An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks NotBlamed for the map. When Spooner runs to Berner Street he leaves his girlfriend very vulnerable. I suppose she could have been living at his address (26 Fairclough) That's why I am thinking an address for her would be useful and will get back to all if I find one. I am taking a gamble that the girlfriend was the person Spooner married . I think her maiden name was Catherine Sullivan.
NW

Consider #74 in the JtRF thread I previously linked to. Perhaps Spooner's lady friend made her own way down to Berner St, after Edward ran there. This Daily News report has recently been recently discussed:

A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

There must be some possibility that Spooner's lady friend is the subject of this report. Spooner referred to being with her for 25 minutes, and this report says 20 minutes - quite similar. The report also says, "she said", but she is neither named nor quoted. Perhaps what she said is second-hand, courtesy of Fanny Mortimer. So then, how to explain this:

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

The 20 yards is a big problem for the theory, right? Well, what if the young lady had mentioned standing outside the Beehive but only referred to it generically as "the pub around the corner", and Mortimer mistook this for meaning the Nelson. That would mean there was no other 'sweetheart' couple at the board school corner. Who then, did James Brown see on his way home from the chandler's shop?

Brown: I have seen the deceased in the mortuary. On Sunday morning last about 12.45 I went from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner street. I was in the shop a few minutes and then went home. As I crossed the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board school in Fairclough street. I was in the road just by the kerb and they were up against the wall. I heard the woman say, "Not tonight, some other night." This made me look round at them. I am almost certain the deceased is the woman who spoke.

If this theory is wrong, and there was indeed another couple at that corner, why are they seemingly never heard from again?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am wondering, my friend, if you may have possibly neglected to mention that #26 is actually on the opposite side of the road to the Beehive and #37?

Hi George,

I did say to cross over the road when getting to number 37. Number 37 is on the same side as the pub.

[New Waterloo]

Thanks NotBlamed for the map. When Spooner runs to Berner Street he leaves his girlfriend very vulnerable. I suppose she could have been living at his address (26 Fairclough) That's why I am thinking an address for her would be useful and will get back to all if I find one. I am taking a gamble that the girlfriend was the person Spooner married . I think her maiden name was Catherine Sullivan.
NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

May not be of any importance but interesting none the less that the couple seen by Brown are standing very close (opposite side of road) to where Spooner lived. That being 26 Fairclough Street. Cant be certain as my map doesn't have house numbers on. Not sure if its significant. Could anybody have a look please and indicate where his house was in relation to the Board school.
Thank you It would be appreciated.
NW

Took me a while to remember, but Jon S. has done some great map work ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/816510-the-stride-murder?p=817414#post817414

Looks like 26 Fairclough was between Christian and Grove streets.

[New Waterloo]

Thanks Herlock and GBinOz. The reason I asked was to satisfy myself that it is a reasonably short section of road where we have both Stride and her man and Spooner and his girlfriend with Brown only mentioning one couple. It is a problem in my mind. Also I am struggling a bit about when Spooner said he and his girlfriend were standing by the Beehive for quite a long time. Lets be honest. After the evening out there would be some kissing maybe (etc) before saying goodbye. It doesnt seem likely to me for this to take place outside the Beehive. Certainly not virtually opposite Spooners home address would it? I would have thought finding a secluded spot somewhere on route back to girlfriends home. she just doesn't go home by magic. When Spooner goes to Dutfields yard. She either gos with him or gos home. Its hard to believe that he would leave her when its just announced somebodies been murdered. Unless she lived close to where they were.
NW

[GBinOz]

Hi NW,

I have the ideal map that you need but I can’t upload it. No doubt someone will be able to upload a copy of the map with the street numbers and coloured dots noting significant spots for you.

Location of Spooner’s house.

Ok, you are in Fairclough Street leaning against the Board School wall with your left shoulder and facing east. You walk east on Fairclough and cross over Batty Street on your left. Then past the next block of buildings (with Brown’s house in the middle of that block) then past The Beehive on the corner and across Christian Street to the next block which starts with number 37 on the corner. Cross over Fairclough Street when you get to 37 and you’re at another small block of buildings. Spooner’s number 26 is half way along that block. You would have been able to see The Beehive easily from Spooner’s front door. He would also have been able to see Brown’s front door.

I am wondering, my friend, if you may have possibly neglected to mention that #26 is actually on the opposite side of the road to the Beehive and #37?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Herlock. Very useful. Not at all where I thought but I guess if he was at the Beehive fairly close to where he lived. This takes me back to an earlier thought. At some point (and it is getting late) he presumably has to take his girlfriend home? I think where she was living is important. Especially if she went home before the searchers arrived and he took her. What would be his route?
NE

NW, you might like this old (but still active) thread at JtRF. Link goes to post #51 for its relevance to current discussions.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/elizabeth-stride/1428-elizabeth-stride?p=49313#post49313

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz had reached the gateway when he stopped to watch the man who was ill-using the woman. Presumably he watched from some distance, and not while at the gateway himself. This suggests he watched from across the street. Crossing the street from that point would have him angling toward home on Ellen St, but it could take him closer to the gateway if he had wanted to intervene in the situation. That would make him an intruder, from the man's point of view. Does that ring a bell?

An observer to this situation might become confused as to who the perpetrator was, especially if a man is then seen being pursued from the scene. That observer might be hypothetical, but the following report from the Echo suggests otherwise.

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

There is disagreement as to whether the Echo report in reality is about the murder, or about a misconstrual of the police search. The following snippet from Der Arbeter Fraint would seem to be enlightening.

Early Sunday morning all of Berner Street was already besieged, and every one looked at number 40 with the greatest curiosity. The club door did not close the whole day. Police and newspaper reporters ran around like poisoned mice.
Seeing that it was impossible to have any amusement that evening and therefore the club would lose money, the members decided to charge the reporters an admission fee if they wanted explanations [descriptions?] of the murder. This is what happened and the reporters willingly paid the donation to Socialist propaganda.

Some people at the club seem to have known something about what happened, and when it happened ...

The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

[New Waterloo]

Thanks Herlock. Very useful. Not at all where I thought but I guess if he was at the Beehive fairly close to where he lived. This takes me back to an earlier thought. At some point (and it is getting late) he presumably has to take his girlfriend home? I think where she was living is important. Especially if she went home before the searchers arrived and he took her. What would be his route?
NE

[Herlock Sholmes]

May not be of any importance but interesting none the less that the couple seen by Brown are standing very close (opposite side of road) to where Spooner lived. That being 26 Fairclough Street. Cant be certain as my map doesn't have house numbers on. Not sure if its significant. Could anybody have a look please and indicate where his house was in relation to the Board school.
Thank you It would be appreciated.
NW

Hi NW,

I have the ideal map that you need but I can’t upload it. No doubt someone will be able to upload a copy of the map with the street numbers and coloured dots noting significant spots for you.

Location of Spooner’s house.

Ok, you are in Fairclough Street leaning against the Board School wall with your left shoulder and facing east. You walk east on Fairclough and cross over Batty Street on your left. Then past the next block of buildings (with Brown’s house in the middle of that block) then past The Beehive on the corner and across Christian Street to the next block which starts with number 37 on the corner. Cross over Fairclough Street when you get to 37 and you’re at another small block of buildings. Spooner’s number 26 is half way along that block. You would have been able to see The Beehive easily from Spooner’s front door. He would also have been able to see Brown’s front door.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Error

[New Waterloo]

May not be of any importance but interesting none the less that the couple seen by Brown are standing very close (opposite side of road) to where Spooner lived. That being 26 Fairclough Street. Cant be certain as my map doesn't have house numbers on. Not sure if its significant. Could anybody have a look please and indicate where his house was in relation to the Board school.
Thank you It would be appreciated.
NW

[The Rookie Detective]

As a matter of interest, re Krantz, and following post.

The name "Yaffa" in Hebrew means "Beautiful"

As a surname; it's of Hebrew and African origin.

As a forename, it is a feminine name given to a girl.

The term "Comrade" can be applied to both men and women.

The question is; was "Yaffa" a woman?


It's possible.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Arbeter Fraint: There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor's office.

As a matter of interest, re Krantz, and following post.

[Tom_Wescott]

I assume you've read the issue of Arbeter Fraint that came out following the murder? I have, but it's been some time. Interesting name variations. Your mention of the printing office made me think of it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott