An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another general point worth making in my opinion is on the word ‘convenient’ or ‘conveniently.’ This is often used when a series of events is suggested where one person just misses seeing another. “How convenient.” As if this is a deliberate example of manoeuvring witnesses into place like pieces on a chess board.

If we could look down on virtually any street at any time we would see things like this happening in real life. If we looked down on my street you would see Mr X passing and turning the corner just before Mrs Y exited her front door. Then five seconds after Mrs Y turns left out of her front door Mrs Z exits her front door two doors down from Mrs Y and neither see or hear each other.

Stuff like this happens every day but if we were looking down on this scene no one would say “well that was convenient.” And yet when a scenario is suggested that has someone narrowly missing someone the the word ‘convenient’ is wheeled out.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NotBlamed. Diemschutz statement clearly states that he found Spooner around the Beehive Grove Street area. He does not mention Spooners girlfriend. Spooner is very close to where he lived. Perhaps his girlfriend had gone home a little earlier. I dont know. As for BSM. I have no reason to question Schwartz at the moment. Might have been mistaken what he saw but i cant see why BSM didn't exist at the moment.

So, we are agreed that Spooner is where he said he was, give or take a few yards. The only question then, is what became of the lady friend. It's true that Diemschitz does not mention her, and that is a little odd. Perhaps in stopping the two men running back along the street, Spooner became physically separated from her, and Diemschitz didn't notice her. Diemschitz did have his mind on other things and perhaps was a bit tunnel-visioned due to stress.

Perhaps Spooner threw his front door key to the lady, just as he ran off. Perhaps she followed him to Berner St but walked rather than ran. The latter would explain Mortimer's conversation with the mysterious board school couple. I say mysterious because the couple then seem to disappear - we never hear of them again.

We also seem to agree that BS Man has no apparent motive for killing, and so why suppose he did? If you don't doubt Schwartz, can you explain the killer's arrival on the scene?

[The Rookie Detective]

As Herlock mentions; it's the chronology of events that actually matters far more than any given timings.

On that basis; what can we sure of in terms of chronology of events?

Well if we choose to believe each witness at face value, then we know that...

In no particular order...


Goldstein walked down Berner St at the same time that Mortimer was at her door and saw him do so.

Eagle came back to the club and walked into the yard when Mortimer was not at her door, because she never saw anyone enter the yard.

Pc Smith saw Stride talking with Parcelman across the road from the club. Mortimer was not at her door.

Lave came out of the yard, went as far as the street and then reentered through the yard. Mortimer was not at her door.

Schwartz saw Bs man and Pipeman in Berner Street and Stride in the yard. Mortimer was not at her door. PC Smith was not in Berner Street.

Brown saw a couple on the corner by the board school on his way back from the chandler's shop. The couple hadn't been there 5 minutes earlier when he was on his way to the shop. PC Smith isn't present, Schwartz isn't present. Goldstein isn't present.

Schwartz, Bs Man, Pipeman, Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith, Letchford were not present for the duration of time Mortimer was at her door.

When Eagle returned to the club he eludes to other people having been in the street, but that he takes no notice of them. Stride was not standing in the yard when Eagle entered it.

Stride was not standing in the yard when Lave walked into it.

There are countless more, but for now let's ask the question...

Of the above, what is the correct chronological order of events?

Forget timings entirely, its just the correct sequence that matters in this instance.

[New Waterloo]

Well NotBlamed I am unable to speculate on motives or what exactly happened. We all have to slowly put the jigsaw together. I feel some degree of confidence in this approach. If we get enough pieces the gaps and speculation will pull together and may disappear. We are fortunate with the Stride murder in that we have lots of statements and witnesses. I agree with others the order of events is more important than timing. If we are very very lucky in putting an order of events together then motive and what happened will become obvious. I think we have more chance with this killing than the others.

[Lewis C]

As Herlock mentions; it's the chronology of events that actually matters far more than any given timings.

On that basis; what can we sure of in terms of chronology of events?

Well if we choose to believe each witness at face value, then we know that...

In no particular order...


Goldstein walked down Berner St at the same time that Mortimer was at her door and saw him do so.

Eagle came back to the club and walked into the yard when Mortimer was not at her door, because she never saw anyone enter the yard.

Pc Smith saw Stride talking with Parcelman across the road from the club. Mortimer was not at her door.

Lave came out of the yard, went as far as the street and then reentered through the yard. Mortimer was not at her door.

Schwartz saw Bs man and Pipeman in Berner Street and Stride in the yard. Mortimer was not at her door. PC Smith was not in Berner Street.

Brown saw a couple on the corner by the board school on his way back from the chandler's shop. The couple hadn't been there 5 minutes earlier when he was on his way to the shop. PC Smith isn't present, Schwartz isn't present. Goldstein isn't present.

Schwartz, Bs Man, Pipeman, Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith, Letchford were not present for the duration of time Mortimer was at her door.

When Eagle returned to the club he eludes to other people having been in the street, but that he takes no notice of them. Stride was not standing in the yard when Eagle entered it.

Stride was not standing in the yard when Lave walked into it.

There are countless more, but for now let's ask the question...

Of the above, what is the correct chronological order of events?

Forget timings entirely, its just the correct sequence that matters in this instance.

Hi RD,

I'm wondering if there is anything in the above that we can be certain or close to certain about what order it happened in. What I feel most confident in asserting is that Smith passed and Eagle returned before Fanny was at her door and before Brown went out, but even that I'm not certain about.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Smith passes and sees Stride and Parcelman in an otherwise empty street.

Lave is in the yard for air.

Stride and Parcelman move on and go their separate ways.

Lave comes to the street, notices nothing, goes back inside side.

Eagle returns and at around the same time that Brown goes for his supper.

Stride returns and stops the talk to Overcoat man just around the corner in Fairclough Street.

Brown passes them and hears her say ‘not tonight’; they separate.

Stride goes into Berner Street just as BS man does from the other end followed by Schwartz.

Stride ducks into the gateway (to wait for someone or to hide from BS man)

BS man passes Fanny’s door. She thinks that it’s a Constable (she assumes this because she hadn’t heard Smith pass earlier)

The incident occurs. Schwartz and Pipeman leave. BS man kills Stride and leaves.

It’s a minute or two since she heard the footsteps and Fanny goes onto her doorstep.

Some time before 1.00 Goldstein passes.

She goes back inside just before 1.00.

As she thinks that the footsteps were a Constable she assumes that she was on her doorstep from 12.30 or 12.35 until just before 1.00 (explaining her ‘most of the time between..)

Diemschitz arrives at around 1.00


Or alternately..


The incident occurs. Schwartz and Pipeman leave.

Fanny comes onto her doorstep.

BS man are in the passageway talking..

Goldstein passes and looks toward the club because he thinks that he hears someone inside the gateway.

Fanny goes back inside.

BS man kills Stride and leaves.

Diemschitz arrives at around 1.00

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think I like this one better; times added too


Smith passes at 12.36

Lave looks onto the street 12.36.30 and goes back inside.

Eagle returns 12.37

Fanny goes onto her doorstep 12.37.30 (hears Eagle and thinks he’s a Constable)

Goldstein passes 12.45

Brown goes for supper (Fanny doesn’t see him - only needs 2-3 seconds of her looking the other way) (maybe she saw him but didn’t mention him?) 12.46

Brown returns and sees couple (again Fanny doesn’t see him/ or didn’t mention him?) 12.50

Fanny goes indoors 12.52

Stride arrives at the gateway 12.53

Incident with BS man occurs 12.54

Stride is killed/ BS man flees 12.55

Diemschitz arrives 1.00


This gives Fanny around 14.5 minutes on her doorstep which she probably felt was longer. Especially if she believed that Eagle was Smith passing at close on 12.30.

The Schwartz incident occurs 10 minutes later that stated.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well NotBlamed I am unable to speculate on motives or what exactly happened. We all have to slowly put the jigsaw together. I feel some degree of confidence in this approach. If we get enough pieces the gaps and speculation will pull together and may disappear. We are fortunate with the Stride murder in that we have lots of statements and witnesses. I agree with others the order of events is more important than timing. If we are very very lucky in putting an order of events together then motive and what happened will become obvious. I think we have more chance with this killing than the others.

The notion that we should prioritise the order of events over timings, is one those ideas that sounds good but has little practical value. The timings we have from most witnesses are both uncertain, and tight with respect to other witnesses. Attempting to order events without getting 'hung-up' on timings, is a nonsense. There can be no agreement on the chronology of events, if there is no fairly precise agreement on timings, which there is not. Furthermore, the events over timings philosophy ignores that we do not even agree on what the events were. For examples, there have always been Schwartz sceptics, and it is not certain if or who or when a man was seen walking north, carrying a black bag.

I would suggest going back to TRD's questions in #495. Were there 2 couples or 3, in the vicinity of the murder? If 2, who does Brown's couple consist of? Focusing on that would seem to have more value than trotting out yet another ordering of events. What, by the way, do you think has triggered the sudden interest in that subject? I would suggest that posts #498-500 have a lot to do with it. When we accept that Brown probably did see Stride, it becomes very difficult to work out when the Schwartz stuff could have happened and not be seen by Mortimer or Eagle. This problem engages minds.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Smith passes at 12.36

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

Diemschitz arrives 1.00

Your timeline does not compute.

[GBinOz]

When we are discussing all things related to the Berner Street murder, where times are the main source of problem in getting any idea of the order of events I think it’s worth reminding ourselves of a couple of things. Firstly, the piece on timekeeping by Chris McKay which was initially posted by George some time ago. I’ll highlight just one sentence:

“So, if the working man's watch or clock was within 10 minutes of true time, I would think that good for the 1880s.”

A timely reminder of McKay's dissertation Herlock. He also said that police time was the most likely to be GMT, but of course there is still some error introduced as the beat progresses.

However one clock, such as the clock in the club, might be 10 minutes slow, and another clock, such as the Tobacconist clock might be ten minutes fast. Both clocks considered good for the time, but differing by 20 minutes from each other, resulting in a unique perception by each person as to what time things happened, such as Hershburg, Kozebrodsky and Diemshitz.
Then come the errors in estimating time since having last seen a clock of indeterminate accuracy. Eagle didn't know what time he left the club to take his lady home - estimating between 11:30 and 11:45. A half hour return trip would see him back at the yard between 12 midnight and 12:15, so we can't confidently assume that he was anywhere near the Schwartz incident. Brown and Spooner were also guessing times. We can't know if Mortimer (et al) had looked at a clock and if so, how divergent those clocks may have been from GMT or from any other clock.

Hence the suggestion that sequences may be of more use than timelines, but they still involve a great deal of speculation and supposition.

[GBinOz]

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.
Diemschitz arrives 1.00

Your timeline does not compute.

According to whose clock?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A timely reminder of McKay's dissertation Herlock. He also said that police time was the most likely to be GMT, but of course there is still some error introduced as the beat progresses.

However one clock, such as the clock in the club, might be 10 minutes slow, and another clock, such as the Tobacconist clock might be ten minutes fast. Both clocks considered good for the time, but differing by 20 minutes from each other, resulting in a unique perception by each person as to what time things happened, such as Hershburg, Kozebrodsky and Diemshitz.
Then come the errors in estimating time since having last seen a clock of indeterminate accuracy. Eagle didn't know what time he left the club to take his lady home - estimating between 11:30 and 11:45. A half hour return trip would see him back at the yard between 12 midnight and 12:15, so we can't confidently assume that he was anywhere near the Schwartz incident. Brown and Spooner were also guessing times. We can't know if Mortimer (et al) had looked at a clock and if so, how divergent those clocks may have been from GMT or from any other clock.

Hence the suggestion that sequences may be of more use than timelines, but they still involve a great deal of speculation and supposition.

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

According to whose clock?

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.