An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

And he clearly wasn’t.

Diemschitz found the body.
Lamb arrived with Eagle.
Smith arrived.

Thats what happened…in that order. Insert whatever times you want. I’ve inserted mine. It fits. No problem at all.

All that has to be considered is that the clock that led Smith to believe that it was 1.00 wasn’t in line with the one that Diemschitz used. This isn’t science-fiction so I really can’t see why it causes you such problems.

[Herlock Sholmes]

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

They are all in the same time but some are taking their time estimates from different sources. And some would be based on estimating a length of time between the event and when they had last seen a clock.

You told me ages ago that you don’t think that times should be taken literally (if it was Michael and not you then I apologise) but you clearly do….when it suits you.

[The Rookie Detective]

How much of an issue are all these indeterminately accurate clocks?

Diemschitz: I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

If that clock could have been out by plus or minus ten minutes, we might expect witnesses 'guestimating' the time to be well out. Were they?

Mrs Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened.

Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Mortimer: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out ... It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

Brown: I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.

That quarter of an hour being as of about 12:49, when he saw the couple at the corner. Why not as of 12:40 or 1:00am, if Brown is guessing the time based on his last look at an unsynchronised clock?

It's almost as though their brains were synchronised to a master clock.

Brilliant post, just brilliant!

[The Rookie Detective]

One of the issues regarding Smith is that he states 12.30am/12.35am or anytime between.

He himself says his beat takes 25 to 30 minutes.

And so based on his own words and timing; he should have been walking through Berner Street again at some point between 12.55am-1.05am.

Now unless BS man was the killer and the murder occurred nearer to 12.45am, then Pc Smith should have been walking along Berner Street right in the middle of the most likely kill time; 12.55-1am

So, the question is; where was he?

If Mortimer did indeed hear measured tramping of a policeman's footsteps, then It may have been Smith heading along Berner Street.
If that's the case and Mortimer then goes to her door, then could Goldstein have witnessed Smith walking North towards him?

Could Smith have cut Stride's throat and then headed north just as Goldstein was heading towards him?
Smith then darts west through the covered alleyway between 30 and 32 Berner Street, but not before Goldstein sees the officer with bloodied hands. He then walks hurriedly past Mortimer just as she opens her door and she sees him just moments after the murder.

Pc Smith then heads towards Backchurch Lane, disposing of the knife and finding a water source to wash his hands. He then rejoins his beat, but is nowhere near where he is meant to be.

That's why he's one of the last people to arrive at the murders scene, despite it being his beat.


Food for thought.

[GBinOz]

Whichever clock Herlock is implicitly basing his timeline on, is not relevant here. The issue is that Smith cannot be at the top Berner St as Diemschitz drives into the yard.

I suspect you have lost the plot here Andrew. Smith can indeed be at the top of Berner St at an estimated police time, while Diemshitz is there on on a completely different clock time, such as the Harris clock. Hershburg and Kozebrodsky appear to be yet on another time - possibly that of the clock in the club that Eagle testified he didn't observe. Lamb has Eagle and Kozebrodsky reporting the murder before 1AM (police time), verified by the fixed point officer still being on duty.

It is interesting that you should promote Eagle as an example of your times theory. You quote him as saying:
Eagle: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.
What is this "time I left home to return to the club"? Is this some time before the meeting? That doesn't seem likely as he says "return to the club". Here is his reported statement to The Evening News dated 1 Oct:
"I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets.".

It could be noted that here he doesn't mention calling in at his home on the the way back, and his recollection of his departure time is 12 midnight rather than 11:30 to 11:45. Either Eagle is very poor at estimations of time intervals and recollections of his actions on that night, or he is covering up.

[GBinOz]

One of the issues regarding Smith is that he states 12.30am/12.35am or anytime between.

He himself says his beat takes 25 to 30 minutes.

And so based on his own words and timing; he should have been walking through Berner Street again at some point between 12.55am-1.05am.

Now unless BS man was the killer and the murder occurred nearer to 12.45am, then Pc Smith should have been walking along Berner Street right in the middle of the most likely kill time; 12.55-1am

So, the question is; where was he?

If Mortimer did indeed hear measured tramping of a policeman's footsteps, then It may have been Smith heading along Berner Street.
If that's the case and Mortimer then goes to her door, then could Goldstein have witnessed Smith walking North towards him?

Could Smith have cut Stride's throat and then headed north just as Goldstein was heading towards him?
Smith then darts west through the covered alleyway between 30 and 32 Berner Street, but not before Goldstein sees the officer with bloodied hands. He then walks hurriedly past Mortimer just as she opens her door and she sees him just moments after the murder.

Pc Smith then heads towards Backchurch Lane, disposing of the knife and finding a water source to wash his hands. He then rejoins his beat, but is nowhere near where he is meant to be.

That's why he's one of the last people to arrive at the murders scene, despite it being his beat.


Food for thought.

I don't think so. What possible motive could Smith have had to murder Stride. I suggest that you might consider whether the footsteps that Mortimer heard were that of Goldstein, observed heading north by Mrs Artisan. A short appearance at The Spectacle Cafe to establish an alibi and a return back on Berner St to be observed by Mortimer glancing at the Yard on his way home.

[The Rookie Detective]

I don't think so. What possible motive could Smith have had to murder Stride. I suggest that you might consider whether the footsteps that Mortimer heard were that of Goldstein, observed heading north by Mrs Artisan. A short appearance at The Spectacle Cafe to establish an alibi and a return back on Berner St to be observed by Mortimer glancing at the Yard on his way home.

A fair point.

But it still doesn't answer the question; where was Smith?

Based on his very own timings, he should have been walking along Berner Street again between 12.55am - 1am.

So where was he and why wasn't his absence questioned?