The Stride Murder

[Fleetwood Mac]

and she was killed by someone with expertise.

I reckon this whole expertise thing is overplayed.

The nature of the cut to Liz's throat is what experienced pathologists expect to see, whether or not the murderer has knowledge. The wound, when a killer cuts a victim's throat from behind, follows a pattern; and the left carotid artery being severed is an inevitable consequence of the position of killer and victim as opposed to necessarily targeting that left carotid artery.

What's more instructive is that the murderer and Liz are in a very dark spot. That's not by accident. Dark enough for Morris Eagle to not know that a body could be lying there, and dark enough for Louis to pass Liz's body before his pony shied, in other words Louis didn't see anything as he passed Liz's body.

Two people in a very dark spot are there for a reason, the murderer with his own reason.

[S.Brett]

Was Eagle one of those locked into the yard, and thus on Reid's list of 28?

Reid:

"As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves. The houses were inspected a second time and the occupants examined and their rooms searched. A loft close by was searched, but no trace could be found of the murderer".

I have no idea how many people living in the stableyard and from outside the yard had come into the yard. Itīs possible that some "members of the club" were not searched at that time because they were no longer "on-site".

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/dutfields-yard-and-berner-street/9131-berner-street-census-1881-1891

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

AFAIK police times were established by a sergeant with a pocket watch regulated at a police station establishing a clock correction for a clock visible on the beat - Fixed point for instance. The time given by Eagle was a long time estimate. If the footfalls that Mortimer heard were made by Smith, then her clock would have been around ten minutes fast. IMO the clock in the club was about 10 minutes slow.

Cheers, George

I understand your position on this, George, and I partly agree with it. However, I think it's a question of a policeman on a regulated beat versus the weight of the remaining evidence, which supports a 1am discovery time. However, as Wick mentioned in #1025, there is just too much going on at around this time for all of it to have happened within a few minutes. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between - Diemschitz reaching Berner St at 4 or 5 minutes to one, and Smith doing the same 4 or 5 minutes after one. That would mean the cries of murder were heard almost right on 1am GMT.

William Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Now, what about that Schwartz/Goldstein chap? Or do you still cling to the notion that these identities were two separate men?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So Eagle claims in one interview that he did not see the body, but testifies at the inquest that he struck a match and did see the body. He also testifies that a member named "Isaac" was with him at the time. Was this Isaac Kozebrodski, or was Jacobs named Isaac, AKA Gilyarovsky? How can Gilyarovsky be named as one of the finders of the "peace-keepers".

Regardless of Eagle's return to club time being a rough estimate, I reckon he did arrive at about the time Smith was passing and did see Stride. The quotes hint at an element of denial. Understandable, especially if he'd had some sort of contact with her, verbal or physical or both.

I'm still thinking about the Kozebrodski/Gilyarovsky stuff.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Some interesting points. I have some observations on Eagle's testimony and interviews.

Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police. I did not touch her.
The CORONER. - Did you see if her clothes were disturbed?
Witness. - I could not say. When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!"

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

So Eagle claims in one interview that he did not see the body, but testifies at the inquest that he struck a match and did see the body. He also testifies that a member named "Isaac" was with him at the time. Was this Isaac Kozebrodski, or was Jacobs named Isaac, AKA Gilyarovsky? How can Gilyarovsky be named as one of the finders of the "peace-keepers".

Best regards, George

Hi George,

Thanks for your feedback.

Regarding Jacobs, I don’t think it matters much if there was a Jacobs or not. If so, he played an insignificant role and the most we can say is that he didn’t go with Diemshutz & Kozebrodski in the direction of Grove Street, but took some other direction.

I have a slight preference for it being a mishearing or misprint, though, as I’d find it quite odd that, if Eagle did mention both Diemschutz and Jacobs, there would be no newspaper that carried both names. Plus, if Jacobs would instead have been Jacobson or any other 3 syllable name, then I’d be more inclined to believe there was a third person running out with Diemschutz. But, again, I don’t think it matters much.

Then, as to when Eagle is supposed to have ran out, there are various things that might tell us something about that. There’s his own statement that said that he heard Diemschutz calling for the police and that would, quite probably, have been on Diemschutz’s way to Grove Street and much less likely on his way back. On the other hand, we have Kozebrodski saying that he “afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.” and Lamb stating that two men came running to him shouting. I can’t help but wonder if both Lamb and Kozebrodski would have put it the way they did if Kozebrodski had turned into Batty Street to see if he could find a copper in Commercial Road and, so, would only have joined Eagle at the top of Batty Street, which would have been only some 30 yards from Lamb at that point. To me, that wouldn’t fit well with how Kozebrodski and Lamb stated what they’re supposed to have stated.

Therefore, I think it’s more likely that Kozebrodski joined Eagle while the latter had already left the yard but was still on Berner Street or, perhaps – but less likely – he joined Eagle on Commercial Road, with Eagle returning from the stretch of Commercial Road west of Berner Street.

Then we have Mortimer stating that “A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm”, which fits very well with Spooner testimony, suggesting very much that Diemschutz had already returned to the yard with Spooner when Mortimer arrived. I know you believe Mrs. Artisan to be another woman than Mortimer, but if you’re wrong, then it might well have been Eagle passing her door yelling for the police that made her come out and run to the yard. But, of course, if they weren’t one and the same, then Mortimer arrived in the yard just the same after Diemschutz had arrived back with Spooner or, at least, that’s the impression her account gives.

As to Gilyarovski, yes, according to the Arbeter Fraint he was one of the finders of the coppers, so according to that he must have been Kozebrodski. According to the rest of what the Arbeter Fraint wrote, he very much doesn’t seem to have been Kozebrodski. I, for one, don’t put a lot of stock in the AF. But that’s just me.

All the best,
Frank

[GBinOz]

If we say 1:09, and we give Smith a whole 2 minutes to walk from the top of Berner St to the yard, then Smith was off by 7 minutes. That seems a lot to me. On the other hand, if true, would we expect there to have a been a measured, heavy tramp past #36, shortly before a quarter to one?



I have wondered if Smith based his timings on a clock further along Commercial Rd. A ~12:54 arrival would be interesting, as various estimates would probably need to be pushed back. So, Eagle might be arriving at ~12:35, for example. Just before Smith. Also, you might have Fanny locking up at about 12:50, meaning that the path of Schwartz and Goldstein through Berner St was not only similar in direction, but similar in time too. However, how could she have seen one of these men and not the other?

Hi Andrew,

AFAIK police times were established by a sergeant with a pocket watch regulated at a police station establishing a clock correction for a clock visible on the beat - Fixed point for instance. The time given by Eagle was a long time estimate. If the footfalls that Mortimer heard were made by Smith, then her clock would have been around ten minutes fast. IMO the clock in the club was about 10 minutes slow.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi Jon & George,

For what it’s worth, here’s my view on the search parties – after having read up on this thread.

I think Kozebrodski may have run out of the yard a little ahead of Diemshutz and that he also returned to the yard somewhat ahead of Diemshutz & Spooner (that Diemshutz more or less stopped to talk to Spooner, while Kozebrodski continued ahead of him). Kozebrodski & Diemshutz being the only two running past Spooner, just as he testified.

Jacobs was possibly a third man that ran south out of the yard. If so, he must have continued south on Berner Street or turned west towards Backchurch Lane, while the other two went in the direction of Grove Street. Or “Jacobs” was just a mishearing for “Diemshutz”. Diemshutz wasn’t a common name and perhaps Eagle didn’t say/pronounce it very clearly. Seeing that both names have two syllables, the reporter in question may have made “Jacobs” – a much more common name - of what was actually being said.
I like the first explanation, but not the second.

Then I think that Mortimer came outside again right after hearing Eagle pass her door shouting for the police. Mortimer, stating “A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm”, seems to have seen Spooner lift Stride’s chin, feeling it was quite warm. So, she came out right after Eagle passed and entered the yard when Diemshutz had already returned with Spooner. Depending, of course, how “immediately” Mortimer actually went out to see what was going on, it seems to me that Eagle left very shortly before Diemshutz returned with Spooner. Diemshutz could have arrived back in the yard within 1.5 to 2 minutes, maybe even less (from the yard to Grove Street & back would be around 300 meters/990 ft).

Kozebrodski, returning a bit ahead of Diemshutz & Spooner, may very well have “went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle”, just as he’s stated to have said. So, I think he saw Eagle running north and he caught up with him before reaching Commercial Road. Or he arrived back at the yard just before/when Eagle started running out.
Eagle did say that he left immediately after seeing the blood.

I agree with Jon that Kozebrodski and Gilyarovsky at least don’t seem to be one and the same. Where Kozebrodski seems to have been called to accompany Diemshutz into the garden, Gilyarovski then went to the printing shop and then into the editor’s office to find Yaffa and Krantz. And that clearly isn’t running out “immediately” or “without delay” to find a policeman.

The best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Some interesting points. I have some observations on Eagle's testimony and interviews.

Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police. I did not touch her.
The CORONER. - Did you see if her clothes were disturbed?
Witness. - I could not say. When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!"

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

So Eagle claims in one interview that he did not see the body, but testifies at the inquest that he struck a match and did see the body. He also testifies that a member named "Isaac" was with him at the time. Was this Isaac Kozebrodski, or was Jacobs named Isaac, AKA Gilyarovsky? How can Gilyarovsky be named as one of the finders of the "peace-keepers".

Best regards, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Pinning a time on it would be quite difficult, Andrew, but he arrived between PC Collins arriving in the yard (in reaction to Lamb's whistle) and Edward Johns(t)on, Blackwell’s assistant. If we'd use Blackwell's timing as a basis, then Collins arrived around 1.06 am and Johnston at about 1.12 or 1.13. But it was probably some minutes earlier on the clock Smith based his timing on. Or his estimate was some minutes off on the early side.

If we say 1:09, and we give Smith a whole 2 minutes to walk from the top of Berner St to the yard, then Smith was off by 7 minutes. That seems a lot to me. On the other hand, if true, would we expect there to have a been a measured, heavy tramp past #36, shortly before a quarter to one?

Hi Andrew,

Lamb was found at about 1 o'clock police time. He had just viewed his reference clock so this would be reasonably accurate. Smith was on police time, but estimating from when he last saw a reference clock, so I would guess around 1:04. Diemshitz claimed he looked at the Harris Tobacco clock which was not necessarily synched with police time. I would estimate he arrived about 10 minutes before Smith.

Cheers, George

I have wondered if Smith based his timings on a clock further along Commercial Rd. A ~12:54 arrival would be interesting, as various estimates would probably need to be pushed back. So, Eagle might be arriving at ~12:35, for example. Just before Smith. Also, you might have Fanny locking up at about 12:50, meaning that the path of Schwartz and Goldstein through Berner St was not only similar in direction, but similar in time too. However, how could she have seen one of these men and not the other?

[GBinOz]

Agreed. Something has to 'give'.

So, what about the period between Diemschitz and Smith? How many minutes?

Hi Andrew,

Lamb was found at about 1 o'clock police time. He had just viewed his reference clock so this would be reasonably accurate. Smith was on police time, but estimating from when he last saw a reference clock, so I would guess around 1:04. Diemshitz claimed he looked at the Harris Tobacco clock which was not necessarily synched with police time. I would estimate he arrived about 10 minutes before Smith.

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

So quite a bit of time elapses from the time of discovery to when Eagle and others are observing the victim.
At what time do you suppose PC Smith arrived at the yard?

Pinning a time on it would be quite difficult, Andrew, but he arrived between PC Collins arriving in the yard (in reaction to Lamb's whistle) and Edward Johns(t)on, Blackwell’s assistant. If we'd use Blackwell's timing as a basis, then Collins arrived around 1.06 am and Johnston at about 1.12 or 1.13. But it was probably some minutes earlier on the clock Smith based his timing on. Or his estimate was some minutes off on the early side.

[FrankO]

Ok, George, I got it.

This is from Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.
Diemshutz - "....but went off at once for the police. We passed several streets without meeting a policeman, and we returned without one. All the men who were with me halloaed as loud as they could for the police, but no one came. When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as he lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat."

He's not talking about on the way back, is he?
It reads to me like the next sentence "When I returned..." is the start of the account of his return journey.
We've just jumped hoops & hurdles to try establish two men left the yard (Diem. & Koz.), and now it could be that more left the yard than we thought.
We have no contention how many past Spooner, he say two Jews hollering, so the others must have left they yard and gone down different streets?
So, there's room now for more than two leaving the yard before, after, or with Louis Deimshutz.

Hi Jon & George,

For what it’s worth, here’s my view on the search parties – after having read up on this thread.

I think Kozebrodski may have run out of the yard a little ahead of Diemshutz and that he also returned to the yard somewhat ahead of Diemshutz & Spooner (that Diemshutz more or less stopped to talk to Spooner, while Kozebrodski continued ahead of him). Kozebrodski & Diemshutz being the only two running past Spooner, just as he testified.

Jacobs was possibly a third man that ran south out of the yard. If so, he must have continued south on Berner Street or turned west towards Backchurch Lane, while the other two went in the direction of Grove Street. Or “Jacobs” was just a mishearing for “Diemshutz”. Diemshutz wasn’t a common name and perhaps Eagle didn’t say/pronounce it very clearly. Seeing that both names have two syllables, the reporter in question may have made “Jacobs” – a much more common name - of what was actually being said.

Then I think that Mortimer came outside again right after hearing Eagle pass her door shouting for the police. Mortimer, stating “A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm”, seems to have seen Spooner lift Stride’s chin, feeling it was quite warm. So, she came out right after Eagle passed and entered the yard when Diemshutz had already returned with Spooner. Depending, of course, how “immediately” Mortimer actually went out to see what was going on, it seems to me that Eagle left very shortly before Diemshutz returned with Spooner. Diemshutz could have arrived back in the yard within 1.5 to 2 minutes, maybe even less (from the yard to Grove Street & back would be around 300 meters/990 ft).

Kozebrodski, returning a bit ahead of Diemshutz & Spooner, may very well have “went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle”, just as he’s stated to have said. So, I think he saw Eagle running north and he caught up with him before reaching Commercial Road. Or he arrived back at the yard just before/when Eagle started running out.

I agree with Jon that Kozebrodski and Gilyarovsky at least don’t seem to be one and the same. Where Kozebrodski seems to have been called to accompany Diemshutz into the garden, Gilyarovski then went to the printing shop and then into the editor’s office to find Yaffa and Krantz. And that clearly isn’t running out “immediately” or “without delay” to find a policeman.

The best,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No prob!

Isaac Kozebrodsky "Isaacs" (maybe "Jacob" Gilyarovsky "Jacobs"?)
Morris Eagle
Philip Krantz (Jacob Rombro) & Yaffa
(Simeon?) Fridenthal (Gildeman?)

Was Eagle one of those locked into the yard, and thus on Reid's list of 28?

ME: There were lots of people present in the yard at the time we returned. One of the constables said to his companion, "Go for a doctor," and turning to me he said, "Go to the police-station for the inspector."

I've always assumed he then came back to the yard. Is that necessarily so? If cast in the role of the BS man, he might have gone somewhere else.

That's only a half-serious suggestion, because it's conceivable that Eagle might have been involved in some push and shove with Stride, but not that he was JtR. Assuming he existed, I can't the BS man killing Stride, but the timing is pretty much perfect, and she was killed by someone with expertise. It doesn't 'add up'.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that would be an entertaining question to try resolve.
Given that Diemshutz says he arrived in the yard at 1:00 am, PC Lamb was between Christian and Batty, in Comm. Rd. at 1:00 am, and PC Smith was at the corner of Comm. Rd. & Berner St. also at 1:00 am.
And yet quite some activity is understood to have taken place between Diemshutz & PC Lamb appearing on the scene, followed by PC Smith some time after.

Agreed. Something has to 'give'.

So, what about the period between Diemschitz and Smith? How many minutes?

[Wickerman]

So quite a bit of time elapses from the time of discovery to when Eagle and others are observing the victim.
At what time do you suppose PC Smith arrived at the yard?

I think that would be an entertaining question to try resolve.
Given that Diemshutz says he arrived in the yard at 1:00 am, PC Lamb was between Christian and Batty, in Comm. Rd. at 1:00 am, and PC Smith was at the corner of Comm. Rd. & Berner St. also at 1:00 am.
And yet quite some activity is understood to have taken place between Diemshutz & PC Lamb appearing on the scene, followed by PC Smith some time after.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

- Gilyarovsky goes back into the club and goes upstairs to announce the woman dead in the yard. Eagle, with others, follow Gilyarovsky out into the yard, where Eagle strikes a match and saw the blood.
Whether Gilyarovsky ran to the print office before he went back into the club, or after is not known.
All sources have Diemshutz & Kozebrodski leaving directly after they see the body.
Kozebrodski, is out on the streets & Gilyarovsky goes back in the club - they are two different people.


Other newspapers call him Gilleman (Times, 2nd Oct.) or Gildeman (Echo, 1st Oct.).

So quite a bit of time elapses from the time of discovery to when Eagle and others are observing the victim.
At what time do you suppose PC Smith arrived at the yard?