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The Stride Murder
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Hi Andrew,
I'm not sure if you have already mentioned this, but I recall a story being related where someone had reported that an ancestor had reputably been walking down Berner St and looked into the yard to see a man with a knife standing over a bleeding woman. I can't at this moment recall the name of the person involved. Can you assist me in this recollection?
Cheers, George
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Here's a reference to smoking at the club ...
Discussion for general Whitechapel geography, mapping and routes the killer might have taken. Also the place for general census information and "what was it like in Whitechapel" discussions.
Papirosa Cigarette Tubes
Papirosa Tubes
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostWhen we read Mortimer's account, doesn't it sound to you like Goldstein was on the opposite side of Berner St. to where Mortimer stood?
She was at her door, right?
So, she doesn't say he passed within arms reach of her, right under her nose.
She also doesn't say he looked towards the club (your honest mistake?) , but to be exact, he looked up at the club. Which tends to suggest he looked at the upstairs room where they were singing and dancing, which sounds reasonable.
Can you imagine how you would have to twist your neck to look up to the first floor from the pavement at ground level while walking passed barely 2 feet away from the building?
He could very easily have stumbled, or lost his balance, trying to look up at such an acute angle.
He was walking down the east side, the other side of the road, wasn't he?
And Schwartz walked down the west side, Mortimer's side, didn't he?
Back to business. I agree with you Jon. I think Goldstein was on the opposite side (the eastern side) of the road to Mortimer, and turned to his left at the Fairclough intersection to head towards his home. And it does say that he looked up, but if one were to be a little pedantic one could claim that he was walking with his head down, and looked up and towards the yard. I am not of that opinion.
Cheers, George
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Originally posted by Lewis C View Post
It seems like Eagle is doing a lot here. He walks his girlfriend home, comes back with cigarettes (Would we expect Eagle to be a cigarette salesman?), but instead of just taking the cigarettes straight into the club, he meets up with Stride for awhile.
I prefer Lave as being the man with the parcel. Is it possible that members would have been obliged to 'chip-in' for the supper Eagle was returning for? Had that been the case then Lave may have needed to make a quick sale or two.
I presume Lave would have known Diemschitz and his wife quite well, as they lived at #40 and Lave was temporarily staying at the club.
Lave name history
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Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post
Both Goldstein and Schwartz were interviewed by the police.
Would the police not have noticed if they were the same person?
The theory is that 'Israel Schwartz' was a pseudonym used by Goldstein. Up until 'Leon Goldstein' goes to the police station, there is no issue. Then a man must accompany Wess to Leman St, state his name as being 'Leon Goldstein', and sign a piece of paper. Easy done. That man could have been anyone, but I'll take a guess that it was a J. Goldstein, who did exist.
Goldstein lived at 22 Christian St and Schwartz lived at 22 Ellen St.
Are we really to believe that Schwartz gave a false address to the police?
Are we really expected to believe that Goldstein, with his black shiny bag, transformed himself into the theatrical Schwartz?
It's a little curious that Schwartz, a man supposedly of very limited material means, was able to present at Leman St station, "well dressed".
And where is the evidence that Goldstein was Hungarian?
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Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View PostMy point about Goldstein is that you need to imagine he follows the path of Schwartz as he walks down Berner Street.
Goldstein walks down the same side of the road as Mortimer's residence and as she opens the door to look down Berner Street she sees Goldstein look towards the club and then hurriedly walk across the road and walk around the corner by the board school.
Mortimer witnesses the exact moment that Goldstein witnesses the sound of Stride being murdered in the yard. He then crosses the street as he passes the gateway and then hurriedly walks around the corner.
When Goldstein is seen by Mortimer looking up at the club, Goldstein is responding to the audible sound of Stride being murdered.
So we have Mortimer witness Goldstein witnessing the murder. This all happens at the SAME TIME.
BUT...
because Goldstein witnesses the attack on Stride outside the club, he then tells Wess and in order to clear himself from being seen as the killer (and not the witness) AND to save the club, Wess convinces Goldstein to tell the police.
I suggest if you want to increase the perceived incentive for Goldstein to go to the police under a pseudonym, consider weaving the Evening News interview into your story.
BUT
the only way that Goldstein can be sure not to implicate himself is to say he saw thr assault on Stride 15 minutes before it actually did...and because he may have been seen, he goes to the station incognito and gives his account as a generic looking Jew called Schwartz.
As Schwartz, Goldstein then tells a story of an assault by BS man and his potential accomplice in Pipeman.
BUT Bs Man and Pipeman don't exist because the incident that Schwartz describes is designed to alter the time of the actual murder AND for the assault to be seen as an Anti Jewish attack by someone shouting Lipski and attacking a woman outside the club, caused by a man who approached her from the north.
BUT... and here's the crucial thing... Goldsteins story that he tells as Schwartz has elements of TRUTH.
Goldstein DID walk down Berner At (like Schwartz)
Goldstein DID witness an assault as he got to the gateway (like Schwartz)
Goldstein DID cross the road and hurry off (like Schwartz did when he crossed the road)
And so when Goldstein tells his story AS SCHWARTZ, he's giving us hints and incorporating elements of what he DID WITNESS as himself (Goldstein)
The 2 prime suspects are Lave and Eagle.
Eagle is Parcelman returning with cigarettes for the club members still in the club
Lave goes out because he needs fresh air from the cigarette smoke.
Goldstein tells the police his bag was full of empty cigarette cases
Goldstein AS SCHWARTZ describes a man lighting up (pipeman that he creates)
The yard where Stride was murdered had cigar makers who lived there.
Stride is found with Cachous in her hand...to sweeten her breath from cigarettes?
Who gave her the cachous?
That's the missing link...
The man who gave her the cachous was her killer... but why would he be carrying cachous in the first place?
To use for himself
A man who needed to get some fresh air perhaps?
Mortimer saw Goldstein looking towards the club
Goldstein looked towards the club after hearing the attack.
He knows it's a club member
Wess convinces him to go to the police to save the club and himself
Goldstein has to go as Schwartz to create a story.
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Both Goldstein and Schwartz were interviewed by the police.
Would the police not have noticed if they were the same person?
Goldstein lived at 22 Christian St and Schwartz lived at 22 Ellen St.
Are we really to believe that Schwartz gave a false address to the police?
Are we really expected to believe that Goldstein, with his black shiny bag, transformed himself into the theatrical Schwartz?
And where is the evidence that Goldstein was Hungarian?
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Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View PostMy point about Goldstein is that you need to imagine he follows the path of Schwartz as he walks down Berner Street.
Goldstein walks down the same side of the road as Mortimer's residence and as she opens the door to look down Berner Street she sees Goldstein look towards the club and then hurriedly walk across the road and walk around the corner by the board school.
Mortimer witnesses the exact moment that Goldstein witnesses the sound of Stride being murdered in the yard. He then crosses the street as he passes the gateway and then hurriedly walks around the corner.
When Goldstein is seen by Mortimer looking up at the club, Goldstein is responding to the audible sound of Stride being murdered.
So we have Mortimer witness Goldstein witnessing the murder. This all happens at the SAME TIME.
BUT...
because Goldstein witnesses the attack on Stride outside the club, he then tells Wess and in order to clear himself from being seen as the killer (and not the witness) AND to save the club, Wess convinces Goldstein to tell the police.
BUT
the only way that Goldstein can be sure not to implicate himself is to say he saw thr assault on Stride 15 minutes before it actually did...and because he may have been seen, he goes to the station incognito and gives his account as a generic looking Jew called Schwartz.
As Schwartz, Goldstein then tells a story of an assault by BS man and his potential accomplice in Pipeman.
BUT Bs Man and Pipeman don't exist because the incident that Schwartz describes is designed to alter the time of the actual murder AND for the assault to be seen as an Anti Jewish attack by someone shouting Lipski and attacking a woman outside the club, caused by a man who approached her from the north.
BUT... and here's the crucial thing... Goldsteins story that he tells as Schwartz has elements of TRUTH.
Goldstein DID walk down Berner At (like Schwartz)
Goldstein DID witness an assault as he got to the gateway (like Schwartz)
Goldstein DID cross the road and hurry off (like Schwartz did when he crossed the road)
And so when Goldstein tells his story AS SCHWARTZ, he's giving us hints and incorporating elements of what he DID WITNESS as himself (Goldstein)
The 2 prime suspects are Lave and Eagle.
Eagle is Parcelman returning with cigarettes for the club members still in the club
Lave goes out because he needs fresh air from the cigarette smoke.
Goldstein tells the police his bag was full of empty cigarette cases
Goldstein AS SCHWARTZ describes a man lighting up (pipeman that he creates)
The yard where Stride was murdered had cigar makers who lived there.
Stride is found with Cachous in her hand...to sweeten her breath from cigarettes?
Who gave her the cachous?
That's the missing link...
The man who gave her the cachous was her killer... but why would he be carrying cachous in the first place?
To use for himself
A man who needed to get some fresh air perhaps?
Mortimer saw Goldstein looking towards the club
Goldstein looked towards the club after hearing the attack.
He knows it's a club member
Wess convinces him to go to the police to save the club and himself
Goldstein has to go as Schwartz to create a story.
Ultimately... nothing happened in Berner Street at all
Until around 1am when Stride was murdered by a man from the club.
Goldstein was the key witness but know he would be seen as the killer and so had to go as Schwartz.
When you look at all of what I've said, it ALL fits.
Except for the Goldstein looked "up" at the club instead of looking "at" the club.
If Goldstein looked at or towards the club and Mortimer's statement that he looked up at the club can be explained as the same thing, then Mortimer witnessed the man (Goldstein) who witnessed the murder of Stride.
I have been trying to prove myself wrong but
IF Goldstein was Schwartz
And...
Goldstein looked towards the club is the same as looking up at the club...
Then I believe my hypothesis covers it all.
BUT..that would then exclude Stride as a ripper victim.
And so when Le Grand for involved, he saw an opportunity to push for the murder having been a ripper killing, based on the letters being faked to pedal a double event and for the WVC to justify extorting more reward money.
It all fits...unless someone can help me to disprove myself.
RD
How does James Brown and what he saw fit in here?
It seems like Eagle is doing a lot here. He walks his girlfriend home, comes back with cigarettes (Would we expect Eagle to be a cigarette salesman?), but instead of just taking the cigarettes straight into the club, he meets up with Stride for awhile.
I would drop the part about Goldstein immediately knowing that the attack was by a club member. I don't see how he could have known that, and I don't think that any other part of your narrative depends on that anyway.
I'd say it fits if you accept that the police were wrong about a few things: wrong about the Schwartz incident happening, wrong about who Schwartz and Goldstein were, wrong about it being a Ripper murder, without any of these things being proven. Generally, I think it's best to keep unproven police errors to a minimum.
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My point about Goldstein is that you need to imagine he follows the path of Schwartz as he walks down Berner Street.
Goldstein walks down the same side of the road as Mortimer's residence and as she opens the door to look down Berner Street she sees Goldstein look towards the club and then hurriedly walk across the road and walk around the corner by the board school.
Mortimer witnesses the exact moment that Goldstein witnesses the sound of Stride being murdered in the yard. He then crosses the street as he passes the gateway and then hurriedly walks around the corner.
When Goldstein is seen by Mortimer looking up at the club, Goldstein is responding to the audible sound of Stride being murdered.
So we have Mortimer witness Goldstein witnessing the murder. This all happens at the SAME TIME.
BUT...
because Goldstein witnesses the attack on Stride outside the club, he then tells Wess and in order to clear himself from being seen as the killer (and not the witness) AND to save the club, Wess convinces Goldstein to tell the police.
BUT
the only way that Goldstein can be sure not to implicate himself is to say he saw thr assault on Stride 15 minutes before it actually did...and because he may have been seen, he goes to the station incognito and gives his account as a generic looking Jew called Schwartz.
As Schwartz, Goldstein then tells a story of an assault by BS man and his potential accomplice in Pipeman.
BUT Bs Man and Pipeman don't exist because the incident that Schwartz describes is designed to alter the time of the actual murder AND for the assault to be seen as an Anti Jewish attack by someone shouting Lipski and attacking a woman outside the club, caused by a man who approached her from the north.
BUT... and here's the crucial thing... Goldsteins story that he tells as Schwartz has elements of TRUTH.
Goldstein DID walk down Berner At (like Schwartz)
Goldstein DID witness an assault as he got to the gateway (like Schwartz)
Goldstein DID cross the road and hurry off (like Schwartz did when he crossed the road)
And so when Goldstein tells his story AS SCHWARTZ, he's giving us hints and incorporating elements of what he DID WITNESS as himself (Goldstein)
The 2 prime suspects are Lave and Eagle.
Eagle is Parcelman returning with cigarettes for the club members still in the club
Lave goes out because he needs fresh air from the cigarette smoke.
Goldstein tells the police his bag was full of empty cigarette cases
Goldstein AS SCHWARTZ describes a man lighting up (pipeman that he creates)
The yard where Stride was murdered had cigar makers who lived there.
Stride is found with Cachous in her hand...to sweeten her breath from cigarettes?
Who gave her the cachous?
That's the missing link...
The man who gave her the cachous was her killer... but why would he be carrying cachous in the first place?
To use for himself
A man who needed to get some fresh air perhaps?
Mortimer saw Goldstein looking towards the club
Goldstein looked towards the club after hearing the attack.
He knows it's a club member
Wess convinces him to go to the police to save the club and himself
Goldstein has to go as Schwartz to create a story.
Ultimately... nothing happened in Berner Street at all
Until around 1am when Stride was murdered by a man from the club.
Goldstein was the key witness but know he would be seen as the killer and so had to go as Schwartz.
When you look at all of what I've said, it ALL fits.
Except for the Goldstein looked "up" at the club instead of looking "at" the club.
If Goldstein looked at or towards the club and Mortimer's statement that he looked up at the club can be explained as the same thing, then Mortimer witnessed the man (Goldstein) who witnessed the murder of Stride.
I have been trying to prove myself wrong but
IF Goldstein was Schwartz
And...
Goldstein looked towards the club is the same as looking up at the club...
Then I believe my hypothesis covers it all.
BUT..that would then exclude Stride as a ripper victim.
And so when Le Grand for involved, he saw an opportunity to push for the murder having been a ripper killing, based on the letters being faked to pedal a double event and for the WVC to justify extorting more reward money.
It all fits...unless someone can help me to disprove myself.
RD
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Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
I don't doubt it, Berner St. is plenty long enough for him to cross the street long before he passes Mortimers house.
I could say the same to you, that "surely" he "went around the corner by the Board School", on the east side?
The question becomes, at what point did he cross Berner St.?
I agree, she said "up", so he looked up.
The common-place, boring, mundane, everyday singing?
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
Surely Goldstein initially walked down on the club side, having turned into the street from the direction of Spectacle Alley.
I could say the same to you, that "surely" he "went around the corner by the Board School", on the east side?
The question becomes, at what point did he cross Berner St.?
No doubt it was perfectly clear to Fanny in that dark street, in what precise direction Goldstein was looking
Whatever the case, had there been any noise coming from upstairs, it would have been both an obvious place to look if something unusual caught his ear, and it would be natural for Fanny to suppose that it was the singing that made him look toward the club.So, what did make Goldstein look up at/back to/toward the club? Was it a bit of commonplace singing that grabbed this fast-walking man's attention, or something more interesting?
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Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
When we read Mortimer's account, doesn't it sound to you like Goldstein was on the opposite side of Berner St. to where Mortimer stood?
She was at her door, right?
So, she doesn't say he passed within arms reach of her, right under her nose.
She also doesn't say he looked towards the club (your honest mistake?) , but to be exact, he looked up at the club. Which tends to suggest he looked at the upstairs room where they were singing and dancing, which sounds reasonable.
Can you imagine how you would have to twist your neck to look up to the first floor from the pavement at ground level while walking passed barely 2 feet away from the building?
He could very easily have stumbled, or lost his balance, trying to look up at such an acute angle.
He was walking down the east side, the other side of the road, wasn't he?
And Schwartz walked down the west side, Mortimer's side, didn't he?
No doubt it was perfectly clear to Fanny in that dark street, in what precise direction Goldstein was looking. Whatever the case, had there been any noise coming from upstairs, it would have been both an obvious place to look if something unusual caught his ear, and it would be natural for Fanny to suppose that it was the singing that made him look toward the club.
So, what did make Goldstein look up at/back to/toward the club? Was it a bit of commonplace singing that grabbed this fast-walking man's attention, or something more interesting?Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 10-07-2023, 10:24 PM.
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Originally posted by Lewis C View Post
Do you mean "The opposite of what we might expect" because the Schwartz incident would have been more noticeable and more memorable?
Even if Wess didn't find out about it then, Mortimer's statement was in the papers on Monday, and I think that at least some papers would have come out in the morning. That would mean Goldstein reported it about 236 after that. That does seem a bit slow.
Imagine an alternate reality where Schwartz & co. are heard and seen, and Goldstein is not seen. Then Goldstein comes forward almost immediately - let's say in the evening following the murder, as Schwartz did, and not long after does a press interview - but there are also rumours of a man who saw an assault on the street, just 15 minutes before the body was discovered, although the man's identity is unknown to the police. Then late Tuesday evening, the man (Schwartz), who knew no English and was apprehensive about getting involved in police identifications and other legal matters, is finally persuaded to go to the station and make a statement.
Things are not as we might expect. We also have to wonder what happened to Schwartz - there seems to be no mention of him beyond 1888.
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Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View PostAh no...just to clarify my meaning from my previous post (as I feel it was misinterpreted; my fault entirely)
That you were trying to make a point (like Richardson), but for some reason your story, or explanation (like Richardson), was not clear to everyone?
So it would be unjustified for anyone to accuse you of lying?
You were not trying to mislead anyone, it was just an honest mistake?
You agree?
[I hope you see the point I am trying to make]
So...
the Schwartz "incident" NEVER happened...BUT Goldstein (who was Schwartz) was seen by Mortimer at the exact same moment that Goldstein looked towards the club and saw the attack at 1am.
Goldstein looked towards the club AND WITNESSED the murder OR the murderer in the process of attacking Stride in the gateway and THEN he hurried off around the corner, all of which Mortimer witnessed. Her focus was on watching Goldstein and not on the murder being committed inside the gateway out of her viewpoint.
She was at her door, right?
So, she doesn't say he passed within arms reach of her, right under her nose.
She also doesn't say he looked towards the club (your honest mistake?) , but to be exact, he looked up at the club. Which tends to suggest he looked at the upstairs room where they were singing and dancing, which sounds reasonable.
Can you imagine how you would have to twist your neck to look up to the first floor from the pavement at ground level while walking passed barely 2 feet away from the building?
He could very easily have stumbled, or lost his balance, trying to look up at such an acute angle.
He was walking down the east side, the other side of the road, wasn't he?
And Schwartz walked down the west side, Mortimer's side, didn't he?
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