Packer and Schwartz

[S.Brett]

The schizophrenia shows the disorganized killer. It existed in the background of Jack the Ripper. He was mentally disturbed (paranoid schizophrenia/ hebephrenic schizophrenia or a mixed form).

Robert Ressler ("I Have Lived In The Monster" by Robert K.Ressler & Tom Shachtman):

"It also seemed clear to me that the Ripper had been a "disorganized" killer'..."who was mentally deranged and becoming more so with each victim"

I do not know if John Douglas and Roy Hazelwood agreed with Ressler regarding a possible suicide but in Robert House´s book "Jack the Ripper And The Case For Scotland Yard´s Prime Suspect" you will see what Roy Hazelwood, John Douglas and Laura Richards have to say.

Hello Abby!

also, apparently "he hadn't attempted any work for years" might say something about this, at the very least did he even have the money or werewithall to solicit a prostitute?

Between March 1889 and February 1891 = almost two years...

however, its possible, and if kosminski was the ripper, I think his severe mental illness was the cause of the end of the murders and not the cause of the murders.

Ressler again:

"If the killer was deranged and becoming progressively more so, it is likely that he might well have gone off the deep end entirely"..."so crazed that he could no longer even commit crimes"

You are correct but the Cox suspect "worked" (Cox: "very soon he removed from his usual haunts and gave up his nightly prowls") for months after the Kelly murder. Maybe, the suspect could no longer commit crimes after about March 1889. But before March 1889? The reason for this: He might have known that he is shadowed or he knew he was identified by a witness, a witness not known to the police before the second half of 1890.

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

however, its possible, and if kosminski was the ripper, I think his severe mental illness was the cause of the end of the murders and not the cause of the murders.

Good afternoon Abbey, I agree

Schizophrenia typically starts in late teens early twenties. I recently posted a new study which suggests it has something to do with the point the body stops growing. Certainly scientists here in the UK claim to be analysing its causes and effects at long last, although the drugs available haven't changed in forty years and shorten life expectation.

But schizophrenics are NOT dangerous, infact more likely to be a danger unto themselves... So if Kozminski was the killer, we'd also expect underlining personality disorders...and on this analysis it would be almost impossible to include or exclude any suspect..(psychosis being the bye product of many illnesses and edictions)

However the bizarre nature of the killing suggest to me someone with a deeply disturbed mind and destorted perspective of the world..an extremely rare combination which I'd suggest fairly unique to its time frame and environment...There haven't been any such killings in a long time in the UK (Dis-embowlments on the street that is) Which is why I personally think this kind of killing more like a modern Spree killing... But thats rather off track of the witness thread..

Many thanks


Yours Jeff

[curious4]

Hello Karsten, Jeff

I can see I shall have to look at Kosminski again. Not convinced though.

Hello Abby

Exactly. :-)

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[Abby Normal]

Hello

The main problem I have with Kosminski (or anyone like him) is that he was known to be mentally unbalanced. His odd behaviour (picking up bread from the ground and eating it, possibly muttering to himself etc) would attract attention. Gossip travels surprisingly quickly, the grapevine being at least as fast as the internet, so word would have got round. He was exactly the kind of person who was suspected to be the killer. Why then would a potential JTR victim allow herself to be taken into a lonely spot with such a man?

Best wishes
C4

I agree with this. Eventhough we don't know exactly what mental state he was in in 1888, I think it fair to say he was probably a little to odd looking or strange acting to fool a victim to feel safe enough to go with him to a secluded area especially at the height of the ripper scare.

also, apparently "he hadn't attempted any work for years" might say something about this, at the very least did he even have the money or werewithall to solicit a prostitute?

and I find it hard to believe someone like Mary Kelly, or stride, who were not in desperate staits, would have wasted their time with a character like kosminski.

however, its possible, and if kosminski was the ripper, I think his severe mental illness was the cause of the end of the murders and not the cause of the murders.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello

The main problem I have with Kosminski (or anyone like him) is that he was known to be mentally unbalanced. His odd behaviour (picking up bread from the ground and eating it, possibly muttering to himself etc) would attract attention. Gossip travels surprisingly quickly, the grapevine being at least as fast as the internet, so word would have got round. He was exactly the kind of person who was suspected to be the killer. Why then would a potential JTR victim allow herself to be taken into a lonely spot with such a man?

Best wishes
C4

Hello C4

If Kozminski is the man described by Cox, he certainly wasn't picking up bread from the gutter at this time.1888. He was going for long walks abroad..

He was able to give evidence in Dec 1889 at his trial (Walking the dog) and say 'Kozminski is hard to spell'

Schizophrenia is a cyclicur illness hitting the suffer in waves that slow get stronger typically lasting 18-22 weeks..about the length of the 'autumn of terror'

Kozminski was admitted to the workhouse in July 1890 and released presumably because they didn't think he was mad..

We have know idea how long he had been 'eating from the gutter' in Feb 1891... He wasn't considered incurable until his transfer Leavesdon 1894

Trust that helps

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hello

The main problem I have with Kosminski (or anyone like him) is that he was known to be mentally unbalanced. His odd behaviour (picking up bread from the ground and eating it, possibly muttering to himself etc) would attract attention. Gossip travels surprisingly quickly, the grapevine being at least as fast as the internet, so word would have got round. He was exactly the kind of person who was suspected to be the killer. Why then would a potential JTR victim allow herself to be taken into a lonely spot with such a man?

Best wishes
C4

Hi Gwyneth,

In 1888 Aaron Kozminski picking up bread from the ground and eating it, possibly muttering to himself? In 1891 he did it, maybe end of 1890 but 1888?

No one really knows...

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

You've lost me...who is Happenstance?

A fictional person who found a witness by chance. In Germany we say "Kommissar Zufall". You come across an evidence by chance. For example, a man is talking to a Policeman in plain clothes about the Ripper murders when he is a witness in another case.

[curious4]

Hello

The main problem I have with Kosminski (or anyone like him) is that he was known to be mentally unbalanced. His odd behaviour (picking up bread from the ground and eating it, possibly muttering to himself etc) would attract attention. Gossip travels surprisingly quickly, the grapevine being at least as fast as the internet, so word would have got round. He was exactly the kind of person who was suspected to be the killer. Why then would a potential JTR victim allow herself to be taken into a lonely spot with such a man?

Best wishes
C4

[Jeff Leahy]

Swanson:

"And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London"

"after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home" ... and he knew he was identified

I know it is crazy but everytime when I read these lines I think Swanson talking about two incidents.

The first: 9 November 1888 when the witness had a good view of "Kosminski". And Kosminski knew he was identified and no other murder of this kind took place because "Kosminski" stopped killing woman after he was seen by a witness.

The second: In the second half of 1890 the police had found this witness (by detective-sergeant Happenstance, however...) and an ID took place at the Seaside Home.

The Seaside Home witness? In this case it must have been the Millers Court.

You've lost me...who is Happenstance?

[S.Brett]

So everything rests on an unknown witness in Millers Court being found after Abberline is transferred

Swanson:

"And after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London"

"after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home" ... and he knew he was identified

I know it is crazy but everytime when I read these lines I think Swanson talking about two incidents.

The first: 9 November 1888 when the witness had a good view of "Kosminski". And Kosminski knew he was identified and no other murder of this kind took place because "Kosminski" stopped killing woman after he was seen by a witness.

The second: In the second half of 1890 the police had found this witness (by detective-sergeant Happenstance, however...) and an ID took place at the Seaside Home.

The Seaside Home witness? In this case it must have been the Millers Court.

[Jeff Leahy]

She is an eyecatcher! Everyone remembers her...

We should not overstate the witness descriptions. It is difficult. Schwartz could have seen a man, 23 years of age with black curly hair, small moustache, a violet scarf and a cap with peak, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket. But possibly he could not described the man in detail due to the darkness. He stated age 30, dark hair, small brown moustache, dark jacket and trousers and black cap with peak. But he could have seen the Ripper, the same man Lawende saw. 80:20 for Schwartz, I am still not completely sure.

Yeah I think this is the crux of the Schwartz debate for me.

Clearly there was lighting in Berner street it was a comparatively respectable area.. but witnesses describe the ally as very dark. Diemschutz doesn't see the body until he strikes a match.

Schwartz is behind BSM on the whole journey down Berner street and crosses the road when an altercation takes place.. I don't think he sees BSM's face until he turns and shouts 'Lipski' and schwartz sees Pipemen and starts to run..a spilt second

So schwarz fails to ID the suspect because he doesn't have a good view of his face and his description is of the mans back/shoulders

And if I were Abberline looking at a failed ID by Schwartz I'd be sceptical about Andersons and Swanson claim also 1903: ' i know that it has been stated in several quarters that jtr was a man who died in a lunatic asylum a few years ago, but there is nothing at all of a tangible nature to support such a theory'

Note that Aubergine is immediately aware of the lunatic in Asylum theory, which he dismiss, even though he is in-touch with his old department (i am and always have been), and only mentions Druit when pushed by the reporter

In other words Aubergine (bloody auto spell check!!!)is aware of the story around his old department that a lunatic was caged and died shortly afterwards (Leavesdon 1894) and that he does not believe this man to have been Jack the Ripper..

I believe thats because there was also reason to doubt Kozminski...like a failed ID at the time and that Abberline believes this is the ID they are talking about as he leaves in May 1889, long before the Seaside Home ID end 1890.

So everything rests on an unknown witness in Millers Court being found after Abberline is transferred

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Yep its very difficult to access age in the dark..

Your mates looking good however

Yours Jeff

She is an eyecatcher! Everyone remembers her...

We should not overstate the witness descriptions. It is difficult. Schwartz could have seen a man, 23 years of age with black curly hair, small moustache, a violet scarf and a cap with peak, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket. But possibly he could not described the man in detail due to the darkness. He stated age 30, dark hair, small brown moustache, dark jacket and trousers and black cap with peak. But he could have seen the Ripper, the same man Lawende saw. 80:20 for Schwartz, I am still not completely sure.

[Jeff Leahy]

22 & 28 ?

In September 2011 the man was 38 years old.

Yep its very difficult to access age in the dark..

Your mates looking good however

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Imagine that Morris Lubnowski had a little shop (for a short time as well as Woolf Abrahams, Jacob Cohen and Davies) where Aaron Kozminski worked and lived, alone during the night and on weekends and holidays, he might be the man Cox watched.

Perhaps this was the "Leather Apron" Shop, the shop of "The Mad Snob" with closely clipped black hair... with short, black, curly hair described by Cox...?

[S.Brett]

Guess would be 28 years old..

22?

22 & 28 ?

In September 2011 the man was 38 years old.