The Stride Murder

[Lewis C]

I think "at the club" is in contrast to the street. So, inside the club rather than movements in or out.



So, what did she say?

She said, "the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School." So she didn't say that she saw him leave the club.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There can’t be a less reliable witness in the case than Lave surely?

[Wickerman]

I've already mentioned different versions. They differ by about 5 minutes. Just like James Brown at the inquest.

When Lave went out, he was first in the yard and then on the street. Seems he was in a good position to see Stride at the gates, and of course, he did not.

I was meaning the various and inconsistent accounts of what Lave is supposed to have told the press.

"I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour,..."

This is good, he was out for 30 minutes, so must have seen something?
Ah, but wait...

"I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual.... I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard".

So now, Lave was only out for 10 minutes, that must limit what he could witness?
Oh, but it gets worse...

"Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for about five minutes or more.

So, was he really only out for 5 minutes, or more?
So, quite possibly didn't see anything.

Which do we believe?
I don't think we can believe any of them, one may be correct, but which one, and how do we know?
Lave must have given a statement to police, but the coroner did not choose him for the inquest, so perhaps it was the last quote that is the true one?

[New Waterloo]

The statement by the Police Surgeon Phillips is most interesting. Thank you for highlighting it Andrew. It has made me think. There does seem to be quite a lot of blood flow. Something that seems missing in the other murders. I think somebody has said that when you die your heart stops pumping. For there to be all that flow (several feet or yards) it would seem Stride was alive well for some time. Maybe a few seconds or more. I mean I don't know how long the blood would take to flow say 9 feet but I would imagine a bit of time. If she was alive perhaps, I know its a big perhaps she moved. Perhaps her throat was cut and she was still standing when he left. Then she staggered and gently lowered herself to the floor as she died. I dont really understand Phillips comments but he seems to think there was an excess of blood. Perhaps the killer cut himself quite bad and some of the blood was his. Maybe explaining the blood allover one of her hands

Help please. On another point I seem to recall a comment in the thread called "How Strange is This" where a poster mentions another letter (not the Yarmouth one) where the writer says something like "watch out for Jaffa and Co" Not Yaffa but close. I cant seem to find it. Seems a bit close, Jaffa, Yaffa.

[GBinOz]

Possibly, but in which direction - away from the gate or toward it?

PC Lamb: She looked as if she had been laid quietly down, and there was no sign of a struggle.

Which is interesting, but hardly conclusive. So, consider what would have happened if she had been moved toward the gate. There would be an inconsistency of blood flow. That is, there would not have been enough blood between where she had been picked up, to where she had been laid quietly down. What could conceivably have been done to remove the inconsistency? Perhaps this is a clue ...

Coroner: Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
Dr Phillips: I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

If she were killed at the gateway and dragged to where she was found there would have been a blood trail. I think that Lamb's statement indicates that she was killed where she was found and the mud on her dress and face were as a result of her fall in the gateway.

[GBinOz]

Diemshutz already tells us he brought Kozebrodski out of the club, in the Morning Advertiser Diemshutz consistently refers to Koz being with him as "we".
So there it is clear Diemshutz & Kozebrodski both run along Fairclough, they don't have to be side-by-side, they are just two men who ran in the same direction.
Diemshutz is also the one claiming to be shouting "police" as they ran.
Kozebrodski also tells us he ran towards Grove St., which is along Fairclough.
Spooner said two Jews came running towards him shouting "murder", "police".

Also, you know the Telegraph has Eagle telling us Diemshutz ran, with another, along Fairclough.

All sources tells us two men ran along Fairclough towards Grove.

So, how does this "Jacobs" fit in?

Hi Jon,

The Morning Advertiser:
A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one somewhere in Commercial road.
Diemshitz was NOT one of the "we" that found a constable, because he wasn't with Koze.

The interview with Koze was published in three newspapers, The Daily News, and an identical narration in the Evening News and the London Evening News. Here are the two different versions:

A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom.

The next person in importance to Eagle, on whose information we may look forward to getting a clue to the perpetrator of these outrageous crimes is Isaac M. Kozebrodsky. Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly. His information, which we are obliged to give very shortly, is this: "I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard, as he saw there was something unusual had taken place there. So I came out with him, and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door. The blood in the gutter extended to between six and seven yards. I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor. The doctor arrived shortly afterwards, and with him came an inspector. While the doctor examined the body I saw that there were some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left hand. To the best of my recollection, she had on a dark jacket and a black dress, and in her bosom she had a small bunch of flowers."

They are sufficiently similar to deduce that the journalists were listening to the same interview (unless Koze had learned his statement by rote), but they make my point that journalists listening to the same words still come up with different reports, and some include extra detail.

Koze says he went in a direction towards Grove, not that he went to Grove as he would have had to have done had he been with Diemshitz. Why does Koze not mention Spooner or Harris? Because he wasn't there when Diemshitz encountered them.

The evidence tells us that Koze started out in the same direction as Diemshitz but wasn't with him when Diemshitz reached Grove St. But Jacobs was.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

My objection begins with the question I asked you - how do you explain one reply from Eagle refering to two different people?
You never did answer that.

Yeah I did, you just missed it - post # 931.

[FISHY1118]

One of the reason's yes.
Another is that, from the point of view of the killer, he cannot allow a witness to escape. So the killer is going to chase the witness down to kill him also.



All witnesses who stood over the body say she was found in the darkest part, she could not be seen.
We can't have it both ways - if Schwartz saw the attack, she had to be outside the shadows, so if she is found in a spot where she could not be seen, then how could anyone see the attack?

Schwartz saw the assault on Stride nothing else.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

All witnesses who stood over the body say she was found in the darkest part, she could not be seen.
We can't have it both ways - if Schwartz saw the attack, she had to be outside the shadows, so if she is found in a spot where she could not be seen, then how could anyone see the attack?

He doesn't need to see it - he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly - the auditory system can sense the direction of sounds.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Because there's no other accounts to verify or corroborate his story, it actually strengthens the case for him having seen Stride being thrown down where she was murdered.

He was of course within a few yards of BS Man and could have seen her thrown down to where she waa later found.

IT is commonplace to find errors in translation and because a0 he wasn't English speaking and b) there were no OTHER witnesses that said Stride was thrown down onto THE FOOTWAY, then isn't it just a simple case of him meaning the other side of the footway where she was later found?

I think because 'only a matter of a few feet (no more than 10 feet), it's likely that we have just been avoiding the elephant in the room and therefore IF Schwartz was telling the truth; that he actually saw the man who murdered her, but no one else came forward DESPITE several newspapers stating that "THOSE who witnessed the assault"

Schwartz was close.

Someone had a knife.

Schwartz ... describes the first man, who threw the woman down: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

It wasn't the first man.

Ergo, Schwartz killed Stride.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't think that her statement is clear that "there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club". Does it mean inside the club, or going in and out of the club?

I think "at the club" is in contrast to the street. So, inside the club rather than movements in or out.

I do think though that if she had seen Goldstein come out of the club, she would have said so.

So, what did she say?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was her body moved post-mortem BEFORE the police arrived?

Possibly, but in which direction - away from the gate or toward it?

PC Lamb: She looked as if she had been laid quietly down, and there was no sign of a struggle.

Which is interesting, but hardly conclusive. So, consider what would have happened if she had been moved toward the gate. There would be an inconsistency of blood flow. That is, there would not have been enough blood between where she had been picked up, to where she had been laid quietly down. What could conceivably have been done to remove the inconsistency? Perhaps this is a clue ...

Coroner: Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
Dr Phillips: I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'd just like to highlight the sequence of movements that Schwartz claimed he saw BS Man make.

He says that he saw BS Man APPROACH her; suggesting that BS Man WASN'T ALREADY STANDING WITH HER and had just walked up to her.

STRIDE is already standing BY HERSELF AT THE GATEWAY

Schwartz then says that BS Man then attacked Stride, but initially, he appears to try and drag Stride into the Street, ergo, AWAY FROM THE YARD.

Just let the bold text sink in, if it hasn't already. Man with broad shoulders tries to pull very thin woman with bad leg, but ... but what? Was she too strong for him? Was she holding onto the gate?

It's as though Schwartz is offering up an excuse for why Stride was found inside the line of the gates, and not on the street.

BS Man then appears to spin her around and then THROW HER DOWN to the ground onto the FOOTWAY.

Schwartz's proximity to BS Man would appear to be very close; because he implies that he is just a few yards away when the assault occurs.

Schwartz's proximity seemingly led the Star editorial writer to pen the following ...

... the story of a man who is said to have seen the Berner-street tragedy, and declares that one man butchered and another man watched, is, we think, a priori incredible.

He then crosses the road to avoid the apparent domestic.

Why not keeping heading south, as he had been?

It's at THIS POINT when he claims that BS Man shouts over to Pipeman "Lipski"

Schwartz's focus from THIS POINT is NOT ON STRIDE, meaning that from the point that BS man shouts out, Schwartz's focus is on Pipeman and trying to get away from the scene.

Schwartz seems to suggest he believed that Pipeman was with BS man, but we have BS man traveling south towards the club, and we have Pipeman already standing on the other side of the road, i.e. Pipeman does NOT walk with BS man at any point.

If there is any truth to the story, having the men walk and arrive at the spot separately and yet be known to each other, would suggest that they were members of the club, or on WVC patrol.

It is possible that Stride may oft had her throat cut just moments AFTER BS Man shouts out to Pipeman, because Schwartz does not observe Stride AFTER she has been thrown to the ground.

Could the 3 intermittent screams have come from Stride as a result of her windpipe having been cut as she is thrown onto the floor? I.e. could she have tried to scream, but only 3 small screams were audible due to her windpipe having been cut?

I don't think that would be possible.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yaffa?...

That's rather odd because Yaffa is most certainly a woman's name.

"Yaffa" is Yiddish for "Beautiful"


Was Yaffa Eagle's girlfriend, whom he said he walked home before returning around 12.40am?


Yaffa is a woman for sure. If not, then it would be the equivalent of calling a man "Bella"


And so, who was Yaffa?



Interesting


RD

This is a good question, and you do deserve some sort of answer.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You must have seen several posts that offer up conflicting press versions of an interview with Lave, check them out yourself.
You picked one as your example, but how do you know it was the correct one?
this is the trouble with Lave, we do not know when he went out of the club, or for how long he was out. So his statement has no use.

I've already mentioned different versions. They differ by about 5 minutes. Just like James Brown at the inquest.

When Lave went out, he was first in the yard and then on the street. Seems he was in a good position to see Stride at the gates, and of course, he did not.