An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another general point worth making in my opinion is on the word ‘convenient’ or ‘conveniently.’ This is often used when a series of events is suggested where one person just misses seeing another. “How convenient.” As if this is a deliberate example of manoeuvring witnesses into place like pieces on a chess board.

If we could look down on virtually any street at any time we would see things like this happening in real life. If we looked down on my street you would see Mr X passing and turning the corner just before Mrs Y exited her front door. Then five seconds after Mrs Y turns left out of her front door Mrs Z exits her front door two doors down from Mrs Y and neither see or hear each other.

Stuff like this happens every day but if we were looking down on this scene no one would say “well that was convenient.” And yet when a scenario is suggested that has someone narrowly missing someone the the word ‘convenient’ is wheeled out.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NotBlamed. Diemschutz statement clearly states that he found Spooner around the Beehive Grove Street area. He does not mention Spooners girlfriend. Spooner is very close to where he lived. Perhaps his girlfriend had gone home a little earlier. I dont know. As for BSM. I have no reason to question Schwartz at the moment. Might have been mistaken what he saw but i cant see why BSM didn't exist at the moment.

So, we are agreed that Spooner is where he said he was, give or take a few yards. The only question then, is what became of the lady friend. It's true that Diemschitz does not mention her, and that is a little odd. Perhaps in stopping the two men running back along the street, Spooner became physically separated from her, and Diemschitz didn't notice her. Diemschitz did have his mind on other things and perhaps was a bit tunnel-visioned due to stress.

Perhaps Spooner threw his front door key to the lady, just as he ran off. Perhaps she followed him to Berner St but walked rather than ran. The latter would explain Mortimer's conversation with the mysterious board school couple. I say mysterious because the couple then seem to disappear - we never hear of them again.

We also seem to agree that BS Man has no apparent motive for killing, and so why suppose he did? If you don't doubt Schwartz, can you explain the killer's arrival on the scene?

[The Rookie Detective]

As Herlock mentions; it's the chronology of events that actually matters far more than any given timings.

On that basis; what can we sure of in terms of chronology of events?

Well if we choose to believe each witness at face value, then we know that...

In no particular order...


Goldstein walked down Berner St at the same time that Mortimer was at her door and saw him do so.

Eagle came back to the club and walked into the yard when Mortimer was not at her door, because she never saw anyone enter the yard.

Pc Smith saw Stride talking with Parcelman across the road from the club. Mortimer was not at her door.

Lave came out of the yard, went as far as the street and then reentered through the yard. Mortimer was not at her door.

Schwartz saw Bs man and Pipeman in Berner Street and Stride in the yard. Mortimer was not at her door. PC Smith was not in Berner Street.

Brown saw a couple on the corner by the board school on his way back from the chandler's shop. The couple hadn't been there 5 minutes earlier when he was on his way to the shop. PC Smith isn't present, Schwartz isn't present. Goldstein isn't present.

Schwartz, Bs Man, Pipeman, Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith, Letchford were not present for the duration of time Mortimer was at her door.

When Eagle returned to the club he eludes to other people having been in the street, but that he takes no notice of them. Stride was not standing in the yard when Eagle entered it.

Stride was not standing in the yard when Lave walked into it.

There are countless more, but for now let's ask the question...

Of the above, what is the correct chronological order of events?

Forget timings entirely, its just the correct sequence that matters in this instance.

[New Waterloo]

Well NotBlamed I am unable to speculate on motives or what exactly happened. We all have to slowly put the jigsaw together. I feel some degree of confidence in this approach. If we get enough pieces the gaps and speculation will pull together and may disappear. We are fortunate with the Stride murder in that we have lots of statements and witnesses. I agree with others the order of events is more important than timing. If we are very very lucky in putting an order of events together then motive and what happened will become obvious. I think we have more chance with this killing than the others.

[Lewis C]

As Herlock mentions; it's the chronology of events that actually matters far more than any given timings.

On that basis; what can we sure of in terms of chronology of events?

Well if we choose to believe each witness at face value, then we know that...

In no particular order...


Goldstein walked down Berner St at the same time that Mortimer was at her door and saw him do so.

Eagle came back to the club and walked into the yard when Mortimer was not at her door, because she never saw anyone enter the yard.

Pc Smith saw Stride talking with Parcelman across the road from the club. Mortimer was not at her door.

Lave came out of the yard, went as far as the street and then reentered through the yard. Mortimer was not at her door.

Schwartz saw Bs man and Pipeman in Berner Street and Stride in the yard. Mortimer was not at her door. PC Smith was not in Berner Street.

Brown saw a couple on the corner by the board school on his way back from the chandler's shop. The couple hadn't been there 5 minutes earlier when he was on his way to the shop. PC Smith isn't present, Schwartz isn't present. Goldstein isn't present.

Schwartz, Bs Man, Pipeman, Eagle, Lave, Pc Smith, Letchford were not present for the duration of time Mortimer was at her door.

When Eagle returned to the club he eludes to other people having been in the street, but that he takes no notice of them. Stride was not standing in the yard when Eagle entered it.

Stride was not standing in the yard when Lave walked into it.

There are countless more, but for now let's ask the question...

Of the above, what is the correct chronological order of events?

Forget timings entirely, its just the correct sequence that matters in this instance.

Hi RD,

I'm wondering if there is anything in the above that we can be certain or close to certain about what order it happened in. What I feel most confident in asserting is that Smith passed and Eagle returned before Fanny was at her door and before Brown went out, but even that I'm not certain about.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Smith passes and sees Stride and Parcelman in an otherwise empty street.

Lave is in the yard for air.

Stride and Parcelman move on and go their separate ways.

Lave comes to the street, notices nothing, goes back inside side.

Eagle returns and at around the same time that Brown goes for his supper.

Stride returns and stops the talk to Overcoat man just around the corner in Fairclough Street.

Brown passes them and hears her say ‘not tonight’; they separate.

Stride goes into Berner Street just as BS man does from the other end followed by Schwartz.

Stride ducks into the gateway (to wait for someone or to hide from BS man)

BS man passes Fanny’s door. She thinks that it’s a Constable (she assumes this because she hadn’t heard Smith pass earlier)

The incident occurs. Schwartz and Pipeman leave. BS man kills Stride and leaves.

It’s a minute or two since she heard the footsteps and Fanny goes onto her doorstep.

Some time before 1.00 Goldstein passes.

She goes back inside just before 1.00.

As she thinks that the footsteps were a Constable she assumes that she was on her doorstep from 12.30 or 12.35 until just before 1.00 (explaining her ‘most of the time between..)

Diemschitz arrives at around 1.00


Or alternately..


The incident occurs. Schwartz and Pipeman leave.

Fanny comes onto her doorstep.

BS man are in the passageway talking..

Goldstein passes and looks toward the club because he thinks that he hears someone inside the gateway.

Fanny goes back inside.

BS man kills Stride and leaves.

Diemschitz arrives at around 1.00

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think I like this one better; times added too


Smith passes at 12.36

Lave looks onto the street 12.36.30 and goes back inside.

Eagle returns 12.37

Fanny goes onto her doorstep 12.37.30 (hears Eagle and thinks he’s a Constable)

Goldstein passes 12.45

Brown goes for supper (Fanny doesn’t see him - only needs 2-3 seconds of her looking the other way) (maybe she saw him but didn’t mention him?) 12.46

Brown returns and sees couple (again Fanny doesn’t see him/ or didn’t mention him?) 12.50

Fanny goes indoors 12.52

Stride arrives at the gateway 12.53

Incident with BS man occurs 12.54

Stride is killed/ BS man flees 12.55

Diemschitz arrives 1.00


This gives Fanny around 14.5 minutes on her doorstep which she probably felt was longer. Especially if she believed that Eagle was Smith passing at close on 12.30.

The Schwartz incident occurs 10 minutes later that stated.