Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again)

And THAT because she was lain gently down.

Cheers.
LC

Yeah I dont disagree with that, i'm not sure gentle is the correct word, because i believe he still had hold of the scarf around her throat

Can i plumb for SMOOTHLY down?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

"It's my opinion that Swanson was the main source for the Kozminski investigation which was unto March 1889."

We disagree. I believe it was Mac.

It was all done and dusted by the time Mac even joined the force..Abberline had been transferred... And the file placed in the store room

And thats where MacNaughten found the dusty old file on Kozminski in 1894.

MacNAughten had already formed his opinion on Druit some time early at a gentleman club, probably having met Farquharsen...thats why Mac makes basic errors on Druit...he was working from memory..

However the info on Kozminski was excellent and in front of him...all those inconclusive reports put together by Cox and Sagar, so MacNaughten still plumbs for Druit

" . . . The Crawford letter . . ."
But what is the evidence that ties this letter to Kosminski? A slightly better case could be made for Druitt.
Cheers.LC

I've never seen or heard a better case made for Druit... And why would Anderson keep only one letter relating to the whitechapel murders if it didn't have some significance to him?

The woman in question was the woman attacked in Bricklane on 22 Nov 1888, a woman who refused to give evidence because she didn't want to implicate her brother... On his later release from the asylum she became scared for her expected twins and changed her mind, agreeing to testify

'He threatened the life of his sister'

The meeting happened between August 1889 (When Anderson still had no clue) and July 1890 (When Anderson fell out with Monroe) and at some time a new witness was discovered and bought forward...a witness from Millers Court, a witness discovered after Abberlines transfer

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

aware

Hello Jon. Thanks.

""Their suspicions"? You mean Leman Street?"

Quite.

"How do you interpret Swanson's line:

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it....""

1. Swanson was aware of their doubts.

2. He did not share them.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

long time

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

"Isn't that what Karsten is speculating? that he was in custody and Schwartz for some reason failed to ID him?"

Possibly. But the problem is that Kosminski was out for as long as he was.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

gently Bentley

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

" . . .all we can say is she did keep hold of them because they were in her hand . . ."

And THAT because she was lain gently down.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

context

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"The annotations need to be considered in context."

Absolutely.

"It's my opinion that Swanson was the main source for the Kozminski investigation which was unto March 1889."

We disagree. I believe it was Mac.

" . . . The Crawford letter . . ."

But what is the evidence that ties this letter to Kosminski? A slightly better case could be made for Druitt.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

convinced

Hello Karsten. Thanks.

"I am convinced that Lawende saw the Ripper."

OK. But perhaps that was more than HE was convinced of.

And I agree about the referent of that first tale being Druitt.

Of course, if THAT'S the case, Kosminski was innocent--and conversely.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Ok...on the first point, you recognized that Fannys sighting of a man and a bag is corroborated when Leon and his translator (Wess again?) come in to the station on Tuesday night, but you didnt recognize that Fannys "off and on" comment suggests that she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50 when she was at it continously until 1am. It obviously suggests that she was at her door before 12:50...and saw no-one but the young couple. So:

-she did not see or hear anyone in Israels story, including Liz
-she did not see Louis arriving during at all during the last 10 minutes of the hour

The problem is we have no way of knowing what she means by off and on?

We know that other women in the area were stood at their doors, so watching the world go by and chatting and gossip were the way of life... but all we know for certain is she was stood at her door for 10 minutes (And this really is a figure of speech rather than an exactitude) when Gouldstain past shortly before one o'clock.

However Diemschtz timed his entry to berner street by the clock as he turned into Berner street and you keep forgetting to add the time it takes from the top of Berner street Commercial street (Which I've walked and time on many an occasion) down to dutifully yard..(Does anyone else have problem with the site spell check auto magically changing the words?)

So everything fits.

Those facts imply that Liz Stride was off the street sometime between 12:35-(smiths sighting) and that Louis Diemshutz lied when he stated he was sure he arrived at 1am.

But Brown saw her with a man at 12.45 am?

Second point..Eagle would certainly have seen a dead woman lying across the very route he took when entering the yard, so why wasnt he sure that there was one there or not?

Because she wasn't there? You can't be certain about not seeing something only about have seen something... It was dark

As Ive mentioned ad infinitum here to an audience that seems to prefer to read into the evidence rather than simply read it and understand it....3 witnesses, 2 club members and 1 outside source, stated within one hour of the murder when questioned that they were alerted to the body at or before 12:45. 1 club witness even says that Louis sent him out alone for help and that he returned just after 1......do you recall Louis ever stating that? Do you recall any mention by Louis of someone sent for help other than Eagle, Louis himself and "Issac[s]"?

A lot of people in the club who had been singing and presumably drinking?

Schwartz and Deimschutz timed their entry into Berner street by the clock.

Fanny saw no-one but the young couple, Brown saw the young couple. Seems to me that its very possible that Liz Stride was off the street after PC Smith left, making Israel a liar, Louis a liar and Eagle a liar.

I think it unlikely anyone lied.. Most people apart from the odd sociopath tend to tell the truth, or at least what they perceive to be the truth.

Louis and Eagle had a lot to lose if the club was suspected and closed during an investigation, people wanted it closed anyway...and Israel offers what amounts to be a fabulous story that directly benefits the 2 men.

Cheers

The problem with telling lies is they tend to unravel. I'm not saying its impossible, just that it seems unlikely to me, especially as my version of events fit what everyone says without requiring anyone lying.. Just a few club members getting excited and making poor estimates of time

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

Fanny saw no-one but the young couple, Brown saw the young couple.

Hi Michael.

This other couple, at least according to the female, had left Berner St before the incident. So it is quite possible, even likely in my opinion, that Mrs Mortimer was away from her door for considerably longer than she estimated. Which means she simply missed most of the activity.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff,

I snipped a few points that I also disagree with, but left the focus of your comments on the following...

-Fanny's story is cooberated by Goldstein. He passes through Berner street shortly before 1 am. Fanny saw him and he must have recognised his description and come forward.

-Eagle might have missed Strides body but it seems unlikely

Yours Jeff

Ok...on the first point, you recognized that Fannys sighting of a man and a bag is corroborated when Leon and his translator (Wess again?) come in to the station on Tuesday night, but you didnt recognize that Fannys "off and on" comment suggests that she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50 when she was at it continously until 1am. It obviously suggests that she was at her door before 12:50...and saw no-one but the young couple. So:

-she did not see or hear anyone in Israels story, including Liz
-she did not see Louis arriving during at all during the last 10 minutes of the hour

Those facts imply that Liz Stride was off the street sometime between 12:35-(smiths sighting) and that Louis Diemshutz lied when he stated he was sure he arrived at 1am.

Second point..Eagle would certainly have seen a dead woman lying across the very route he took when entering the yard, so why wasnt he sure that there was one there or not?

As Ive mentioned ad infinitum here to an audience that seems to prefer to read into the evidence rather than simply read it and understand it....3 witnesses, 2 club members and 1 outside source, stated within one hour of the murder when questioned that they were alerted to the body at or before 12:45. 1 club witness even says that Louis sent him out alone for help and that he returned just after 1......do you recall Louis ever stating that? Do you recall any mention by Louis of someone sent for help other than Eagle, Louis himself and "Issac[s]"?

Fanny saw no-one but the young couple, Brown saw the young couple. Seems to me that its very possible that Liz Stride was off the street after PC Smith left, making Israel a liar, Louis a liar and Eagle a liar.

Louis and Eagle had a lot to lose if the club was suspected and closed during an investigation, people wanted it closed anyway...and Israel offers what amounts to be a fabulous story that directly benefits the 2 men.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Slight problem--in his report, Swanson seems fully aware of their suspicions.

But, perhaps their subterfuge were so expert at Leman that they deceived EVEN Swanson?

Hello Lynn.

"Their suspicions"? you mean Leman Street?

How do you interpret Swanson's line:

"If Schwartz is to be believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it...."

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

You have to wonder if somebody on the police force let slip that there were difficulties in assessing the reliability of Schwartz's story because of the difficulties encountered with the translation process and that this in effect is what the press was referring to.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

With such a brief and rather vague reference to Leman St. we cannot be sure what their source was.
The Star must presumably have known that Scotland Yard was heading this investigation, so by referring to Leman Street station what exactly are they saying?
Reid was the head of the local CID for H Div. based at Leman Street, but Reid did not interrogate Schwartz, that was left to Abberline.

Perhaps the most we can take from that paragraph is a suggestion of some dissent among lower level officers who may or may not have been fully briefed on the investigation of Schwartz's story.
That is assuming, there is any accuracy to the article by the Star.

Officers at Leman Street do not write summary reports of the case to the Home Office, neither to they release descriptions of wanted suspects to the press.
Those responsibilities are left with Scotland Yard, who we must assume have a wider view of the investigation that most of the officers at Leman Street.

[S.Brett]

Morning Jeff,

Isn't that what Karsten is speculating? that he was in custody and Schwartz for some reason failed to ID him?

There is a chance that he was in custody from after the Double Event to shortly before the Kelly murder took place. But we do not know...

There is also a chance that he was in custody after the Kelly murder until Cox (City Police) started the surveillance. Again pure speculation...

Morning Karsten.. in the back of my mind wasn't there a reference to a lunatic jumping in the river... Is it possible this is not Simm's confusing Koz and Druit?

If all three suspects (Druitt, Kosminski, Ostrog) were in an asylum before the Whitechapel murders occurred, I guess, there is no confusion...

Yeah it is going a little off topic.. But I've always thought that Schwartz must have been Swansons witness, your posts have certainly changed my mind on that subject... Whether Schwartz saw Jack or not, i think your correct that Swansons witness was someone else

I'm interested in the City PC witness..perhaps the next discussion?

Has there ever been discussion on an unknown Millers court witness and when and how he might have come to police notice?

Yes, the next discussion...

For a long time I thought that only Schwartz or Lawende are possible for the Seaside Home witness. After revaluating the sources I saw things in a new light.

-The witness-

For example: Astrakhan- Man! Possibly he was Jewish and if he was not the murderer of Kelly he might have been this witness. Imagine that this man returned to Kelly´s home because he had forgotten something in her room it would have been possible that he saw "Kosminski" with her...

Another example is one of the three carmen in Dorset Street. But I want to stop now...

I think that Schwartz spoke the truth. However, I think we rate the witness descriptions too high. The images I have posted, what is the age of the man?

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Sims (Dagonet):

"Frequently this outburst - or, rather, this recurrence - of mania means a murder - sometimes a massacre. The homicidal maniac who shocked the World as Jack the Ripper had been once - I am not sure that it was not twice - in a lunatic asylum. At the time his dead body was found in the Thames, his friends, who were terrified at his disappearance from their midst, were endeavouring to have him found and placed under restraint again."

But I think we can count on Jonathan Hainsworth (Case solved 1891) who makes clear that Sims talked about Druitt.

Griffiths:

"One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum."

The Polish Jew is "Kosminski" and "known lunatic" and "was at large" could mean he also was in an asylum before the Whitechapel Murders took place..

Morning Karsten.. in the back of my mind wasn't there a reference to a lunatic jumping in the river... Is it possible this is not Simm's confusing Koz and Druit?

Lynn, I will stop posting about the wrong topic (Kosminski). .

Yeah it is going a little off topic.. But I've always thought that Schwartz must have been Swansons witness, your posts have certainly changed my mind on that subject... Whether Schwartz saw Jack or not, i think your correct that Swansons witness was someone else

I'm interested in the City PC witness..perhaps the next discussion?

Has there ever been discussion on an unknown Millers court witness and when and how he might have come to police notice?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Karsten. Thanks. I appreciate the photos.

The quotation seems not to indicate that the suspect was in custody until after having some time elapsed AFTER the killings.

What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

Isn't that what Karsten is speculating? that he was in custody and Schwartz for some reason failed to ID him?

Why else would Macnaughten think Druit a better suspect than kozminski

There were many circumstances...but not good enough

Yours Jeff