The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Joseph Lave was only a transient member lodging at the same building.

He was the odd one out


RD

Going back to the smoking of cigars/cigarettes, in #1231 I linked to page with this description of papirosa cigarette tubes.

Papirosa cigarette tubes actually consist of two pre rolled tubes inserted one into the other: one tube, is called a shirt, is made of tissue rolling paper and crushed tobacco is poured into it, and the second is made of thicker paper and has several functions - it allows you to hold the papirosa tube in your hands, prevents tobacco from getting into your mouth, and most importantly - is a mouthpiece of papirosa cigarette tubes that cools smoke well and retains a large amount of harmful substances and tar on its walls.

This reminded me of Edward Spooner's reference to paper in Stride's right hand ...

I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

What sort of paper was it?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Excellent work by all but so complicated.

Are we missing the point. What reason is there for Stride to be killed outside/just inside the yard of a very well attended social club in the East End where even the supposed 'cunning' JTR would find it almost impossible to operate. People are in and out of the yard like a fiddlers elbo. The question is why there?

Either the murderer is an outsider making a point/statement by killing somebody to discredit the Jews/socialists or it is spur of the moment. But killing somebody in the spur of the moment in that very violent attack is not like punching someone on the nose. The murderer would have to be well worked up, very annoyed to do this. Owed money like modern day drug dealers, previous problems etc. I think this could be an avenue of thought when we are trying to suggest suspects.

I just cannot see why a member of the club would chose there own ground to carry out this murder unless the person cannot control his own behavior. Is there a member who fits that bill. It surely wouldn't be any member with any common sense.

NW

I'll sleep on these questions and see if I can dream up something interesting.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thankyou, so they (Schwartz, Goldstein) are walking on opposite sides of the street.
I acknowledge the attempt at explaining the absence of Schwartz, but this is becoming a force=fit that is hard to swallow.

"I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

How far away was Goldstein from Fanny when she could see he was a stranger to her?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Wickerman, George, Lewis, NBFN etc...


My apologies for submitting long posts and I accept that they're too long.


I will endeavor to be more concise from now on


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Excellent work by all but so complicated.

Are we missing the point. What reason is there for Stride to be killed outside/just inside the yard of a very well attended social club in the East End where even the supposed 'cunning' JTR would find it almost impossible to operate. People are in and out of the yard like a fiddlers elbo. The question is why there?

Either the murderer is an outsider making a point/statement by killing somebody to discredit the Jews/socialists or it is spur of the moment. But killing somebody in the spur of the moment in that very violent attack is not like punching someone on the nose. The murderer would have to be well worked up, very annoyed to do this. Owed money like modern day drug dealers, previous problems etc. I think this could be an avenue of thought when we are trying to suggest suspects.

I just cannot see why a member of the club would chose there own ground to carry out this murder unless the person cannot control his own behavior. Is there a member who fits that bill. It surely wouldn't be any member with any common sense.

NW

Joseph Lave was only a transient member lodging at the same building.

He was the odd one out


RD

[New Waterloo]

Excellent work by all but so complicated.

Are we missing the point. What reason is there for Stride to be killed outside/just inside the yard of a very well attended social club in the East End where even the supposed 'cunning' JTR would find it almost impossible to operate. People are in and out of the yard like a fiddlers elbo. The question is why there?

Either the murderer is an outsider making a point/statement by killing somebody to discredit the Jews/socialists or it is spur of the moment. But killing somebody in the spur of the moment in that very violent attack is not like punching someone on the nose. The murderer would have to be well worked up, very annoyed to do this. Owed money like modern day drug dealers, previous problems etc. I think this could be an avenue of thought when we are trying to suggest suspects.

I just cannot see why a member of the club would chose there own ground to carry out this murder unless the person cannot control his own behavior. Is there a member who fits that bill. It surely wouldn't be any member with any common sense.

NW

[Lewis C]

You had everybody guessing....

Yes, I can imagine that everyone who read that must have been thinking, "what on earth is he trying to say?"

[Fiver]

We need more than "he was there" to accuse someone of murder.

That's good enough for a lot of people with favorite suspects.

[Wickerman]

I really mistyped this one. Where I said "236", I meant "36 hours".

You had everybody guessing....

[Wickerman]

Firstly, a brief answer to RD's contention that there are only two reason for a substantial (or voluminous) post not being answered. The third reason is ...that some of us have lives...not me, but some of us??

I have to agree, a theory will often require a long post, but don't ask people to reply to the whole thing.
My own view is that long posts are for information, short posts are for interaction.

Back to business. I agree with you Jon. I think Goldstein was on the opposite side (the eastern side) of the road to Mortimer, and turned to his left at the Fairclough intersection to head towards his home. And it does say that he looked up, but if one were to be a little pedantic one could claim that he was walking with his head down, and looked up and towards the yard. I am not of that opinion.

Cheers, George

Thankyou, so they (Schwartz, Goldstein) are walking on opposite sides of the street.
I acknowledge the attempt at explaining the absence of Schwartz, but this is becoming a force=fit that is hard to swallow.

[Wickerman]

The problem with Lave being the murderer who initially goes outside for fresh air, away the smoke of the cigars that Eagle supposedly delivers, is that Lave seems to have gone outside before Eagle returned.

We need more than "he was there" to accuse someone of murder.

[Lewis C]

Hi RC,

If my comment regarding the third reason for a long post not receiving an anticipated response seemed dismissive, I would like to assure that that was not my intent. Posts that contain a great many speculative hypotheses and bifurcations are difficult to comment on in their entirety. The best you can hope for is probably comments of certain parts of the post, so here goes.

Hi George,

My thoughts on this are similar to yours. I will sometimes come to Casebook with a limited amount of time to read and post, sometimes needing to budget my time. If I can't read everything, I'll sometimes skip the longer posts and just read the shorter ones. And even if I read it, if it's complicated with lots of different twists and turns, I may just comment one one or two specific points rather than attempt to give a comprehensive response.

[Lewis C]

Even if Wess didn't find out about it then, Mortimer's statement was in the papers on Monday, and I think that at least some papers would have come out in the morning. That would mean Goldstein reported it about 236 after that. That does seem a bit slow.

I really mistyped this one. Where I said "236", I meant "36 hours".

[GBinOz]

Nathan Shine - reluctant witness? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

Thanks Andrew. Detective Inspector Jebediah Shine was a character in the excellent series "Ripper St". I have not been able to determine whether he was based on an actual historical figure.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Once again...feedback please?

It's the first time a hypothesis of mine hasn't been stripped down and logically deconstructed by minds far greater than mine.

Only NBFN has responded, and that post lacked contextual substance (with respect)

If my hypothesis can't be debunked and logically discounted, then I'd say that it was a pretty good hypothesis.


I tend to find that substantial posts are often ignored for 2 reasons; they're a complete joke, ridiculous, and not worth responding to, OR...they're very worthy posts and people don't know how to respond and challenge a hypothesis that explains so much in context with the available knowledge we do have.


In other words, I'd much prefer to have the discussion, be challenged, be dis-proven, be corrected, be mocked even...but to be ignored for stating what I believe is a very good hypothesis and explanation; is rather frustrating.

And it's no fun playing table tennis by yourself


So the narcissist in me would once again like to ask you all...


Give me some feedback on my rather (ridiculous and/or brilliant) hypothesis above please?


RD

Hi RC,

If my comment regarding the third reason for a long post not receiving an anticipated response seemed dismissive, I would like to assure that that was not my intent. Posts that contain a great many speculative hypotheses and bifurcations are difficult to comment on in their entirety. The best you can hope for is probably comments of certain parts of the post, so here goes.

THe last GENUINE sighting was that made by PC Smith around 12.35am-12.40am, the same time that EAGLE returned to the club.

The sighting by Smith was 12:30 to 12:35 Police time estimated. Eagle was quoting several estimated times add to an un-named clock source, and he admits he didn't look at the club clock. IMO it would be generous to say his times were +/- 20 minutes with an un-known sync. For Eagle to have been Parcelman he would have to have bought the grapes from Packer, and lingered across from the club listening to the music. Also, Smith would have had to have failed to recognise him as the man he saw with Stride.

My understanding is that Lave was a visitor at the club rather than a member. What reason would have had to kill Stride, unless he was Jack, which seems unlikely.

I find your final summary of your scenario to the innovative, but speculative, so the cast could have variable identities. It is certainly different from the traditional merry-go-round and, as such is, IMO, commendable.

Cheers, George