An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

Probably this, that and the other? Why not just quote the women?

Of course that’s what you want because it limits the circumstances which helps fuel your thinking. When people give statements they don’t usually bother to describe the exact circumstances as this woman clearly didn’t. But we know that there was singing…we know that there was a downstairs room too…we know that she wasn’t the only person working at the club….we know that the incident occurred out on the street. And yet you want the circumstance to appear as if this woman was alone in a funeral parlour.

[Herlock Sholmes]

These people do ...

Eagle: If 15 minutes elapsed from the first man's departure and the Ripper's arrival, at what time do you suppose I tried the front door of the club? There was no woman in the gateway when I arrived back.

Mortimer: I didn't see any of this. When do you suppose I was at my doorstep?

Goldstein: I didn't see any of this either. When do you suppose I was walking though Berner St?

Brown: I'm almost certain I saw the deceased on my way home from the chandler's shop. Where do you suppose Stride was then, if not at the board school corner?

Diemschitz: I got home right on one o'clock. I didn't see any man leaving the yard, so I presume you suppose the Ripper had already left by then?

Kozebrodski: When I went into the yard with Mr Diemschitz, I saw the dead woman by candlelight. Her blood had already flowed down to the side door of the club. I think the murderer must have left a few minutes before Mr Diemschitz arrived back from the market. Do you agree?

After Pipeman left how long would we require as a minimum for BS man to have left and another man to arrive, kill Stride and leave? A minute, two?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Of course that’s what you want because it limits the circumstances which helps fuel your thinking.

You're right - I use the evidence as both a basis for and a constraint on my theories. This is as it should be but is in contrast to those who see the evidence as obstacles to be 'worked around'.

When people give statements they don’t usually bother to describe the exact circumstances as this woman clearly didn’t. But we know that there was singing…we know that there was a downstairs room too…we know that she wasn’t the only person working at the club….we know that the incident occurred out on the street. And yet you want the circumstance to appear as if this woman was alone in a funeral parlour.

I don't want the evidence to 'appear' anything - I want it to speak for itself and not be spun to keep it compatible with truth preferences.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

After Pipeman left how long would we require as a minimum for BS man to have left and another man to arrive, kill Stride and leave? A minute, two?

As you're already 3 minutes short without another man arriving, that extra minute or two minimum is a problem on top of a problem.

I'll leave it to you and c.d. to discuss the maximum.

[Tom_Wescott]

Times: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Morning Advertiser: I went in doors about midnight. I did not hear anything till I heard murder being called in the street just after one o’clock on the Sunday morning.

Insightful that no one bothered to check the press reports, or if they did, refrained from posting.

What might the women in the kitchen - behind that partially open door - have heard had there been an incident at the gateway, if Marshall could hear murder being called in the streets, while inside and block away?

We don't know when Marshall heard or who he heard it from. A crowd gathered rather quickly and word would have spread. The only ones who didn't hear about it right away were the constables on patrol in the area. Smith heard not a thing and only figured out something was wrong when he returned on his beat to find two constables and Spooner there. Blackwell's assistant had already been summoned and arrived right after Smith. Yet Marshall at #64 heard it. Weird. But that's why the Ripper selected Berner Street and Mitre Square. They were outside the hot zones. Same reason he moved into Bethnal Green after Tabram. After the double event the police figured this out and had areas like Castle Alley more carefully watched.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're right - I use the evidence as both a basis for and a constraint on my theories. This is as it should be but is in contrast to those who see the evidence as obstacles to be 'worked around'.



I don't want the evidence to 'appear' anything - I want it to speak for itself and not be spun to keep it compatible with truth preferences.

So…as I’ve always suspected and you believe that every time quoted should be taken as set-in-stone.

As long as that’s now established we can all understand the reason behind your thinking.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you're already 3 minutes short without another man arriving, that extra minute or two minimum is a problem on top of a problem.

I'll leave it to you and c.d. to discuss the maximum.

Again, you are so rigidly obsessed with set-in-stone times.

[New Waterloo]

I have thought about this before and I know its been mentioned but impotant enough to be mentioned again. Its often remarked how Mrs Diemschutz didnt her anything although the door to the downstairs was ajar.

At the inquest Diemschutz says;

I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.

I am not sure if the several members were downstairs. I assume that what he means.

They would not have been quiet I am sure

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

If we talk about him being disturbed anyone observing the scene would realise he would be disturbed much of the time. People on doorsteps, couples walking about, policemen, comings and goings, Lave exercising. He was disturbed well before going into that yard. He knew he had a tight time frame to pull this off.

He would be watching that yard, preparing his move

If it was JTR he knew what he was doing. If it was JTR who killed Stride he was no bumbling fool. He had his wits about him.

The killer is there. In that scene.

(bit like an Agatha Christie this)

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So…as I’ve always suspected and you believe that every time quoted should be taken as set-in-stone.

As long as that’s now established we can all understand the reason behind your thinking.

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

Although officially a Socialist club - as stated by Wess at the inquest - there were both Socialist and Anarchist members, and at the time of the murders tensions between the two groups existed and would continue to grow. Perhaps a politically motivated Anarchist decided he would cause the club some trouble.

[Abby Normal]

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

What is that supposed to mean?

[GBinOz]

What is that supposed to mean?

I was wondering the same thing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Have those women in the kitchen got you all hot and bothered?

A strange point.

The women in the kitchen said that they heard nothing unusual; nothing that gave them any reason to stop and wonder if something untoward was going on. They were in a kitchen focused on doing whatever it was that they were doing; possibly going in and out. They would likely have been talking; maybe laughing and joking which wouldn’t be ideal for homing in on sounds coming from the street. They had men in the upstairs room singing songs that could be heard from the street. There was also a downstairs room so there was possibly men talking in there too. And you are somehow surprised that they didn’t hear or notice a woman making three not very loud sounds and a man shouting one word at a man who was just a few yards away.

If it surprises you that these women heard nothing them I’m afraid that you are easily surprised. You appear to find everyday occurrences remarkable. Things that we are all aware of as occurring day in, day out all around us you view as a miracle.

[c.d.]

For JTR starting to work on Stride knowing there were lots of people the other side of that door is a massive risk. Perhaps he knew all along of the massive risk but at all costs he needed the 'kill' to be at the Jewish club. Cut throat and away.

That could certainly be the case but it could also be that the club itself was a complete non-factor and that for some reason he had specifically targeted Stride. So, it was kill her at the club or not at all.

Or could his original plan have been for him to get her to go somewhere else and she refused? So there were no more options.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As Andrew finds Israel Schwartz such a fly in the ripperological ointment let’s delete him for now. Schwartz has left the building. Let’s just go through the likely scenarios without him.

We can be entirely certain the PC. Schwartz passed along Berner Street and we have no reason to believe that he invented his sighting of the man and woman but there are two things that we can’t be entirely certain of though. One is the exact time that he’d passed although he estimated between 12.30-12.35, if he wasn’t actually within that range we can feel confident that he wouldn’t have been far out, and although he was confident that the woman was Stride, and that we have no reason to question his trustworthiness, I think that we should allow for the possibility, however small, that he could have been mistaken. Anyone can make a mistake.

Joseph Lave is the worst of witnesses because the versions of what he did that night vary from newspaper to newspaper but if he was actually there then all that we can say is that he spent time in the yard and came out to the pavement and looked into the street. Although we don’t know how long he was looking out onto the street for we get the impression that it can’t have been for long when we consider what he didn’t see. He didn’t see Smith, the couple (surely he’d have mentioned them?) Eagle returning, Fanny Mortimer, Liz Stride or her killer.

Morris Eagle said that he’d returned to the club at around 12.40 after taking his girlfriend home. We have no way of knowing if the police checked out his story but that fact that it was easily checkable gives us a level of confidence that he did what he said that he did. As we can’t check his time against other times though we have to make allowances of course (much as this blasphemy might offend certain persons). Eagle didn’t mention seeing Lave or the couple across the street so the likeliest is that by the time that he returned Lave had gone back inside the club and that the couple had moved on and were out of sight.

Then we have the problematical Fanny Mortimer. We have no reason to question her honesty although he memory/judgment might have been less reliable than she herself believed. She said that she had been on her doorstep for ‘nearly the whole time’ between 12.30 and 1.00 but this is shown to have been untrue when we list what she didn’t see - PC. Smith, the couple, Lave, Eagle, Stride and her killer. She certainly saw Leon Goldstein but we don’t even know what time he passed. So how long might she actually have been on her doorstep? The evidence only ‘proves’ a minute or two which is the estimated time for Goldstein to pass but we have to assume that she was being honest when she estimated her ‘nearly the whole time,’ so I’d suggest that she spent somewhere around 15 minutes and just misjudged it as longer (perhaps after mistaking another’s footsteps for those of the Constable that she was used to seeing/hearing closer to 12.30.)

So where does this leave us. In one scenario we would have the killer and Stride arriving at the yard (together or separately) Stride being killed and the killer leaving in the space between Eagle’s return and Fanny going onto her doorstep. We can put exact times to neither but it’s entirely possible that this might have been between 12.37 and 12.42. So a gap of 5 minutes or maybe a minute or two longer. Easily enough of course.

Another scenario would be for Eagle to have returned at around 12.37, Fanny heard his step and thought they were those of a Constable. She goes onto her doorstep until around 12.55 (18 minutes or so on her step) leaving another gap of 5 minutes or so for Stride and her killer to arrive, the murder occur and the killer to flee.

I’ll state the obvious - Stride was killed and someone killed her and neither of them materialised in Dutfield’s Yard. So the above are 2 absolutely possibilities. So what about Israel Schwartz? Let’s un-delete him and see where he can fit (or not, as the case may be)

One possibility is that, as can occur with anyone, he simply got his time wrong. He’d walked along Berner Street not long before 12.30 and had seen ann incident which was entirely unconnected to later events. Then again, maybe it was Stride or maybe it was just a random woman who slightly resembled her and wore similar clothing and Schwartz, after seeing the body in the mortuary, convinced himself that it must have been the same person. And as it must have been the victim then it must have been around 12.45 (just before the body was found at 1.00) that he’d passed.

Another possibility has the incident occurring between Eagle’s return, exact time unknown, and Fanny going onto her doorstep, exact time unknown. A period that could have been from 12.37 say, to 12.45 (with Fanny mistaking BS man’s steps for a Constable’s.) An easy 8 minutes. He could have occurred in far less time of course.

The other possibility is that Fanny came onto her doorstep after Eagle had returned at around 12.37. She went back inside around 15,16,17 minutes later at 12.52, 12.53 or 12.54 leaving around 6, 7 or 8 minutes for Stride and killer to arrive, the murder to occur and the killer to leave the street. The Schwartz incident would easily fit.


After the above we are left with only one question - what the hell is the problem?


We can come up with numerous scenarios for this murder and not one of them require anyone lying or anyone to be pretending to have been anywhere that they weren’t. What draws some toward suggestions of deception? One thing is for certain - it’s not the evidence.