An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[New Waterloo]

Hi NotBlamed. I accept that the girlfriend (possibly Spooners) may not have said ‘bisecting thoroughfare’ but the report would suggest some suggestion of an intersecting alley way rather than street which a reporter would have ascertained from a conversation. So I would suggest the girl maybe talking about a location further towards Commercial Road because that section of Berner Street is where we see ‘bisecting thoroughfares’ its such a specific term for the press to use that I feel there may be something to it.
Diemschutz does not say that Spooner and his girlfriend were at Grove Street. His evidence confirms Spooner in the Grove street area. Spooner does say he was at the Beehive for some 30 minutes before the ‘searchers’ arrived but he left the earlier pub on commercial Road at midnight so according to him he is actually in the area with his girlfriend for over an hour. If we believe him about the Beehive where is he and his girlfriend from midnight to 12.30pm. Its quite feasible a courting couple would use alleyways.
Rookie is seeing real possibilities about the couple Brown saw but it is certainly complicated at the moment.

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

12:50 for Goldstein would have Fanny locking up at about 12:52. That is cutting it too fine. Let's make it 12:48 for Goldstein. That would have Mortimer on her doorstep between about 12:40 and 12:50, having come to her doorstep shortly after PC Smith passed her residence.

[Lewis C]

Is there a reason why Goldstein's passing through couldn't have happened a couple of minutes prior to 12:52?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So unless there were 3 couples, then Brown either saw Spooner and his gf, or he saw Stride with Overcoat man either before or after she was assaulted by BS man....or Stride was Spooner's date.


3 couples
Spooner and his gf
Spooner and Stride
Overcoat man and Stride


Take your pick

Let's assume that Brown was correct, that he did see Stride. Also assume that the man was not Spooner. So, it's Stride and Overcoat Man at the board school corner.

Brown's timings place his eye-witnessing of the two at approximately 12:49. By close to 1am, Stride's blood will have trickled down to the side door of the club. The odds must be high, perhaps extremely so, that OM is the killer of Stride. Let's give OM a reasonable amount of time to coax Liz to go to the yard or club, where he commits the murder. I'm thinking 1 minute minimum, to 5 minutes at most. Let's assume 3 minutes. The time is now ~12:52. At no later than about 1:02, members of the club can see blood, and a lot of it.

I wonder if you can see a problem already? Between about 12:52 and before 1am, Leon Goldstein must walk down Berner St, be witnessed by Fanny Mortimer, but Fanny must not see anyone enter the gates. She supposedly sees Goldstein just before turning in for the night, toward the end of a period of about 10 minutes at her doorstep.

Brown's story does not make much sense when juxtaposed with Mortimer/Goldstein. Perhaps Goldstein did not pass through the street when we think did. Note that Fanny was not specific about the time she saw him, only saying that it was "previously". The ball is now in your court ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Apologies NotBlamed for not getting back to you. Thanks for the info.

No prob. Thanks.

Its taking me a bit of time to absorb the information. Yes I see what you are saying. I think there is some reason to believe that the young girl making the report is Spooner's girlfriend. I am thinking after reading other comments that the girl was standing with her boyfriend North of the club. Maybe in Hampshire Court or even Sanders Street or Battys gardens the other side of the road.

Not sure how you're placing them there. Care to elaborate?

The reason for this is that she uses the phrase a 'bisecting thoroughfare' not a street. It appears she does not mention the Beehive, perhaps they move to that point later through the thoroughfare or they have made there way there after leaving the Beehive. A better location for an embrace maybe.

As I said in that post, I don't think we can claim as fact that the young woman, whatever her identify, actually spoke to the press let alone used the phrase 'bisecting thoroughfare'. The same, by the way, holds true for the 'measured, heavy tramp' report. People can claim that Fanny Mortimer is the subject of that report all they like. I'm not convinced.

If the young woman spoke to the press, then when did this occur? After sunrise when the couple returned to the scene of the crime? This might seem a rather academic question but think about how critical a couple at the board school corner could be as eyewitnesses, in the 20 or so minutes she claimed to be standing nearby. Yet we hear nothing of this couple from the police or at the inquest.

Spooner makes a point that they were at the Beehive for quite a while. maybe they were maybe not. What we do know with certainty is that when the 'searchers' found Spooner he was close to his home address and previously him and his girlfriend were walking through the area one way or another.

Still thinking about the couple Brown saw. I don't think that was Spooner and his girlfriend. Wrong end of street for me.

NW

It is the wrong end. Diemschitz independently places them near Grove St.

[The Rookie Detective]

So unless there were 3 couples, then Brown either saw Spooner and his gf, or he saw Stride with Overcoat man either before or after she was assaulted by BS man....or Stride was Spooner's date.


3 couples
Spooner and his gf
Spooner and Stride
Overcoat man and Stride


Take your pick

Bearing in mind that Spooner was under 25 years old.

Bearing in mind that the only other male other than overcoat man to be seen wearing an overcoat, was Pipeman.

Bearing in mind that that Overcoat man and Pipe man's relative heights were noticeably different

Bearing in mind that Brown's sighting almost certainly occurred after Schwartz saw Stride being assaulted by BS man

Bearing in mind that the couple seen by Brown were not there when Brown was on his way to the shop, meaning they had only arrived after Brown had gone into the shop.

Bearing in mind that the only viable window where Schwartz's eyewitness account could have occurred, was either before Brown left his house, or when Brown was in the shop. Otherwise either Goldstein and/or Mortimer would have seen or heard something.

Lots to consider

[The Rookie Detective]

Apologies NotBlamed for not getting back to you. Thanks for the info.

Its taking me a bit of time to absorb the information. Yes I see what you are saying. I think there is some reason to believe that the young girl making the report is Spooner's girlfriend. I am thinking after reading other comments that the girl was standing with her boyfriend North of the club. Maybe in Hampshire Court or even Sanders Street or Battys gardens the other side of the road.

The reason for this is that she uses the phrase a 'bisecting thoroughfare' not a street. It appears she does not mention the Beehive, perhaps they move to that point later through the thoroughfare or they have made there way there after leaving the Beehive. A better location for an embrace maybe.

Spooner makes a point that they were at the Beehive for quite a while. maybe they were maybe not. What we do know with certainty is that when the 'searchers' found Spooner he was close to his home address and previously him and his girlfriend were walking through the area one way or another.

Still thinking about the couple Brown saw. I don't think that was Spooner and his girlfriend. Wrong end of street for me.

NW

So unless there were 3 couples, then Brown either saw Spooner and his gf, or he saw Stride with Overcoat man either before or after she was assaulted by BS man....or Stride was Spooner's date.


3 couples
Spooner and his gf
Spooner and Stride
Overcoat man and Stride


Take your pick

[New Waterloo]

Apologies NotBlamed for not getting back to you. Thanks for the info.

Its taking me a bit of time to absorb the information. Yes I see what you are saying. I think there is some reason to believe that the young girl making the report is Spooner's girlfriend. I am thinking after reading other comments that the girl was standing with her boyfriend North of the club. Maybe in Hampshire Court or even Sanders Street or Battys gardens the other side of the road.

The reason for this is that she uses the phrase a 'bisecting thoroughfare' not a street. It appears she does not mention the Beehive, perhaps they move to that point later through the thoroughfare or they have made there way there after leaving the Beehive. A better location for an embrace maybe.

Spooner makes a point that they were at the Beehive for quite a while. maybe they were maybe not. What we do know with certainty is that when the 'searchers' found Spooner he was close to his home address and previously him and his girlfriend were walking through the area one way or another.

Still thinking about the couple Brown saw. I don't think that was Spooner and his girlfriend. Wrong end of street for me.

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

What's also interesting about Spooner, is that he was a violent man.

In January 1889, just over 3 months after Stride's murder, a group of men (that included Spooner) ambushed a Jewish horse and cart driver named Isaac Lazarus; along with Issac's wife and father-in-law, in Christian Street, in broad daylight.

Spooner allegedly grabbed Isaac by the hair and threw him to the ground.

Spooner and another man also struck Issac's wife before stealing the cart by driving it off.

It was later found abandoned outside a police station in Stepney.


I would suggest that a man who is confident enough to be seen violently throwing a Jewish man to the floor and then striking his wife, in Christian Street, just a few months after the murder of Stride, is someone who warrants a closer look.


His brazen behaviour speaks of a man who thought he was untouchable.

When we look at his peculiar timings stated for the night Stride was murdered, I would suggest that he should be considered a key person of interest in the case.


One newspaper reported that Spooner was accompanied by a large group of men; around 30, when the assault on Isaac Lazarus took place.


And to abandon the stolen cart outside Arbour Square police station in Stepney, is perhaps indicative of a man who was taking the p***.


There is nothing likeable or trustworthy about him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're quite right. Humble apologies.

No problem George. I have no sense of direction so I was expecting to have got it wrong somehow.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Rookie I agree with you about Spooner not mentioning the horse and cart. In fact I am not sure if anyone says anything about the horse and cart on their initial arrival. Not sure but were there stables at the back? Although considering Diemschutz ran for help (I think he said he left the horse standing in the yard) it would have been there on his return and its strange it doesn't get a mention by people attending the scene.

What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

What happened to the horse and cart after that, is a bit of a mystery. Presumably someone moved them to the backyard, after Diemschitz runs off to find a policeman.

As for Spooner at the scene. Yes very confident and describes what he saw in the yard with precision, in fact like a professional, which is at odds regarding what he says about times.

Not really sure about the lifting of her chin either. Presumably to check if she was still alive and also in the darkness of the yard is able to say very quickly that Stride had a piece of paper in her hand and what the contents were. Had the cachous spilled out of the paper when the body was found. (cant recall) Otherwise he had XRAY vision!

In #488 you say "I have re read and re read Spooners Inquest evidence...". Have you noticed anything odd about the following?

Spooner: I noticed she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned to her breast.

Which hand was the paper in?

By the way, in #484 you asked about Spooner leaving his girlfriend very vulnerable. In #486 I gave a detailed reply. No comment?

[New Waterloo]

Hi Rookie I agree with you about Spooner not mentioning the horse and cart. In fact I am not sure if anyone says anything about the horse and cart on their initial arrival. Not sure but were there stables at the back? Although considering Diemschutz ran for help (I think he said he left the horse standing in the yard) it would have been there on his return and its strange it doesn't get a mention by people attending the scene.

As for Spooner at the scene. Yes very confident and describes what he saw in the yard with precision, in fact like a professional, which is at odds regarding what he says about times.

Not really sure about the lifting of her chin either. Presumably to check if she was still alive and also in the darkness of the yard is able to say very quickly that Stride had a piece of paper in her hand and what the contents were. Had the cachous spilled out of the paper when the body was found. (cant recall) Otherwise he had XRAY vision!

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

I find it odd that despite Spooner having worked as a professional horse keeper (for a biscuit company) he makes no mention of Diemschitz's horse that was still in the yard.

Of all the individuals at the scene that night, Spooner was the one man who knew horses.

He certainly appears to have had the confidence to take charge.

He physically touched the body after all; despite not being a member of the club.

Only a small and likely insignificant observation, but interesting nonetheless.

[New Waterloo]

I have re read and re read Spooners Inquest evidence and in particular what he says about times. He states that he left a pub on commercial road (some reports say this was a pub on the corner of Settle street and Commercial Road which would be the Gloster Arms) at closing time 12 midnight.

He then states he and his girlfriend walked quietly to the Beehive pub corner.

However. He says that they were at that spot from 12.30 till 1.

Where were they from 12 till 12.30? Beehive to Commercial Road is not very far. He is trying to fill time gaps in my mind.

Realistically if he joins the searchers at 1.10am thats over an hour from when he left the commercial road pub. His evidence about Strides body is very very precise. His timing is a mess and that is a bit suspicious to me

NW

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I did say to cross over the road when getting to number 37. Number 37 is on the same side as the pub.

You're quite right. Humble apologies.