An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[c.d.]

I'm yet to read a single intelligent response.

So in other words, that would be any response that doesn't agree with your position. Got it.

c.d.

[New Waterloo]

Best and Gardner in the Bricklayers pub may have been mistaken however I see no reason ( as with other witnesses) to believe they made up their story. They seem pretty confident that they saw Stride with a man whos description appears to carry through some further witnesses. Just if this respectable short coat wearing man is JTR then he takes a considerable time with Stride before deciding to kill her. Why? There a multitudes of alleyways in the area where he could have taken her. Perhaps he planned to kill in the yard of the jewish club but finds himself hanging around waiting as there are far more comings and goings than he anticipated. He is frustrated by interruptions. He almost gives up when BSM appears who could be Browns man. When BSM is told not tonight. He sees a window of opportunity. Takes Stride into the yard and kills her in seconds.
NW

[The Rookie Detective]

So you're granting that Smith should have been there by 1:05, and Herlock is estimating that he got back at 1:06. If the clocks weren't perfectly synchronized and people's abilities to report the exact time their clocks say aren't perfect, then a one minute discrepancy isn't a problem.

You're missing the point.

Smith should have been there by 1.05am (Herlock suggests 1.06am)

But it's not about whether he should; it's the fact that he wasn't.


And whether it's 1.05am, or 1.06am; both those times would have meant that PC Smith would have walked along Berner Street as part of his beat, and thus he would have passed the murder site at virtually the same time everyone was reacting to having discovered the body.

The only explanations for Smith's absence; are that he was useless at time keeping, absconding from his regulated beat, or his walking path did not include walking along Berner Street; specifically along the junction with Fairclough and Berner Street.


Smith walks along Berner Street between 12.30am and 12.35am.

That then means that he should have walked the exact same route again just 25 to 30 minutes later.


But he didn't


That means that Smith should have been walking along Berner St at the same time that Stride was either...in the yard with her killer before he struck, being murdered, or dying on the floor as the killer escaped.


The fact that Smith was not scrutinised more perhaps stems from the fact that nobody would suspect the police to be at fault for anything (a bit like today), when in reality, they're just people.

The only was for Smith to be vindicated would be if he initially saw Stride and Parcelman circa 12.45am.
That rotation would then bring him back around to walk along Berner Street between 1.10am - 1.15am, which appears to be within the parameter of when Smith did finally show up.

There's no mention of him having been delayed on his beat, and there's no real attempt to challenge anything he said.


So just to clarify; it's not Smith's absence from the top of Berner Street that's the issue; it's the fact he didn't walk along Berner Street again, when he should have done; based on his own timings and words.


Funny that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Time and again I point out your illogic. You have never come to terms with the implications of Smith's beat, and his indication that his final beat before reaching the yard was within regulation.



What you don't accept, or perhaps understand, is that if his clock is slow by 6 minutes, it is slow at both ends. If you're going add 6 minutes to 1:00, you also have to add 6 minutes to the starting point. You want to make his starting point 12:36, so let's see if your sums add up.

If Smith was last in Berner St between 12:30 and 12:35 by his clock, we could say that he witnesses Stride in between those times. As she was closer to Commercial Rd than the yard at that point,

Was there a second Liz Stride that only you know about? PC. Smith: “She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street.”

So she was nowhere near to Commercial Road and massively closer to the yard.

Smith has a bit further to go when he returns to Berner St, so I'll say that his yard-to-yard round trip starts at 12:33. By regulation, Smith should reach the yard from 25 to 30 minutes later. That would mean 12:58 to 1:03, again by his clock. He tells us he is at the top Berner St at 1:00. At beat pace - remember he continues down Berner St at regulation pace - he is going to be entering the yard at very close to 1:02. That is a 29-minute beat - within regulation.

Now consider your adjustment to his time. Placing him at the top of the street 6 minutes later than his clock indicated, means he gets to the yard at 1:08. To remain consistent with the timespan of his final beat - not just his regulation timespan but also that which he stated under oath - he would have to last be in Berner St between 12:36 and 12:41. He would therefore have witnessed Stride at approximately 12:39. (In your timeline of #517, you have Fanny going to her door at 12.37.30.)

The problem now is that you have a beat lasting from 12:36 to 1:08. That's 32 minutes - outside of regulation and not compatible with Smith's testimony, even if his 6-minute early clock is accepted as reasonable. Granted, you're only about 3 minutes longer than Smith indicated, and only 2 minutes above regulation, so putting your timeline in order may not be too difficult if you can shave 2 or 3 minutes of activity.

I’m suggesting the obvious. That Smith saw a clock which told him that it was 1.00 when he turned into Berner Street. He arrived at his 12.30/35 estimate by deducing 25/30 minutes from 1.00. This is supported by the fact that his 12.30/35 is clearly an estimate.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let’s imagine that I’m looking down on Berner Street on the night of the murder and I’m looking at a clock which will give us THE time; the time against which all others will be compared.

Louis Diemschitz sees that the Baker’s clock tells him that it’s 1.00 by my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 12.55.

Diemschitz finds the body and he believes that it is still 1.00 by my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 12.55.30.

Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky go for a Constable but return with Spooner in tow at what he would think was around 1.02 but by my clock, THE clock, it’s actually 12.57.30.

Morris Eagle goes for a Constable and returns with Lamb at what Diemschitz might have felt was 1.05 but my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 1.00.

Smith turns into Berner Street at what he believed was 1.00 but my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 1.01.

If Smith’s beat took 25/30 minutes then we have him seeing Stride at between 12.31 and 12.36.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're missing the point.

Smith should have been there by 1.05am (Herlock suggests 1.06am)

But it's not about whether he should; it's the fact that he wasn't.


And whether it's 1.05am, or 1.06am; both those times would have meant that PC Smith would have walked along Berner Street as part of his beat, and thus he would have passed the murder site at virtually the same time everyone was reacting to having discovered the body.

The only explanations for Smith's absence; are that he was useless at time keeping, absconding from his regulated beat, or his walking path did not include walking along Berner Street; specifically along the junction with Fairclough and Berner Street.


Smith walks along Berner Street between 12.30am and 12.35am.

That then means that he should have walked the exact same route again just 25 to 30 minutes later.


But he didn't


That means that Smith should have been walking along Berner St at the same time that Stride was either...in the yard with her killer before he struck, being murdered, or dying on the floor as the killer escaped.


The fact that Smith was not scrutinised more perhaps stems from the fact that nobody would suspect the police to be at fault for anything (a bit like today), when in reality, they're just people.

The only was for Smith to be vindicated would be if he initially saw Stride and Parcelman circa 12.45am.
That rotation would then bring him back around to walk along Berner Street between 1.10am - 1.15am, which appears to be within the parameter of when Smith did finally show up.

There's no mention of him having been delayed on his beat, and there's no real attempt to challenge anything he said.


So just to clarify; it's not Smith's absence from the top of Berner Street that's the issue; it's the fact he didn't walk along Berner Street again, when he should have done; based on his own timings and words.


Funny that.

How would you explain Long and Halse both saying that they walked along Goulston Street at 2.00 and yet they didn’t see each other? Which one was lying? Or was it down to them both ‘thinking’ that it was 2.00?

[Herlock Sholmes]

And I’d also like to add a general question. Were PC’s always totally honest? Or do we hear of some getting fired for their dodgy behaviour on their beat? So can we be certain that Smith wasn’t running a little behind time? Maybe he stopped a bit longer for a sandwich? Maybe he stopped and chatted to someone that he knew? Was he going to admit it? We can’t assume that these men were perfect. They were poorly trained, poorly paid men trudging the dangerous streets in all weather.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was there a second Liz Stride that only you know about? PC. Smith: “She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street.”

So she was nowhere near to Commercial Road and massively closer to the yard.

C: Was she on the pavement?
S: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

My poor phrasing. I meant to suggest that she was a little closer to Commercial Rd than the yard is. Not that she was nearer that road than the yard. As that leaves Smith a short distance to walk to get to the yard, I could round up to a whole minute.

I’m suggesting the obvious. That Smith saw a clock which told him that it was 1.00 when he turned into Berner Street. He arrived at his 12.30/35 estimate by deducing 25/30 minutes from 1.00. This is supported by the fact that his 12.30/35 is clearly an estimate.

If it were an estimate - and I'm not sure how you can claim to know that for a fact - then what Smith is telling us is that his final beat before getting to the yard was within regulation. In other words, nothing had occurred between seeing the woman with a flower and his arrival at the yard, to cause his round trip to go beyond 30 minutes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And I’d also like to add a general question. Were PC’s always totally honest? Or do we hear of some getting fired for their dodgy behaviour on their beat? So can we be certain that Smith wasn’t running a little behind time? Maybe he stopped a bit longer for a sandwich? Maybe he stopped and chatted to someone that he knew? Was he going to admit it? We can’t assume that these men were perfect. They were poorly trained, poorly paid men trudging the dangerous streets in all weather.

Apparently, you need more time, but is this the right time of night?

Coroner: When you were found what direction were you going in?
Lamb: I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.

Crucially, the Times reported also recorded the following, straight after.

Lamb: All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

As Smith was due to take up some or all of the responsibility of the fixed-duty officer at 1am, I doubt he had stopped for a sandwich just prior.

[GBinOz]

Let’s imagine that I’m looking down on Berner Street on the night of the murder and I’m looking at a clock which will give us THE time; the time against which all others will be compared.

Louis Diemschitz sees that the Baker’s clock tells him that it’s 1.00 by my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 12.55.

Diemschitz finds the body and he believes that it is still 1.00 by my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 12.55.30.

Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky go for a Constable but return with Spooner in tow at what he would think was around 1.02 but by my clock, THE clock, it’s actually 12.57.30.

Morris Eagle goes for a Constable and returns with Lamb at what Diemschitz might have felt was 1.05 but my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 1.00.

Smith turns into Berner Street at what he believed was 1.00 but my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 1.01.

If Smith’s beat took 25/30 minutes then we have him seeing Stride at between 12.31 and 12.36.

You have come far pilgrim. A definitive post on the realities of timelines. I entirely agree....hang on...can someone please check the temperature in the infernal realms of perdition.

[Abby Normal]

Including screams, I presume.

you conveniently left out the not very loudly part.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Over the years I've considered that Schwartz may have been lying. The reasons for this are that the Star report (a police plant, yes, but perhaps not entirely without some factual accuracy) has Schwartz living on Berner Street until that week. Schwartz goes to the police with his own interpreter, as did Goldstein (i.e. William Wess) and William Wess appears to have known about the Schwartz story as a muddled version of it appears in the press. This potential connection between Schwartz and the IWEC club opened the possibility of the anarchists doing some damage control by presenting the police with two obviously gentile suspects, replete with Semitic slur. There's also the fact that Schwartz disappears from not only the records, but the memories of police at about November 1st, 1888. I find that odd.

Having said all that, when I really dug deep into the evidence, it stood out to me that if Schwartz was lying, he was extraordinary lucky, because his lie depends on Berner Street being absolutely empty at around 12:45 for his story to not be immediately disproved. Low and behold, it turns out this was true. And Brown puts a man wearing a dark overcoat in the street at this time. Another remarkable coincidence if Schwartz's story had been bunk. What I ended up concluding is that while it's possible Schwartz's story is a hoax, the likelihood is something like what Swanson describes in his October 19th report did, in fact, take place. His description of the men is probably not spot on and more than the word 'Lipski' was likely spoken, but he couldn't understand it. But unless he was a remarkably fortunate liar, we have to take his story on board.

In any event, what he witnessed was not Stride's murder but some sort of prelude.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

In the first paragraph you suggest a possible connection between Schwartz and the club. In the second, a hypothetically lying Schwartz gets incredibly lucky that the street is empty at that time. Could Eagle have told Wess the street was empty just before 12:45? Could Lave have confirmed this? Could Eagle have told Wess he believed he had passed the victim on the street, talking to a man, and thus placing an incident a few minutes after his entry to the club was relatively risk free?

In #479, we can see the club paywalling itself to make money by giving journalists "explanations about the murder". Did the Socialist Club's profiteering get out of hand, when Wess's story telling landed him in a hole of own making? What are the chances that Israel Schwartz would have gone to the police about what he saw? Lucky Wess.

You also claim that Brown's dark overcoat man is another remarkable coincidence. This is who you're talking about ...

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Pipeman ran off.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

you conveniently left out the not very loudly part.

Coroner: If there were singing and dancing going on would you have been likely to have heard the cry of a woman in great distress-a cry of murder, for instance-from the yard?
Eagle: Oh, we should certainly have heard such a cry.

Whereas you conveniently left out the evidence. Also, the rain had stopped.

[Herlock Sholmes]

C: Was she on the pavement?
S: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

My poor phrasing. I meant to suggest that she was a little closer to Commercial Rd than the yard is. Not that she was nearer that road than the yard. As that leaves Smith a short distance to walk to get to the yard, I could round up to a whole minute.

How many yards is ‘a few.’ It could have been 5.

If it were an estimate - and I'm not sure how you can claim to know that for a fact - then what Smith is telling us is that his final beat before getting to the yard was within regulation. In other words, nothing had occurred between seeing the woman with a flower and his arrival at the yard, to cause his round trip to go beyond 30 minutes.

The fact that he gives a range and not a time (like 1.00) shows that he was estimating. 12.30-12.35 isn’t a time. It’s an approximation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apparently, you need more time, but is this the right time of night?

Coroner: When you were found what direction were you going in?
Lamb: I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.

Crucially, the Times reported also recorded the following, straight after.

Lamb: All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

As Smith was due to take up some or all of the responsibility of the fixed-duty officer at 1am, I doubt he had stopped for a sandwich just prior.

What makes you think that Smith was due to take over some of the fixed point officers duties?

If I recall correctly from Neil Bell, fixed point officers were relieved at the end of their shift by a sergeant on a round? If that was the case then he couldn’t have got to all fixed point officers at exactly 1.00.