The Stride Murder

[The Rookie Detective]

There's a quote in the press somewhere that describes Stride's head was near to the house wall, but in the gutter. There was a channel in the bricks of the yard, either worn-in by the iron-shod cart wheels, or intentionally made for rainwater to run to a drain.
As it had been raining that night it might be possible her blood ran from the neck and made it's way towards the gate, aided by the rain. Liquid attracts liquid.

Ah, but can water run uphill?

I'm fairly sure there was a slight gradient from the gate down to the club door; hence why the blood naturally ran toward the door. Otherwise, the blood would have run into the street.

I could be wrong of course.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

George, let me just draw your attention to something.
First, Gilyarovsky went down to the print shop - Kozebrodski says nothing about that.
Second, Gilyarovski makes no mention of being with Diemshutz when he saw the body - Kozebrodski was with Diem. when he first saw the body.

Gilyarovsky is interesting. The only way he could have seen blood in the following passage from Der Arbeter Fraint, is by reaching the printing and editor's offices by first exiting the side door, and then checking on the victim alone, before heading out to the offices.

From excitement he [Comrade Louis Dimshits] jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate.

So, a part of the story seems to be missing, but considering how it continues, how could Gilyarovsky have seen blood?...

The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

Firstly, this demonstrates that while very dark, the passageway was not so dark that the victim could not be seen at all. This is relevant to what and where Schwartz witnessed Stride going to the ground, and the possibility of Eagle missing Stride lying on the passageway, on his return to the club.

Back to Gilyarovsky. How did he see blood, seemingly without a match? Well, what happens if we try to match this missing piece of the puzzle, with the Joseph Koster story (Irish Times, Oct 1)?

About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her sidein the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. The gate which is a large wooden one, was partly opened, and the woman lying partly in the opening and on the street. He immediately roused the neighbours, and by the aid of a candle it was seen that the woman's throat was cut open very nearly from one ear to the other, and her lips were drawn up as if she had suffered sharp pain. She was dressed in black and appeared to be in mourning. She wore a black bonnet, elastic sided boots, and dark stockings. To her breast was a small bouquet of flowers, and in her left hand she had a small packet of scented cachous.

In the Times, which also mentioned Costa (Koster) and the conflicting discovery story, the "little boy" is a "lad". The story is not a perfect match, but close enough to suggest that it was due to Koster that Gilyarovsky was able to see blood before alerting Krantz and Yaffa.

Continuing with the speculation, if Joseph Koster had got too close to the blood, he might have caused himself a problem. Letter to the Evening News, Oct 18:

We have received the following letter:

SIR - Referring to your issue No. [2227], I beg of you to publish a contradictory statement respecting the Whitechapel murder; in fact, your reporter has been wrongly informed, or else it his own suggestion.

The police are not in the house, nor has the woman had a lodger who is now missing, but a stranger brought the shirts, and when he fetched them, he was detained by the police, and after inquiries discharged. As regards our house, it is not as your report describes it, for it is a most respectable house and in good general condition; although it is certainly not Windsor Castle. There are only two lodgers, one a drayman, name of Joseph, who works for the Norwegian Lager Beer Company, and the other a baker, name of Carl Noun, who has been at work in Margate, and only returned on the 6th of this month after the season was over. I trust you will publish these statements as I put it to you, in fact it may injure the poor woman in her business. - Respectfully.

C. NOUN (a lodger in the house).
22, Batty-street, Commercial-road, E., October 17.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Arbeter Fraint, October 5 1888

"At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian".

Twenty plus Mrs D and the club servant in the kitchen plus Krantz and Yaffa in the editor's office, makes 24. So only four to go. So, Spooner and probably Mortimer, possibly Mr Harris, probably Herschburg, and possibly the board school couple. Any others?

Coroner: How many people were there in the yard?
Lamb: I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

How many people from inside the club left before the police arrived?

[GBinOz]

If "Jacobs" was Krantz (it was his real christian name), you might have the answer.
Eagle's reply to the coroner could have been (as you say) - "Diemshutz & Jacobs went for police"

The Telegraph wrote: "Diemshutz, and another man.."

While the Times wrote: "Jacobs, and another man "

Andrew brought this to our attention, so it looks like you were right, above.

Teamwork!

Hi Jon,

I actually raised this possibility back in post #957, but I'm not quite seeing how this fits with the North Eastern Daily Gazette article, unless you are meaning that Diemshitz was with Koze (Isaacs) and Jacobs left with some one else, yet to be named?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

If "Jacobs" was Krantz (it was his real christian name), you might have the answer.
Eagle's reply to the coroner could have been (as you say) - "Diemshutz & Jacobs went for police"

The Telegraph wrote: "Diemshutz, and another man.."

While the Times wrote: "Jacobs, and another man "

Andrew brought this to our attention, so it looks like you were right, above.

Teamwork!

Hi Jon,

We seem to have some simultaneous posts, and I missed this one.

If Jacobs was Krantz, then there is a problem with the North Eastern Daily Gazette article that said it was Isaacs that was with Diemshitz. There were only two men seen by Spooner. And here am I thinking that we had this one solved.

Cheers, George

[New Waterloo]

I think Michael Kidney plays quite a big part in all of this. He is a man who drinks heavily, (yes there are many of them) is aggressive and possessive. His 'partner' has been murdered but still manages to be comical whilst giving evidence at the inquest. He is difficult with the Chair of the Inquest. He lies that they parted on good terms and Stride has been receiving letters from the brother of a previous employer

"Do you know whether she had picked up with any one? - I have seen the address of the brother of the gentleman with whom she lived as a servant, somewhere near Hyde Park, but I cannot find it now."

His wording is a give away. "but I cannot find it now" means exactly that. He has looked for it recently. Is this person Strides date for the night?

Then on Sunday the day of the murder before the identity of Stride is estab he goes to Flower and Dean Street and speaks with Elizabeth Tanner. We do not know what is said but none the less this is significant. Something has caused him to go there. Maybe he has heard that it was Stride who was murdered. How would that be. Stride had no identification on her person and as far as I am aware nobody involved that night knew who she was (or did they)

Just seems he a bit quick off the mark. I believe on the first day of the inquest they were still struggling with her identity. How is he able to go into Leman Street police station and talk about Stride being murdered. If he went into the police station before he had looked at the body then how could he be certain it was her yet he seemed so certain.

I am not convinced Kidney killed Stride but I do believe he was rooting about the area looking for her. Drunk and not happy. I think he is a good candidate for BSM.

NW

[GBinOz]

In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

What about Jacobs?

Not sure I understand the question, but if you are questioning whether Gilyarovsky was Jacobs, we know that Eagle and Koze found the "pair of peacekeepers", so Gilyarovsky must have been Koze. If you are questioning Jacobs involvement, if any, then ....yet to be determined.....could be just a misprint.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

George, let me just draw your attention to something.
First, Gilyarovsky went down to the print shop - Kozebrodski says nothing about that.
Second, Gilyarovski makes no mention of being with Diemshutz when he saw the body - Kozebrodski was with Diem. when he first saw the body.
Third, is the scenario below...

... Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.[/COLOR][/I]

You will see in the accounts of 1 Oct. that Diemshutz had left before Eagle came down to see the body.
Koz. could have left before Diemshutz, or at the latest with him. Either way this Gilyarovsky is still beside Eagle when Eagle said he heard the voice of Diemshutz calling for police.

There isn't anything here to match Gilyarovsky with Kozebrodski, plus the article makes no mention of Jacobs. We have a problem in not knowing how many men ran for police, there could have been several more than the three or four we have been occupied with, Gilyarovsky is another one like Jacobs, one of the many others who joined in.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Well, there is this:
At about one oclock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasnt able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editors office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editors office.
Dont you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard? Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. What, dont you believe me? Gilyarovsky quickly asked: I saw blood. Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

What about Jacobs?

[GBinOz]

So long as were both happy, it is close enough for me, if it is for you then we both win - we have the answer.
Having different points of view is to be preferred, we would solve nothing if everyone agreed.
Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends.

Hi Jon,
I absolutely agree.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

In this long debate, has the name Jacob Rombrow been mentioned?

Sorry Andrew, I missed this.
Good point, I'd forgotten about Krantz, he could have been the other one who ran for a policeman.

[Wickerman]

Your scenario works better if Koze left the yard earlier than Diemshitz, on Diemshitz's instruction, and returned to the yard earlier than Diemshitz and Spooner, but that would require a different man to have been with Diemshitz.......Jacobs?

Best regards, George

If "Jacobs" was Krantz (it was his real christian name), you might have the answer.
Eagle's reply to the coroner could have been (as you say) - "Diemshutz & Jacobs went for police"

The Telegraph wrote: "Diemshutz, and another man.."

While the Times wrote: "Jacobs, and another man "

Andrew brought this to our attention, so it looks like you were right, above.

Teamwork!

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

It may be a long time ago, there's been so so many threads

It doesn't matter who's theory it was, so long as no evidence exists, it doesn't matter what anyone feels. Unless Koz. or someone else saw Koz. go upstairs, then he didn't, so it isn't him.
What else is there?

Hi Jon,

Well, there is this:
At about one oclock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasnt able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editors office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editors office.
Dont you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard? Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. What, dont you believe me? Gilyarovsky quickly asked: I saw blood. Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Great find. That's the decider, and you were right. Well done.

Cheers, George

So long as were both happy, it is close enough for me, if it is for you then we both win - we have the answer.
Having different points of view is to be preferred, we would solve nothing if everyone agreed.
Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Actually, Tom was quoting "mariab". I've been wading through that thread and find the perspective of the Arbeter Fraint to beinteresting. After reading the first few pages I had also formed the opinion that Gilyarovski might be another name for Koze. I noticed that you were a prominent contributor to that thread.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

It may be a long time ago, there's been so so many threads

It doesn't matter who's theory it was, so long as no evidence exists, it doesn't matter what anyone feels. Unless Koz. or someone else saw Koz. go upstairs, then he didn't, so it isn't him.
What else is there?