An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[Herlock Sholmes]

“Not very loudly” tends to mean “not very loudly.” Why some people find this problematic I’ll never know? “Of low volume,” “not piercing,” “lacking in loud noise.” It’s why no one heard the incident.

[Abby Normal]

Coroner: If there were singing and dancing going on would you have been likely to have heard the cry of a woman in great distress-a cry of murder, for instance-from the yard?
Eagle: Oh, we should certainly have heard such a cry.

Whereas you conveniently left out the evidence. Also, the rain had stopped.

no i didnt. the (not very loud) cries were from the street, and wetness from recent rain would still muffle sounds.

[Tom_Wescott]

This is from an interview with Mrs Mortimer by the Evening news 1 Oct:
A man touched her face and said it was quite warm.

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

I don't believe that it can be disputed that the man referred to as touching Stride's face was Spooner. The young man and his sweetheart told Mortimer they were standing on what could only be the corner of Berner and Fairclough, where Brown observed a couple standing. It seems to me that the couple had, as had Mortimer, gone to the yard after the alarm had been raised and Mortimer was talking to them in that situation. Were that the case, the young man was unlikely to have been Spooner, whom Mortimer could probably have identified, and the young woman could not have been Stride purely on the fact that the young woman was talking to Mortimer and Stride was dead.

You're way, way behind in the discussion of Mortimer's couple.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

In the first paragraph you suggest a possible connection between Schwartz and the club. In the second, a hypothetically lying Schwartz gets incredibly lucky that the street is empty at that time. Could Eagle have told Wess the street was empty just before 12:45? Could Lave have confirmed this? Could Eagle have told Wess he believed he had passed the victim on the street, talking to a man, and thus placing an incident a few minutes after his entry to the club was relatively risk free?

In #479, we can see the club paywalling itself to make money by giving journalists "explanations about the murder". Did the Socialist Club's profiteering get out of hand, when Wess's story telling landed him in a hole of own making? What are the chances that Israel Schwartz would have gone to the police about what he saw? Lucky Wess.

You also claim that Brown's dark overcoat man is another remarkable coincidence. This is who you're talking about ...

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Pipeman ran off.

You're misunderstanding. My point is that because the police, at least initially, took Schwartz seriously, and because the contemporary sources do not give us a factual base for discounting Schwartz, we're rather forced to take his evidence on board. I don't believe much in coincidence, so I don't see Brown's man as any sort of coincidence. He is the last man seen with Stride before she's found dead. Full stop. Bern suggests he's BS Man, I've suggested he's Pipeman. He may be a third man, but that's less likely. Frustratingly, if Schwartz was a liar, then BS Man and Pipeman are mere figments. But it's not possible to conclude that Schwartz was a liar, so we have to conclude based on the available evidence that what he described happened just before Brown came on the scene.

Schwartz ran off. And kept running. Pipeman stopped at some point. Where did he go once he stopped?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GBinOz]

This is from an interview with Mrs Mortimer by the Evening news 1 Oct:
A man touched her face and said it was quite warm.

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

I don't believe that it can be disputed that the man referred to as touching Stride's face was Spooner. The young man and his sweetheart told Mortimer they were standing on what could only be the corner of Berner and Fairclough, where Brown observed a couple standing. It seems to me that the couple had, as had Mortimer, gone to the yard after the alarm had been raised and Mortimer was talking to them in that situation. Were that the case, the young man was unlikely to have been Spooner, whom Mortimer could probably have identified, and the young woman could not have been Stride purely on the fact that the young woman was talking to Mortimer and Stride was dead.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have come far pilgrim. A definitive post on the realities of timelines. I entirely agree....hang on...can someone please check the temperature in the infernal realms of perdition.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apparently, you need more time, but is this the right time of night?

Coroner: When you were found what direction were you going in?
Lamb: I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.

Crucially, the Times reported also recorded the following, straight after.

Lamb: All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

As Smith was due to take up some or all of the responsibility of the fixed-duty officer at 1am, I doubt he had stopped for a sandwich just prior.

What makes you think that Smith was due to take over some of the fixed point officers duties?

If I recall correctly from Neil Bell, fixed point officers were relieved at the end of their shift by a sergeant on a round? If that was the case then he couldn’t have got to all fixed point officers at exactly 1.00.

[Herlock Sholmes]

C: Was she on the pavement?
S: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

My poor phrasing. I meant to suggest that she was a little closer to Commercial Rd than the yard is. Not that she was nearer that road than the yard. As that leaves Smith a short distance to walk to get to the yard, I could round up to a whole minute.

How many yards is ‘a few.’ It could have been 5.

If it were an estimate - and I'm not sure how you can claim to know that for a fact - then what Smith is telling us is that his final beat before getting to the yard was within regulation. In other words, nothing had occurred between seeing the woman with a flower and his arrival at the yard, to cause his round trip to go beyond 30 minutes.

The fact that he gives a range and not a time (like 1.00) shows that he was estimating. 12.30-12.35 isn’t a time. It’s an approximation.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

you conveniently left out the not very loudly part.

Coroner: If there were singing and dancing going on would you have been likely to have heard the cry of a woman in great distress-a cry of murder, for instance-from the yard?
Eagle: Oh, we should certainly have heard such a cry.

Whereas you conveniently left out the evidence. Also, the rain had stopped.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Over the years I've considered that Schwartz may have been lying. The reasons for this are that the Star report (a police plant, yes, but perhaps not entirely without some factual accuracy) has Schwartz living on Berner Street until that week. Schwartz goes to the police with his own interpreter, as did Goldstein (i.e. William Wess) and William Wess appears to have known about the Schwartz story as a muddled version of it appears in the press. This potential connection between Schwartz and the IWEC club opened the possibility of the anarchists doing some damage control by presenting the police with two obviously gentile suspects, replete with Semitic slur. There's also the fact that Schwartz disappears from not only the records, but the memories of police at about November 1st, 1888. I find that odd.

Having said all that, when I really dug deep into the evidence, it stood out to me that if Schwartz was lying, he was extraordinary lucky, because his lie depends on Berner Street being absolutely empty at around 12:45 for his story to not be immediately disproved. Low and behold, it turns out this was true. And Brown puts a man wearing a dark overcoat in the street at this time. Another remarkable coincidence if Schwartz's story had been bunk. What I ended up concluding is that while it's possible Schwartz's story is a hoax, the likelihood is something like what Swanson describes in his October 19th report did, in fact, take place. His description of the men is probably not spot on and more than the word 'Lipski' was likely spoken, but he couldn't understand it. But unless he was a remarkably fortunate liar, we have to take his story on board.

In any event, what he witnessed was not Stride's murder but some sort of prelude.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

In the first paragraph you suggest a possible connection between Schwartz and the club. In the second, a hypothetically lying Schwartz gets incredibly lucky that the street is empty at that time. Could Eagle have told Wess the street was empty just before 12:45? Could Lave have confirmed this? Could Eagle have told Wess he believed he had passed the victim on the street, talking to a man, and thus placing an incident a few minutes after his entry to the club was relatively risk free?

In #479, we can see the club paywalling itself to make money by giving journalists "explanations about the murder". Did the Socialist Club's profiteering get out of hand, when Wess's story telling landed him in a hole of own making? What are the chances that Israel Schwartz would have gone to the police about what he saw? Lucky Wess.

You also claim that Brown's dark overcoat man is another remarkable coincidence. This is who you're talking about ...

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Pipeman ran off.

[Abby Normal]

Including screams, I presume.

you conveniently left out the not very loudly part.

[GBinOz]

Let’s imagine that I’m looking down on Berner Street on the night of the murder and I’m looking at a clock which will give us THE time; the time against which all others will be compared.

Louis Diemschitz sees that the Baker’s clock tells him that it’s 1.00 by my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 12.55.

Diemschitz finds the body and he believes that it is still 1.00 by my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 12.55.30.

Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky go for a Constable but return with Spooner in tow at what he would think was around 1.02 but by my clock, THE clock, it’s actually 12.57.30.

Morris Eagle goes for a Constable and returns with Lamb at what Diemschitz might have felt was 1.05 but my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 1.00.

Smith turns into Berner Street at what he believed was 1.00 but my clock, THE clock, tells me that it’s actually 1.01.

If Smith’s beat took 25/30 minutes then we have him seeing Stride at between 12.31 and 12.36.

You have come far pilgrim. A definitive post on the realities of timelines. I entirely agree....hang on...can someone please check the temperature in the infernal realms of perdition.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And I’d also like to add a general question. Were PC’s always totally honest? Or do we hear of some getting fired for their dodgy behaviour on their beat? So can we be certain that Smith wasn’t running a little behind time? Maybe he stopped a bit longer for a sandwich? Maybe he stopped and chatted to someone that he knew? Was he going to admit it? We can’t assume that these men were perfect. They were poorly trained, poorly paid men trudging the dangerous streets in all weather.

Apparently, you need more time, but is this the right time of night?

Coroner: When you were found what direction were you going in?
Lamb: I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.

Crucially, the Times reported also recorded the following, straight after.

Lamb: All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

As Smith was due to take up some or all of the responsibility of the fixed-duty officer at 1am, I doubt he had stopped for a sandwich just prior.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was there a second Liz Stride that only you know about? PC. Smith: “She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street.”

So she was nowhere near to Commercial Road and massively closer to the yard.

C: Was she on the pavement?
S: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

My poor phrasing. I meant to suggest that she was a little closer to Commercial Rd than the yard is. Not that she was nearer that road than the yard. As that leaves Smith a short distance to walk to get to the yard, I could round up to a whole minute.

I’m suggesting the obvious. That Smith saw a clock which told him that it was 1.00 when he turned into Berner Street. He arrived at his 12.30/35 estimate by deducing 25/30 minutes from 1.00. This is supported by the fact that his 12.30/35 is clearly an estimate.

If it were an estimate - and I'm not sure how you can claim to know that for a fact - then what Smith is telling us is that his final beat before getting to the yard was within regulation. In other words, nothing had occurred between seeing the woman with a flower and his arrival at the yard, to cause his round trip to go beyond 30 minutes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And I’d also like to add a general question. Were PC’s always totally honest? Or do we hear of some getting fired for their dodgy behaviour on their beat? So can we be certain that Smith wasn’t running a little behind time? Maybe he stopped a bit longer for a sandwich? Maybe he stopped and chatted to someone that he knew? Was he going to admit it? We can’t assume that these men were perfect. They were poorly trained, poorly paid men trudging the dangerous streets in all weather.