An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[GBinOz]

One of the issues regarding Smith is that he states 12.30am/12.35am or anytime between.

He himself says his beat takes 25 to 30 minutes.

And so based on his own words and timing; he should have been walking through Berner Street again at some point between 12.55am-1.05am.

Now unless BS man was the killer and the murder occurred nearer to 12.45am, then Pc Smith should have been walking along Berner Street right in the middle of the most likely kill time; 12.55-1am

So, the question is; where was he?

If Mortimer did indeed hear measured tramping of a policeman's footsteps, then It may have been Smith heading along Berner Street.
If that's the case and Mortimer then goes to her door, then could Goldstein have witnessed Smith walking North towards him?

Could Smith have cut Stride's throat and then headed north just as Goldstein was heading towards him?
Smith then darts west through the covered alleyway between 30 and 32 Berner Street, but not before Goldstein sees the officer with bloodied hands. He then walks hurriedly past Mortimer just as she opens her door and she sees him just moments after the murder.

Pc Smith then heads towards Backchurch Lane, disposing of the knife and finding a water source to wash his hands. He then rejoins his beat, but is nowhere near where he is meant to be.

That's why he's one of the last people to arrive at the murders scene, despite it being his beat.


Food for thought.

I don't think so. What possible motive could Smith have had to murder Stride. I suggest that you might consider whether the footsteps that Mortimer heard were that of Goldstein, observed heading north by Mrs Artisan. A short appearance at The Spectacle Cafe to establish an alibi and a return back on Berner St to be observed by Mortimer glancing at the Yard on his way home.

[GBinOz]

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

I suspect you have lost the plot here Andrew. Smith can indeed be at the top of Berner St at an estimated police time, while Diemshitz is there on on a completely different clock time, such as the Harris clock. Hershburg and Kozebrodsky appear to be yet on another time - possibly that of the clock in the club that Eagle testified he didn't observe. Lamb has Eagle and Kozebrodsky reporting the murder before 1AM (police time), verified by the fixed point officer still being on duty.

It is interesting that you should promote Eagle as an example of your times theory. You quote him as saying:
Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.
What is this "time I left home to return to the club"? Is this some time before the meeting? That doesn't seem likely as he says "return to the club". Here is his reported statement to The Evening News dated 1 Oct:
"I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets.".

It could be noted that here he doesn't mention calling in at his home on the the way back, and his recollection of his departure time is 12 midnight rather than 11:30 to 11:45. Either Eagle is very poor at estimations of time intervals and recollections of his actions on that night, or he is covering up.

[The Rookie Detective]

One of the issues regarding Smith is that he states 12.30am/12.35am or anytime between.

He himself says his beat takes 25 to 30 minutes.

And so based on his own words and timing; he should have been walking through Berner Street again at some point between 12.55am-1.05am.

Now unless BS man was the killer and the murder occurred nearer to 12.45am, then Pc Smith should have been walking along Berner Street right in the middle of the most likely kill time; 12.55-1am

So, the question is; where was he?

If Mortimer did indeed hear measured tramping of a policeman's footsteps, then It may have been Smith heading along Berner Street.
If that's the case and Mortimer then goes to her door, then could Goldstein have witnessed Smith walking North towards him?

Could Smith have cut Stride's throat and then headed north just as Goldstein was heading towards him?
Smith then darts west through the covered alleyway between 30 and 32 Berner Street, but not before Goldstein sees the officer with bloodied hands. He then walks hurriedly past Mortimer just as she opens her door and she sees him just moments after the murder.

Pc Smith then heads towards Backchurch Lane, disposing of the knife and finding a water source to wash his hands. He then rejoins his beat, but is nowhere near where he is meant to be.

That's why he's one of the last people to arrive at the murders scene, despite it being his beat.


Food for thought.

[The Rookie Detective]

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

Brilliant post, just brilliant!

[Herlock Sholmes]

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

They are all in the same time but some are taking their time estimates from different sources. And some would be based on estimating a length of time between the event and when they had last seen a clock.

You told me ages ago that you don’t think that times should be taken literally (if it was Michael and not you then I apologise) but you clearly do….when it suits you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

And he clearly wasn’t.

Diemschitz found the body.
Lamb arrived with Eagle.
Smith arrived.

Thats what happened…in that order. Insert whatever times you want. I’ve inserted mine. It fits. No problem at all.

All that has to be considered is that the clock that led Smith to believe that it was 1.00 wasn’t in line with the one that Diemschitz used. This isn’t science-fiction so I really can’t see why it causes you such problems.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A timely reminder of McKay's dissertation Herlock. He also said that police time was the most likely to be GMT, but of course there is still some error introduced as the beat progresses.

However one clock, such as the clock in the club, might be 10 minutes slow, and another clock, such as the Tobacconist clock might be ten minutes fast. Both clocks considered good for the time, but differing by 20 minutes from each other, resulting in a unique perception by each person as to what time things happened, such as Hershburg, Kozebrodsky and Diemshitz.
Then come the errors in estimating time since having last seen a clock of indeterminate accuracy. Eagle didn't know what time he left the club to take his lady home - estimating between 11:30 and 11:45. A half hour return trip would see him back at the yard between 12 midnight and 12:15, so we can't confidently assume that he was anywhere near the Schwartz incident. Brown and Spooner were also guessing times. We can't know if Mortimer (et al) had looked at a clock and if so, how divergent those clocks may have been from GMT or from any other clock.

Hence the suggestion that sequences may be of more use than timelines, but they still involve a great deal of speculation and supposition.

Couldn’t agree more George. Look at the estimated times. Lamb, Smith (first pass at least) Spooner, Kozebrodsky, Heschberg, Lave, Eagle. All estimates. Then we have Mortimer…it’s impossible to deduce from the evidence when she was or wasn’t on her doorstep. We don’t know how Schwartz arrived at his 12.45 time. We don’t know how Brown’s clock would have synchronised with other clocks. Even Blackwell’s watch could have been a minute or two out. So much can never be known accurately when it comes to exact times or the exact order of things. All that we can do is suggest how things might have ‘panned out.’ Many of us have attempted scenarios. Any one of us might have got it right. Maybe none of us have yet. But what we certainly can say is that there is nothing about the evidence as we know it precludes what is known as the ‘official’ version.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.



Your timeline does not compute.

You must do this deliberately Andrew because there can be no alternative explanation. Time and time again you do it. We keep talking about clocks being poorly synchronised so that we cannot assume all times are accurate but whenever it’s convenient to do so you impose this ‘all times are set-in-stone’ ruling. This kind of thing is what makes discussion with you so irritating and it’s why I say that you are always looking at situations with an attitude of “there must be something dodgy going on here…I just have to find it.”

My timeline has an estimated time of his passing at 12.36. He said that his beat took twenty five to thirty minutes..I’ve gone for thirty. This has him back at the corner of Commercial Road and Berner Street at approximately 1.06 but he said that it was 1.00. Answer..the clock that he used for his time was around 6 minutes or so slow.

“At 1 o’clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of “Police.” When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H.”

If Diemschitz was correct then Smith must have been there after 1.00. Ok, you might ask why I allow Diemschitz time to be 1.00 but not Smith’s? I’m not ‘favouring’ one over the other I’m simply stating that a difference between their two clocks explains the discrepancy. After all, the evidence points to Diemschitz discovering the body at around 1.00 but time has to be allowed for witness to find Lamb and return with him because Lamb is already there by the time that Smith gets there. Also we have Lamb saying:

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.”

Yes, The Telegraph says “just before 1.00,” the other papers say “about 1.00.”

My timeline ‘computes.’

[NotBlamedForNothing]

According to whose clock?

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A timely reminder of McKay's dissertation Herlock. He also said that police time was the most likely to be GMT, but of course there is still some error introduced as the beat progresses.

However one clock, such as the clock in the club, might be 10 minutes slow, and another clock, such as the Tobacconist clock might be ten minutes fast. Both clocks considered good for the time, but differing by 20 minutes from each other, resulting in a unique perception by each person as to what time things happened, such as Hershburg, Kozebrodsky and Diemshitz.
Then come the errors in estimating time since having last seen a clock of indeterminate accuracy. Eagle didn't know what time he left the club to take his lady home - estimating between 11:30 and 11:45. A half hour return trip would see him back at the yard between 12 midnight and 12:15, so we can't confidently assume that he was anywhere near the Schwartz incident. Brown and Spooner were also guessing times. We can't know if Mortimer (et al) had looked at a clock and if so, how divergent those clocks may have been from GMT or from any other clock.

Hence the suggestion that sequences may be of more use than timelines, but they still involve a great deal of speculation and supposition.

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

[GBinOz]

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.
Diemschitz arrives 1.00

Your timeline does not compute.

According to whose clock?

[GBinOz]

When we are discussing all things related to the Berner Street murder, where times are the main source of problem in getting any idea of the order of events I think it’s worth reminding ourselves of a couple of things. Firstly, the piece on timekeeping by Chris McKay which was initially posted by George some time ago. I’ll highlight just one sentence:

“So, if the working man's watch or clock was within 10 minutes of true time, I would think that good for the 1880s.”

A timely reminder of McKay's dissertation Herlock. He also said that police time was the most likely to be GMT, but of course there is still some error introduced as the beat progresses.

However one clock, such as the clock in the club, might be 10 minutes slow, and another clock, such as the Tobacconist clock might be ten minutes fast. Both clocks considered good for the time, but differing by 20 minutes from each other, resulting in a unique perception by each person as to what time things happened, such as Hershburg, Kozebrodsky and Diemshitz.
Then come the errors in estimating time since having last seen a clock of indeterminate accuracy. Eagle didn't know what time he left the club to take his lady home - estimating between 11:30 and 11:45. A half hour return trip would see him back at the yard between 12 midnight and 12:15, so we can't confidently assume that he was anywhere near the Schwartz incident. Brown and Spooner were also guessing times. We can't know if Mortimer (et al) had looked at a clock and if so, how divergent those clocks may have been from GMT or from any other clock.

Hence the suggestion that sequences may be of more use than timelines, but they still involve a great deal of speculation and supposition.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Smith passes at 12.36

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

Diemschitz arrives 1.00

Your timeline does not compute.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well NotBlamed I am unable to speculate on motives or what exactly happened. We all have to slowly put the jigsaw together. I feel some degree of confidence in this approach. If we get enough pieces the gaps and speculation will pull together and may disappear. We are fortunate with the Stride murder in that we have lots of statements and witnesses. I agree with others the order of events is more important than timing. If we are very very lucky in putting an order of events together then motive and what happened will become obvious. I think we have more chance with this killing than the others.

The notion that we should prioritise the order of events over timings, is one those ideas that sounds good but has little practical value. The timings we have from most witnesses are both uncertain, and tight with respect to other witnesses. Attempting to order events without getting 'hung-up' on timings, is a nonsense. There can be no agreement on the chronology of events, if there is no fairly precise agreement on timings, which there is not. Furthermore, the events over timings philosophy ignores that we do not even agree on what the events were. For examples, there have always been Schwartz sceptics, and it is not certain if or who or when a man was seen walking north, carrying a black bag.

I would suggest going back to TRD's questions in #495. Were there 2 couples or 3, in the vicinity of the murder? If 2, who does Brown's couple consist of? Focusing on that would seem to have more value than trotting out yet another ordering of events. What, by the way, do you think has triggered the sudden interest in that subject? I would suggest that posts #498-500 have a lot to do with it. When we accept that Brown probably did see Stride, it becomes very difficult to work out when the Schwartz stuff could have happened and not be seen by Mortimer or Eagle. This problem engages minds.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think I like this one better; times added too


Smith passes at 12.36

Lave looks onto the street 12.36.30 and goes back inside.

Eagle returns 12.37

Fanny goes onto her doorstep 12.37.30 (hears Eagle and thinks he’s a Constable)

Goldstein passes 12.45

Brown goes for supper (Fanny doesn’t see him - only needs 2-3 seconds of her looking the other way) (maybe she saw him but didn’t mention him?) 12.46

Brown returns and sees couple (again Fanny doesn’t see him/ or didn’t mention him?) 12.50

Fanny goes indoors 12.52

Stride arrives at the gateway 12.53

Incident with BS man occurs 12.54

Stride is killed/ BS man flees 12.55

Diemschitz arrives 1.00


This gives Fanny around 14.5 minutes on her doorstep which she probably felt was longer. Especially if she believed that Eagle was Smith passing at close on 12.30.

The Schwartz incident occurs 10 minutes later that stated.