The Stride Murder

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Jews to make antisemitic remarks as fellow Jews passed them in the street.

Similarly, I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Polish Jews to attack Gentile women in Whitechapel.

I did issue a challenge for someone to come up with a single instance of that having happened.

No one ever has.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In response to the recent comments on Witness Testimony: Albert Cadosche

I would point out that BS Man was described by Schwartz as both broad-shouldered and stout.

That is obviously not a description of someone who merely looks bigger than he is because of the clothing he is wearing.

Do you not accept that someone can look bulkier than they actually are when they wear layers of clothing? I’d have thought this a fairly standard point and to be honest I’m rather surprised to hear it disputed.

The idea that he could have been Jewish is far-fetched.

Neither Abberline nor Schwartz considered it and there was nothing to indicate that BS was an immigrant.

Don’t you think that we should be wary of making assumptions? I’m not aware of any instance of Abberline mentioning the point or even implying that he had an opinion on it. Likewise Schwartz.

Contemporaneous commentators noted the very low incidence of public displays of drunkenness among Jews; physical attacks by Jews on women in the street were practically unheard of.

And I’d say that in the 1970’s and early 1980’s there was no incidents of Yorkshire men attacking women with ball pein hammers and yet Peter Sutcliffe was a Yorkshire man. Generalities really get us nowhere.

It was unheard of for Jews to shout anti-Jewish insults as fellow Jews passed by in the street.

Perhaps you could provide us with the evidence that you have discovered which supports that please?

On the other hand, contemporaneous commentators noted that it was common for Gentiles to make anti-Jewish comments as Jews passed them by in the street.

And no one has disputed this as far as I’m aware. But we have seen a documented incident of the word being directed at a Jew by a Jew. How likely would you suggest that it might have been that this was an entirely isolated incident and could you perhaps explain how you arrived at that conclusion please?

Several posters have claimed that Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished.

How then could Abberline tell that Schwartz had a strong Jewish appearance?

Simply because some Jews clearly did have a strong Jewish appearance….like Schwartz, whilst some didn’t…like the numerous ones that we provided photographs of on a previous thread.

How did the anti-Semites know whom to direct their comments at when someone passed them by in the street?

Did they merely guess?

Or did they merely hurl those insults at those Jews that had an obviously Jewish look. Those that didn’t look Jewish would have escaped the insults.

I pointed out that the man with the pipe was estimated by Schwartz to be 5 ft 11 ins, whereas Polish Jewish men were on average just over 5 ft 3 ins.

And I pointed out similar evidence where the average height of the same group of men was recorded at 5’6.” I also pointed out that to arrive at an average a range of heights would have been recorded….some taller some shorter. No matter what ethnicity we look at an example of a tall person can hardly be considered unlikely. As I also said in a previous post, I’m 4 inches taller than the average and my brother is 6 inches taller. In comparison Pipeman would only gave been 5 inches above the average. We also have to take into consideration that Schwartz didn’t measure the man’s height; he merely estimated it. Surely you can allow for the possibility that Pipeman might even have been 5’9” for example? I’m sure that you wouldn’t claim that a man could be accurate to 2 inches when estimating the height of a man that he’d seen briefly, under stressful circumstances across a street?

Responses to these points are along the lines that BS could have been a special case of a Polish Jew whose accent was not detectable and who unusually got drunk in public and unusually attacked women in the street, and who shouted an anti-Semitic insult as a person who was identifiably Jewish passed by, even though it was unheard of for a Jewish person to do so, and that Pipe Man was an unusually tall Jew.

All these suggestions are being made even though they run counter to everything that is known.

If, as so many here have suggested, Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished by sight, how could BS discern that Schwartz was Jewish or, if he directed the insult at Pipe Man, what made him think that a man who was 5 ft 11 ins tall and smoking a pipe was Jewish?

I’d suggest again that we should be cautious about generalisations. No one, as far as I’m aware, is claiming that no Jewish people could be recognised by appearance. Only that not all Jews could be recognised by their appearance.

I do agree that BS man and Pipeman were likely to have been gentiles though, but we shouldn’t assume it as a certainty.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think so.

Do you think Israel Schwartz gave the police his real name, or a pseudonym?

Why do you think modern researchers have had so much trouble identifying Israel Schwartz in the records?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

6i

Schwartz waited until the evening. Goldstein was persuaded to go to the police by Wess, which occurred late on the Tuesday evening. Is that what you mean by prompt? Tuesday was the day that police doubts about Schwartz's story, reached the press. Coincidence?

I think so.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I do not see anything suspicious about the conduct of either man.

The fact that both promptly contacted the police after the murder should be decisive.

Schwartz waited until the evening. Goldstein was persuaded to go to the police by Wess, which occurred late on the Tuesday evening. Is that what you mean by prompt? Tuesday was the day that police doubts about Schwartz's story, reached the press. Coincidence?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

According to Abberline, Schwartz crossed the road on witnessing the assault, and started to walk away on hearing the insult 'Lipski'.

It seems he was apprehensive before being followed.

That does not seem like a casual observer.

Because you're projecting cause and effect onto Schwartz's movements, without justification.

As a thought experiment though, let's assume you're right that 'Lipski!' is what made Schwartz walk away. So, he had crossed road and then stopped again. He must have stopped again if it is the call of Lipski which causes him to recommence walking. Is he apprehensive at that moment? If yes, then why has he stopped again?

Regardless of his state of mind, a more important question is what is occurring at the gates at this point? What does Schwartz see and hear, before he continues on? Is it more physical abuse of the woman? More not very loud screams? Quarrelling? Dragging of the woman into the yard? There is a big void in the story.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The one and only.

According to Woolf Wess, Goldstein was a traveller. According to the press report, Schwartz had gone out for the day. So, at nearly 1am, Schwartz was still out. Which of the following do you think most likely, in explaining Schwartz's long absence from his home?

• sight-seeing around London
• a really long shift in a factory
• working hard as Richard Mansfield's understudy at the Lyceum Theatre
• traveller

I do not see anything suspicious about the conduct of either man.

The fact that both promptly contacted the police after the murder should be decisive.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Are you referring to Leon Goldstein?

The one and only.

According to Woolf Wess, Goldstein was a traveller. According to the press report, Schwartz had gone out for the day. So, at nearly 1am, Schwartz was still out. Which of the following do you think most likely, in explaining Schwartz's long absence from his home?

• sight-seeing around London
• a really long shift in a factory
• working hard as Richard Mansfield's understudy at the Lyceum Theatre
• traveller

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In response to the recent comments on Witness Testimony: Albert Cadosche

I would point out that BS Man was described by Schwartz as both broad-shouldered and stout.

That is obviously not a description of someone who merely looks bigger than he is because of the clothing he is wearing.

The idea that he could have been Jewish is far-fetched.

Neither Abberline nor Schwartz considered it and there was nothing to indicate that BS was an immigrant.

Contemporaneous commentators noted the very low incidence of public displays of drunkenness among Jews; physical attacks by Jews on women in the street were practically unheard of.

It was unheard of for Jews to shout anti-Jewish insults as fellow Jews passed by in the street.

On the other hand, contemporaneous commentators noted that it was common for Gentiles to make anti-Jewish comments as Jews passed them by in the street.

Several posters have claimed that Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished.

How then could Abberline tell that Schwartz had a strong Jewish appearance?

How did the anti-Semites know whom to direct their comments at when someone passed them by in the street?

Did they merely guess?

I pointed out that the man with the pipe was estimated by Schwartz to be 5 ft 11 ins, whereas Polish Jewish men were on average just over 5 ft 3 ins.

Responses to these points are along the lines that BS could have been a special case of a Polish Jew whose accent was not detectable and who unusually got drunk in public and unusually attacked women in the street, and who shouted an anti-Semitic insult as a person who was identifiably Jewish passed by, even though it was unheard of for a Jewish person to do so, and that Pipe Man was an unusually tall Jew.

All these suggestions are being made even though they run counter to everything that is known.

If, as so many here have suggested, Jews and Gentlles could not be distinguished by sight, how could BS discern that Schwartz was Jewish or, if he directed the insult at Pipe Man, what made him think that a man who was 5 ft 11 ins tall and smoking a pipe was Jewish?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Very intrigued at the map produced by Richard on the threads. Amazing work and it has give me lots of food for thought on the following sighting after Stride's murder:

"From two different sources we have the story that a man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the look-out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and sailor's hat."

On looking at the map it does appear to be a good place to 'clean up'. It also means JTR could then continue a few minutes down the road to Mitre Square. Of course the description is vague but it is interesting both Lawende and these sources claimed the man was wearing attire similar to that of a sailor. This description appeared in the Star newspaper before Lawende's description was made public. It is also interesting that this man waw wiping his hands. We don't know what with but let's say this was a cloth or such. Could this explain the taking part of Eddowes Apron to seemingly wipe his knife and/or hands. He had nothing further to clean his hands and/or knife with?

Also interesting that assuming this was JTR he seems to have a bit of a pattern whereby just like Goulston Street he likes to get clear of the crime scene before stopping in a quiet side street to clean up.

Is there any more information on this sighting?

Just some thoughts.

Hi Sunny,

The Church Lane man is certainly an intriguing character. Sadly, there's very little to go on. Assuming the timings are correct (!) there's a very narrow window for him to reach Mitre Square and pick up Kate. One to ponder at any rate.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There is nothing here to suggest that Schwartz felt the least bit frightened before he is followed. On the contrary, he seems like a rather casual observer.

According to Abberline, Schwartz crossed the road on witnessing the assault, and started to walk away on hearing the insult 'Lipski'.

It seems he was apprehensive before being followed.

That does not seem like a casual observer.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Do you find it interesting that a respectably dressed man with a nice bag, was observed walking down Berner St at around the time of the murder?

Are you referring to Leon Goldstein?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have always thought that if Schwartz was followed, it was because of what he had seen.

But I think your theory is an interesting one.

Do you find it interesting that a respectably dressed man with a nice bag, was observed walking down Berner St at around the time of the murder?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In the press report, 'the Hungarian' gave these descriptions.

He described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society.

Clearly, the second man is after Schwartz. An attack on an alone woman, and an attempted attack on an alone man by two men who seem to be communicating, suggests we are dealing with a couple of muggers.

Some ask why the pipe has been replaced by a knife, but keep in mind that this man likely had two hands and at least as many pockets.

The notion that Schwartz was able to observe and recall the colour of the respective moustaches, is far-fetched.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree.

To my mind, the main question is whether he was an accomplice of BS Man.

What do you mean by accomplice? Do you mean that he stands watch and warns his buddy of 'intruders', while his buddy is attempting to kill someone? Why would a watchman, presumably with a lit pipe in his hand, deem it necessary to pursue another man who is harmlessly walking away from the scene?

But if BS did not murder Stride, then the answer is not even relevant to the Whitechapel murders.

BS doesn't seem like a man who could swiftly kill a victim in silence. The problem is that there is not enough time for another man to come along. So perhaps the story is fake, or the time and/or place is incorrect.