at her door by Goldstein who past through Berner street SHORTLY BEFORE 1 am... So it ties with her going inside and hearing the cart.

Brown's POV meant he could not have seen the flower, because she had her back to the wall and the man stood between Brown and the Flower.

There was enough time for Stride to leave the man and meet BSM as he and Schwartz had only just turned into Berner Street.

Brown had his back to Stride and would not have seen her leave towards Dutfield..

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Obviously there was NOT enough time for Stride to leave someone at the Board School and then be seen with someone else in front of the gates at the same time of 12:45. So you must be under an assumption that these times were inaccurate, one or the other, or both. I assume that one of the sightings is made up and the other was not Liz Stride..it was the young couple seen by other witnesses...so I guess we are about even with our ability to prove anything at this moment.

However, on Fanny, she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50..when she spent that entire 10 minutes at her door. Not only must you assume that she was NOT at her door at 12:45...something that is purely speculative....but also that Louis Diemshitz must have made an error as to his arrival time...something that he stated was empirical.

IF Fanny didn't lie, then Louis was not arriving just before 1am.

Cheers