The Stride Murder

[Fleetwood Mac]

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.

I live in the country, have good experience of being around animals, wildlife photography is my main hobby, I've read a lot about animals over the years simply because I love animals of all shapes and sizes, from spiders to sheep to birds to pretty much any animal.

While not an expert on ponies, I know enough to know that the pony's sense of smell would have detected another creature that could have been a threat. Whether or not that creature was dead or alive is irrelevant, the pony would only have known that there was a potential threat.

Had the pony been wild and in the middle of an open field, it more than likely would have bolted. But, it's not, its owner has the pony to heel and it's not going anywhere, in the same way your dog wouldn't simply run off into the distance because of a threat, when your dog is with its owner.

[Lewis C]

I think your definition of the end of the incident is much better than just equating the whole incident to Schwartz's transit of Berner St.

Is Schwartz easily accounted for? Many posters have supposed that Woolf Wess was the man who translated for Schwartz at the police station. Wess was also the man who told a reporter about a man being chased in an easterly direction along Fairclough St, possibly being misidentified as the murderer. Interestingly, there is no BS man in that story, but what is more relevant to the current conversation is that we have a witness who places himself on Fairclough St, at and around 12:45 - Edward Spooner.

It is true that Mortimer gave no indication of having seen Stride at any time before Fanny enters the yard. However, we do know pretty much exactly where she was at about 12:39 - across the road from the Mortimer residence, talking to a man holding a parcel. To me, fitting this picture to that of Stride standing soon after in the gateway, seemingly alone, always feels like a kid trying to force two jigsaw puzzle pieces together, that don't quite fit.

Having BS-man go into the club, or Pipeman returning to kill with Stride conveniently waiting at the gates, are notions I find difficult to accept. Had BS-man walked off, and Pipeman not returned, what happens next? Is that when we say, "and that's when JtR came along"?


That is just what one report suggests (with timing a little different). However, that report is open to query.


It is the couple who mentioned 20 minutes, not Mortimer. Fanny spoke to the couple after the discovery, but it's not clear she had line of sight to the couple, where they had been standing.

If BS Man walked off and Pipeman didn't return, Stride's killer would have had to come along very soon afterward. The likelihood of him just happening to come along right after that seems rather remote to me, so if the Schwartz incident is real, it seems that Stride's killer is almost certainly either BS Man, Pipeman, or someone that was in the area at the time that Schwartz didn't see.

I don't think Mortimer saw the couple before the murder. She said that the man with the bag was the only one she saw. When I said that I thought that Mortimer was mistaken, I meant that it was my impression that Mortimer is our source for what the couple said, that the newspaper that reported what the couple said was reporting what Mortimer told the reporter that the couple said. I could be wrong about that.

[Wickerman]

Didn't Deiemschultz state or imply that he believed that the killer may have still been lurking further up in the yard, due to the reaction of the Pony? I got the impression that the Pony became unsettled.

The pony IS important, because presumably someone must have taken the Pony and Cart to the stable at the end of the yard after the body was discovered.
...

(Diemshutz)....Witness had with him a costermonger's barrow, and it was drawn by a pony. The pony was not kept in the yard of the club, but in George-yard, Cable-street. He drove home for the purpose of leaving his goods. He drove into the yard, and saw that both gates were wide open. It was rather dark there. He drove in as usual, and as he entered the gate his pony shied to the left. Witness looked to the ground on his right, and then saw something lying there, but was unable to distinguish what it was. Witness tried to feel the object with his whip before he got down. He then jumped down and struck a match. It was rather windy, but he was able to get a light sufficient to tell it was a woman lying there. He then went into the club, and saw his wife in the front room on the ground floor. He left his pony in the yard, just outside the club door, by itself.
Times, 2 Oct. 1888.

Someone had to later detach the cart and leave it at the end of the yard, then lead the horse to Cable-street, this after the police investigation.

[The Rookie Detective]

IF the killer was STILL lurking in the yard after the murder because Diemshcultz interrupted him, then the killer MUST have escaped when Diemschultz went into the club, because otherwise the killer would have been seen by the person who moved the horse and cart.

The other option of course, is that the killer went BACK INTO THE CLUB...and the only thing he had to do was to hide/dispose of the knife somewhere.

Perhaps when Eagle was sent to Leman Street, it gave him the chance to get rid of the knife he had just used on Stride?

Or Lave?


RD


RD

[Wickerman]

It does seem increasingly likely that Schwartz may have the wrong street. Something is definitely amiss here which to be honest we seem to be struggling with. However we seem to be getting somewhere all be it slowly. I think Schwartz would have described the location as the working men's club or similar name when talking of the gateway. The club was very well known and I believe only the Saturday before William Morris had made a speech at the club. There were many prominent political speakers and music events held there. As you all know it was not a sleepy venue. However I believe the newspaper report says that he was lodging in Berners Street so something is wrong. Do we know what number he lived at. I know I must not assume things but surely he would have identified the location in his report to the press and police. NW

What is so annoying is the story by Schwartz forms the backbone of the Stride murder case. Everyone debates whether BS-man was, or was not her killer. Yet, none of the dozen or more witnesses in the street that night saw anything described by Schwartz.
Both scenario's do not merge, there's no room around the 12:45 mark for Pipeman, BS-man & Schwartz to enter the scene between PC Smith, Mortimer, Eagle & Lave.
What we learn at the inquest does not marry with Schwartz's story.
Something, very simple, is wrong.

If we can identify the problem, so could the police. And, we do have expressions of doubt coming from police. They could see what we see, but they didn't try massage the two scenario's to make them fit. They didn't, because this is not how you deal with investigations.
The police accepted the presence of Parcel-man, he was their first published suspect - the man seen by PC Smith.
Later, BS-man & Pipeman were added, but then whispers of doubt began to emerge from police towards the latter two, we just don't know why.

I don't rule out the possibility the police discovered another altercation occurred in a nearby street and they may have pressed Schwartz to see if he was convinced which street he was in. Maybe they couldn't get confirmation from him.

[The Rookie Detective]

Didn't Deiemschultz state or imply that he believed that the killer may have still been lurking further up in the yard, due to the reaction of the Pony? I got the impression that the Pony became unsettled.

The pony IS important, because presumably someone must have taken the Pony and Cart to the stable at the end of the yard after the body was discovered.

Now IF the killer was still lurking in the yard when Diemschultz pulled into the gateway, the ONLY time that the killer had to escape the yard, would have been the moment that Diemschultz went into the club door to find his wife.

Otherwise, the killer must have escaped SOUTH down Berner Street as the cart approached from the north.


OR, the killer managed to escape through the building (disused?) on the northern side of the yard, which ran across the back of the club and then got into the courtyard that then ran east to west from Backchruch Lane and back into Berner Street, and came out just around the house of Charles Letchford at no.30 Berner Street.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

So, if the pony was left just outside the club (door, I presume you mean), where was the cart left in relation to the body?

The cart was past the body because Diemschultz had to go back to the body.

In other words, Diemschultx drove PAST Stride.


RD

[Wickerman]

Diemschitz: All at once my pony shied at some object on the right.

Was the pony startled? If yes, how would it have reacted? Or did the pony calmy take a slight left turn?

I want to see this replicated as closely as possible, or at least hear from some animal experts on what they make of the evidence.

It seems to me the horse would only shy away if it perceived a threat, in this case the horse knew the object was alive. At this moment Stride was not dead, the horse detected that, so it thought something was crouched ready to pounce, it shies away from the threat.

These costermonger's carts were two-wheeled affairs, about 6 ft wide, and as the gateway was only 9 ft wide, the cart enters down the center of the yard (barely 18" on either side), so if the horse had not shied away, the cart wheel could have struck the body.

What does the horse have to do with anything?

[Wickerman]

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.

Diem. says he reached down with his whip to prod the object, which means the horse has passed the woman, it is the cart that is now beside the body when he prods it, but urges the cart forward to make room for him getting down to investigate.

I've never understood the question about the horse, there is no consequence that I can see.

[New Waterloo]

It does seem increasingly likely that Schwartz may have the wrong street. Something is definitely amiss here which to be honest we seem to be struggling with. However we seem to be getting somewhere all be it slowly. I think Schwartz would have described the location as the working men's club or similar name when talking of the gateway. The club was very well known and I believe only the Saturday before William Morris had made a speech at the club. There were many prominent political speakers and music events held there. As you all know it was not a sleepy venue. However I believe the newspaper report says that he was lodging in Berners Street so something is wrong. Do we know what number he lived at. I know I must not assume things but surely he would have identified the location in his report to the press and police. NW

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I think you have the right idea, but according to the Daily News and The Evening News of 1 Oct Diemshitz said:

Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.

As you know, Diemshitz (and Smith) mistook Johnson for Blackwell, so if the above is to be accepted, Spooner and Smith failed to see grapes in her hand, but one would imagine that Johnson might have commented on seeing grapes, but he testified that he did not notice at the time that one of the hands was smeared with blood, so he may have also missed the grapes. Alternatively, Diemshitz was mistaken on his timing.

Cheers, George

Yes, I do agree with these points.

As both PC Lamb and Johnston commented on the blood being clotted, and they both held her hands, either one could have caused the transfer of clotted blood to her right hand. I just prefer the transfer was caused by PC Lamb, and Johnston, as you say above, missed it.

[Wickerman]

Presumably then, they were able to obtain additional facts and act further on the same information.

I was thinking more along the lines of them not being able to obtain location details from Schwartz. Perhaps they couldn't get him to recognise the club, the name of the yard, the pub on the corner, or a Board School opposite, all easily identifiable landmarks in daylight?
Is that due to the possibility he was in a different street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that I now understand your point, but surely if the pony was near the club door, and facing it, he wouldn't be troubled by the corpse.

Diemschitz: All at once my pony shied at some object on the right.

Was the pony startled? If yes, how would it have reacted? Or did the pony calmy take a slight left turn?

I want to see this replicated as closely as possible, or at least hear from some animal experts on what they make of the evidence.

[Doctored Whatsit]

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.

I think that I now understand your point, but surely if the pony was near the club door, and facing it, he wouldn't be troubled by the corpse.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I assume it was sideways at about 90% to the door, or as near as he could manage. What is the point exactly?

The pony and cart together would have been longer than the passage was wide.

I think it would be interesting to recreate the discovery, as closely as possible, and see if we learn anything. Would a pony in this hypothetical, shy to the left and then stand there calmly? I'll believe that that's what occurred, when I see it.