The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi LC,

Pipeman "came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off".

A doorway is different to a door. It is a small sheltered enclosure just outside the door that would present a prefect refuge for a pipe smoker to attend to the re-lighting of his pipe out of the wind. He could have been thus engaged when he heard the dispute at the gateway and stepped out to see what was going on.

Cheers, George

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/4963-steps-to-the-nelson?p=197010#post197010

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The handkerchief was stained with fruit, it was thought to be blood, but turned out to be fruit stains.
I can't think of another reason for her holding a piece of paper in her fingers unless it was to keep her fingers dry, or unstained.

I don't understand why this apparent need to keep her fingers dry required the use of both the handkerchief and a piece of newspaper. Was this piece of paper also found to have fruit stains?

Any grapes would be squashed if the fingers were clenched tight, yes, I agree. Regardless of their condition the doctors say they found no grapes.
But.......if the grapes came out of her hand they would fall between her chest and the wall, in the darkness. Her face & knees were close to the house wall. So everybody in the yard was standing behind her.
Once they come out of her fingers, they fall into darkness, and out of sight of everyone, until the body is moved As they were black then they were likely trodden into the mud and the blood as they gather round to lift the body onto the Ambulance, that was about 4:00am.
The yard was swilled down about 5:00am.

I can imagine that occurring (just), but only if there is no grape stalk. I can't imagine a stalk next to the wall being missed. Reid went over the area very carefully.

I wonder how obvious this piece of paper in her right hand was? For some reason Abraham Herschburg seems to have missed it ...

In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

Presumably he meant the left hand. Can we be 100% sure, though?

Blackwell: I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view.

Yet Herschburg was able to count the cachous? I find that hard to believe. Let's go back to Diemschitz (to the press) ...

Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes.

Perhaps Diemschitz misperceived the contents of her left hand, which was on the ground and probably in mud. I suggest that Diemschitz could see 'sweetmeats' clearly, just as Herschburg did, but that these were in her right hand. Her left hand also held cachous in a piece of paper. At some point the cachous in the right hand fell out, perhaps when this hand got smeared with blood.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I find it intriguing that Swanson makes no mention of the pub on the corner (Nelson), Pipeman is just 'there', somewhere.
We should keep in mind someone changed the pipe (police statement), into a knife (press statement).
I don't think we can rule out the press being responsible for this to make the story more exciting. So if they did, what else did they insert?
Perhaps they placed Pipeman at the Nelson, and they had him coming out of a door, or doorway?
At the end of the day, can we trust the press version of his statement?

I find the police account more exciting, and I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that some devious character on the street would be capable of lighting up and then pursuing a man for his money and valuable items, while brandishing a knife. The pipe versus knife thing is a false dichotomy.

I agree that Pipe & Knifeman is just 'there', and the Nelson on the corner is an irrelevant distraction, but Swanson's report suggests that that somewhere can be narrowed to being - when he is first spotted - on the school side and north (closer to Commercial Rd) than Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would say yes, it increases the likelihood, but from a very low level. If Schwartz had actually seen Pipe Man come out from inside a public house, I would think it very unlikely that Pipe Man was a lookout. If he were a lookout, I'd think he would have already been outside.

Perhaps they were looking out for each other? I'd suggest the two men were as thick as thieves.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

One possibility is that the assault made him feel he should get out of the area. Another is that in any case, he wasn't going to stand there forever, and that happened to be the time that he decided to move on. Another is that he really was following Schwartz, for one reason or another.

Comments from Swanson and Abberline considered together, suggest that the second man walked then ran, but didn't run as far as the railway arch. A man fleeing in fear would run initially before slowing to a walk, would he not? A man who decided to move on would not run at all. That leaves your third possibility - the man was pursuing Schwartz with intent. Given Schwartz, by his own account, is only guilty of leaving a woman in distress to her own devices, what could be the motivation for the second man's pursuit? I would suggest - money.

[GBinOz]

Moving back to Packer again could I suggest this. When Sgt White goes to number 44 Berner Street to obtain statements Packer decides not to get involved (for whatever reason) and says that he saw and heard nothing and only heard about the murder later in the morning.

NW

Hi NW,

Packer was in the business of selling fruit and vegetables from his little shop. Why would he see selling some grapes to a customer as anything unusual, or in any way related to the murder. He probably thought nothing of it until the grapes became a focal point afterwards.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Best & Gardner were in the press 1st Oct., Packer changed his story about the 4th.

[New Waterloo]

Moving back to Packer again could I suggest this. When Sgt White goes to number 44 Berner Street to obtain statements Packer decides not to get involved (for whatever reason) and says that he saw and heard nothing and only heard about the murder later in the morning.

Can we really accept this. Even if we believe the street was relatively quiet earlier it certainly would not have been quiet after the discovery of Strides body and the arrival of the police. There must have been quite a lot of noise, voices, hob nail boots on cobbles, all sorts.

In any case the two so called 'Private Detectives' arrive on the scene a couple of days later and say they found a grape stalk in the yard. Why would this be fabricated. Even if they are scheming con artists it would take a huge stretch of the imagination to thing they could somehow make a story out of that. So lets suppose grape stalk in hand they knock on the door of the obvious person. Packer the grape seller.

Packer now has a problem. He is the only grape seller close to the club. Well very close. He has no option but to come clean and with a bit of persuasion admit that he sold the grapes.

His later story seems quite convincing. For example he describes the man with Stride as wearing a 'frock coat' and the witnesses Best and Gardiner who saw Stride earlier in the pub say that the man was wearing a 'morning coat' which I believe is very similar to a 'frock coat'. How would Packer have known about the description given by Best and Gardiner.

Was it in the Press before Packer makes his statement. I will have a look. Thoughts and help please.

NW

[New Waterloo]

Yes GB I think the sheltering is a good suggestion. Even if the rain has stopped sheltering would aid his pipe smoking I guess. The photo of the Nelson Pub on Berner Street does clearly show that the corner double door has an 'overhang' which would give some shelter to a person tucking himself in that doorway when the pub was closed.

NW

[GBinOz]

inspector Abberline was convinced that the assailant shouted Lipski, which was an anti-Jewish insult, at Schwartz.

Schwartz himself was unsure whether it was directed at him or at Pipe Man.

Maybe he sensed that it was shouted for Pipe Man's benefit, as a way of drawing his attention to Schwartz.

That would explain why Schwartz suspected that Pipe Man was following him.

And if Pipe Man did not come out of a pub or some other premises, then why would he suddenly have started walking in the same direction as Schwartz?

Hi PI,

I think you are pretty close to the mark. Pipeman is sheltering from the wind in the Nelson doorway relighting his pipe. He hears the dispute at the gateway and steps out to see what is happening. He sees a woman on the ground with a man (BSM) standing next to her shouting at another man (Schwartz) who appears to be trying to making an escape. He reacts by making a move towards Schwartz, but then thinks that he had better find out what actually transpired. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi NW,

Another possibility is that Schwartz didn't see Pipeman come out of any building. I don't think there's anything in Swanson's report that would indicate Pipeman exiting a building. I'm skeptical about the newspaper account, but even if we can trust it, it says that Pipeman "came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off", which I find ambiguous. It's possible that he had been standing in a doorway of a place that was closed.

Hi LC,

Pipeman "came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off".

A doorway is different to a door. It is a small sheltered enclosure just outside the door that would present a prefect refuge for a pipe smoker to attend to the re-lighting of his pipe out of the wind. He could have been thus engaged when he heard the dispute at the gateway and stepped out to see what was going on.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

No, because there was no burnt or fresh tobacco, presuming it didn't blow away.



To not stain her fingers? Who holds grapes in paper, while eating them?

Another problem is this comment from Diemschitz ...

Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes.

How can a hand be holding grapes while tightly clenched, without squashing the grapes and making a mess?

So, I'm still curious about that piece of paper.

Hi Andrew,

She would have been holding tightly to the stalk with the grapes still attached but outside of her grip.

Cheers, George

[Lewis C]

I find it intriguing that Swanson makes no mention of the pub on the corner (Nelson), Pipeman is just 'there', somewhere.
We should keep in mind someone changed the pipe (police statement), into a knife (press statement).
I don't think we can rule out the press being responsible for this to make the story more exciting. So if they did, what else did they insert?
Perhaps they placed Pipeman at the Nelson, and they had him coming out of a door, or doorway?
At the end of the day, can we trust the press version of his statement?

I agree, and the press version also has the man with the knife rush toward BS man, which sounds like another element that may have been added to make the story more exciting.

[Lewis C]

inspector Abberline was convinced that the assailant shouted Lipski, which was an anti-Jewish insult, at Schwartz.

Schwartz himself was unsure whether it was directed at him or at Pipe Man.

Maybe he sensed that it was shouted for Pipe Man's benefit, as a way of drawing his attention to Schwartz.

That would explain why Schwartz suspected that Pipe Man was following him.

And if Pipe Man did not come out of a pub or some other premises, then why would he suddenly have started walking in the same direction as Schwartz?

One possibility is that the assault made him feel he should get out of the area. Another is that in any case, he wasn't going to stand there forever, and that happened to be the time that he decided to move on. Another is that he really was following Schwartz, for one reason or another.

[Wickerman]

To not stain her fingers? Who holds grapes in paper, while eating them?

The handkerchief was stained with fruit, it was thought to be blood, but turned out to be fruit stains.
I can't think of another reason for her holding a piece of paper in her fingers unless it was to keep her fingers dry, or unstained.

Another problem is this comment from Diemschitz ...

Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes.

How can a hand be holding grapes while tightly clenched, without squashing the grapes and making a mess?

So, I'm still curious about that piece of paper.

Any grapes would be squashed if the fingers were clenched tight, yes, I agree. Regardless of their condition the doctors say they found no grapes.
But.......if the grapes came out of her hand they would fall between her chest and the wall, in the darkness. Her face & knees were close to the house wall. So everybody in the yard was standing behind her.
Once they come out of her fingers, they fall into darkness, and out of sight of everyone, until the body is moved As they were black then they were likely trodden into the mud and the blood as they gather round to lift the body onto the Ambulance, that was about 4:00am.
The yard was swilled down about 5:00am.