The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How can his ability to count the cachous be reconciled with Blackwell's comments? I'm not convinced Herschburg was referring to her left hand, especially given Spooner's comment ...

I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand ...

My hunch is that Herschburg removed the cachous from the piece of paper in the right hand. That is how he was able to count them, and why Spooner did not see anything in this piece of paper. Herschburg said ...

It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat.

Having removed the cachous, Herschburg may have used Stride's right hand to ascertain the extent of the cut to the throat. Thus ...

Blackwell: The right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood. ... I could not ascertain whether the bloody hand had been moved.

I think Herschburg moved the hand across her throat, and he seems to have arrived at the yard before Diemschitz returned with Spooner. His hearing of the whistle therefore seems to time well with Mr Harris hearing it too ...

Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

Who blew this whistle, and why?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just a little observation regarding the Cachous.


Stride was holding the packet between her thumb and forefinger.

That suggests that before her throat was cut, Stride had either just TAKEN the Cachous out of her own pocket OR had just TAKEN the packet from her killer.

In other words, she wasn't carrying the Cachous in her HAND, just between her 2 fingers.

In other words; her finger placement implies the motion of her having taken the packet of Cachous between her fingers and therefore the moment she was perhaps distracted and her attention drawn away at the critical moment.


RD

...And HOW did she not drop them if they were BETWEEN her thumb and forefinger?

I can understand her not dropping them as part of an involuntary brain reaction...

but just between her thumb and forefinger...

How did she not drop them?

How is that physically possible?


RD

This is certainly a difficult question to answer.
Dr Phillips at the inquest ...

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
The Foreman: Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted? - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

So, it would be reasonable to suppose that had Stride been thrown to the ground just prior to being cut, she would have dropped the packet/paper holding the cachous. However, it seems she did not drop the packet.

Dr Blackwell: The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.

He may well have 'split' them, but we still have an apparent contradiction to explain. How could the packet of cachous be lodged between left thumb and forefinger, and there be cachous scattered about the yard?

Although the quote we have from Abraham Herschburg is not inquest testimony, he does seem a very inquisitive, perceptive and well-spoken young man. He said ...

In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

How can his ability to count the cachous be reconciled with Blackwell's comments? I'm not convinced Herschburg was referring to her left hand, especially given Spooner's comment ...

I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand ...

What had been in that piece of paper? More cachous, some of which had been scattered about the yard? Here's another reason for supposing that cachous had also been in Stride's right hand ...

Blackwell: The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

Herschburg and Spooner do not mention this packet within tissue paper, they just mention a piece of paper.

Returning to the cachous scattered about the yard, consider also Diemschitz' comment to the press ...

Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes.

What do clenched hands and scattered cachous suggest to you? I'm sensing a struggle over the cachous. She has them, he wants them. So, not a 'domestic' type struggle, but more like a primitive fight for the possession of calories.

[Wickerman]

...And HOW did she not drop them if they were BETWEEN her thumb and forefinger?

I can understand her not dropping them as part of an involuntary brain reaction...

but just between her thumb and forefinger...

How did she not drop them?

How is that physically possible?


RD

It's because of what you are pointing out that I wondered if the packet of cachous was on the ground already.
The doctors did not find them in her hand, as would be the case if she was carrying them.

The packet was only between her thumb & forefinger, as if the packet was on the ground. But as she fell her hand (left hand) fell on the packet. In that case the back of her left hand hits the ground, or if her hand was twisted slightly, her thumb & forefinger would face the ground, and if there was anything on the ground at that point it may fall over the packet of cachous. Anyone may think she had them in her hand, but she didn't, it was just a coincidence.

[The Rookie Detective]

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

I have another theory regarding those Cachou...


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Interesting take on the Stride murder.

The bruises on the left cheek and temple in particular.


Consistent with her being thrown to the ground and her head pushed down while her throat was cut


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Just a little observation regarding the Cachous.


Stride was holding the packet between her thumb and forefinger.

That suggests that before her throat was cut, Stride had either just TAKEN the Cachous out of her own pocket OR had just TAKEN the packet from her killer.

In other words, she wasn't carrying the Cachous in her HAND, just between her 2 fingers.

In other words; her finger placement implies the motion of her having taken the packet of Cachous between her fingers and therefore the moment she was perhaps distracted and her attention drawn away at the critical moment.


RD

...And HOW did she not drop them if they were BETWEEN her thumb and forefinger?

I can understand her not dropping them as part of an involuntary brain reaction...

but just between her thumb and forefinger...

How did she not drop them?

How is that physically possible?


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

Sweeten the breath?

I thought they were instead used in the same way as we would use fresh mints to take away bad tastes from our mouth.

I.e. a cigarette, a dodgy grape, another kisser's bad breath..

But to "sweeten the breath" gives us perhaps a whole new outlook on what may have happened...




RD

[The Rookie Detective]

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

Thank you for clearing that up. I was just pondering whether the Cachous could have been squashed and transferred between her hands, but now I know that's unlikely.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Just a little observation regarding the Cachous.


Stride was holding the packet between her thumb and forefinger.

That suggests that before her throat was cut, Stride had either just TAKEN the Cachous out of her own pocket OR had just TAKEN the packet from her killer.

In other words, she wasn't carrying the Cachous in her HAND, just between her 2 fingers.

In other words; her finger placement implies the motion of her having taken the packet of Cachous between her fingers and therefore the moment she was perhaps distracted and her attention drawn away at the critical moment.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, given Abberline's comments, it doesn't sound like Pipe Man was just moving on. Maybe Pipe Man did intend to mug Schwartz.

For money or possessions on him, or both. Perhaps, having been out since the previous evening, Schwartz carried a bag.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What happens when you squash Cachous?


Do they stain like grapes?


Could the stains on the handkerchief have come from the cachous and NOT grapes?


RD

No, I don't believe so.

cachou : a pill or pastille used to sweeten the breath

Dr Phillips: The stomach was large, and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly-digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder.

I'm not sure if the farinaceous powder (starch/flour) could have anything to do with the cachous.

[Lewis C]

Comments from Swanson and Abberline considered together, suggest that the second man walked then ran, but didn't run as far as the railway arch. A man fleeing in fear would run initially before slowing to a walk, would he not? A man who decided to move on would not run at all. That leaves your third possibility - the man was pursuing Schwartz with intent. Given Schwartz, by his own account, is only guilty of leaving a woman in distress to her own devices, what could be the motivation for the second man's pursuit? I would suggest - money.

Yes, given Abberline's comments, it doesn't sound like Pipe Man was just moving on. Maybe Pipe Man did intend to mug Schwartz.

[DJA]

Hi LC,

Pipeman "came out of the doorway of a public house a few doors off".

A doorway is different to a door. It is a small sheltered enclosure just outside the door that would present a prefect refuge for a pipe smoker to attend to the re-lighting of his pipe out of the wind. He could have been thus engaged when he heard the dispute at the gateway and stepped out to see what was going on.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

What happens when you squash Cachous?


Do they stain like grapes?


Could the stains on the handkerchief have come from the cachous and NOT grapes?


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NW,

Packer was in the business of selling fruit and vegetables from his little shop. Why would he see selling some grapes to a customer as anything unusual, or in any way related to the murder. He probably thought nothing of it until the grapes became a focal point afterwards.

Cheers, George

Had the couple gone and briefly stood outside gates of the yard, before disappearing from his view, Packer should have been able to put 2 and 2 together, before the 2 detectives came along. Had the man with the appearance of a clerk he served, been the same man as described by Marshall, he would be correct in saying he did not see anything unusual.

Le Grand and Batchelor may have heard stories about grapes, and decided that with a little persuasion of Mathew Packer, they could capitalise on the situation.