The Stride Murder

[S.Brett]

Fri(e)denthal

Ripperologist 152

Randy Williams says:

Samuel Friedman (Freedman), cap- blocker/ hat shaper/maker, 31(81?) Weaver Street, Spitalfields, later a tailor with a shop very close to the IWMEC (in 1891, 47 years old)

(see i.a.Times, 19 March 1889)

[S.Brett]

I meant, after the discovery. Apologies for the ambiguous question.

No prob!

Isaac Kozebrodsky "Isaacs" (maybe "Jacob" Gilyarovsky "Jacobs"?)
Morris Eagle
Philip Krantz (Jacob Rombro) & Yaffa
(Simeon?) Fridenthal (Gildeman?)

Mrs. Diemschutz?

Louis Diemschutz:

"No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor"... "There were several members (Kozebrodsky, Eagle, Fridenthal?) in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard"

I think these six people did not belong to the "about twenty of the members remained in the club"... "created a choir and sang various songs" (AF, 5.10.1888)

Arbeter Fraint, 5 Oktober 1888:

"Everyone’s names and addresses were taken, and everyone was questioned as to whether they had seen anything unusual".

I guess the "singers" from at about 12 o’clock were not as important as the members with other activities than singing around the time of the murder.

How many of the "singers" went into the yard before the police arrived?

No idea!

[The Rookie Detective]

Coincidentally, the surname 'Jacobs' appears somewhere else.

When Eddowes was discharged from the police station, she gave her address as 6 Fashion Street.


I've always wondered why.


Well in 1891 there were 2 families living at 6 Fashion Street..one of which was the 'Silverman' family and the other was the 'JACOBS' family.


Joseph Jacobs was a Jewish Tailor (aged 42 in 1891)

It would be within reason to suggest the Jacobs family may have lived there in 1888 also.


RD

[Wickerman]

Gilyarovsky is interesting. The only way he could have seen blood in the following passage from Der Arbeter Fraint, is by reaching the printing and editor's offices by first exiting the side door, and then checking on the victim alone, before heading out to the offices.

From excitement he [Comrade Louis Dimshits] jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate.

So, a part of the story seems to be missing, but considering how it continues, how could Gilyarovsky have seen blood?...

The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

Firstly, this demonstrates that while very dark, the passageway was not so dark that the victim could not be seen at all. This is relevant to what and where Schwartz witnessed Stride going to the ground, and the possibility of Eagle missing Stride lying on the passageway, on his return to the club.

Back to Gilyarovsky. How did he see blood, seemingly without a match? Well, what happens if we try to match this missing piece of the puzzle, with the Joseph Koster story (Irish Times, Oct 1)?

As you suggested initially, part of the story is missing.
Gilyarovsky had to come out of the club and been one of them who stood over thebody while matches or a candle was lit - all this has been missed out.
The paper is only giving the hi-lites.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

We seem to have some simultaneous posts, and I missed this one.

If Jacobs was Krantz, then there is a problem with the North Eastern Daily Gazette article that said it was Isaacs that was with Diemshitz. There were only two men seen by Spooner. And here am I thinking that we had this one solved.

Cheers, George

Yesterday I came across a quote by Diemshutz where he says "the men that were with me", darn, I've misplaced the quote now.
When I saw it I thought he was talking about after they picked up Spooner - because there would be three of them.
So, I passed over it, but now as I think, we actually don't know how many left the yard with Diem. we only have Spooner saying two came towards him.
I wonder if three could have left the yard, except one took a different street?

[Wickerman]

Not sure I understand the question, but if you are questioning whether Gilyarovsky was Jacobs, we know that Eagle and Koze found the "pair of peacekeepers", so Gilyarovsky must have been Koze. If you are questioning Jacobs involvement, if any, then ....yet to be determined.....could be just a misprint.

Cheers, George

Not that George.
You had been promoting the idea one of the runners was named "Jacobs", but you just posted a list that does not include a "Jacobs".

[The Rookie Detective]

I don't think we can ever know, but possibly this guy.

Wow, that link was one hell of a read; need a break after that!

The author of that article says that PC Neil was walking down Thomas Street when he first saw Nichols and that Kelly was murdered at McCarthy's property at 5 Mitre Square...

Absolute nonsense.

There were some great points raised and a lot that made me think about a bigger conspiracy...but when some of the basic facts are wrong, then it completely ruins the authenticity of the piece.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

William West/Wess:

About 70?

I meant, after the discovery. Apologies for the ambiguous question.

[S.Brett]

Twenty plus Mrs D and the club servant in the kitchen plus Krantz and Yaffa in the editor's office, makes 24. So only four to go. So, Spooner and probably Mortimer, possibly Mr Harris, probably Herschburg, and possibly the board school couple. Any others?

Coroner: How many people were there in the yard?
Lamb: I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

How many people from inside the club left before the police arrived?

William West/Wess:

About 70?

"How many members are there in the club? - From seventy-five to eighty. Working men of any nationality can join...

... From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit. From twenty to thirty members remained, some staying in the lecture-room and the others going downstairs. Of those upstairs a few continued the discussion, while the rest were singing..."

[Herlock Sholmes]

the name YAFFA is a WOMAN'S name; it's Yiddish for "BEAUTFIUL"...

The literal equivalent to the name "Bella" in Italian.


So, who was "Yaffa?"



RD

From the Arbeiter Fraint article:

“Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Can someone confirm who JACOBS was?

I don't think we can ever know, but possibly this guy.

[The Rookie Detective]

Can someone confirm who JACOBS was?


Do we have any definitive evidence to confirm he was at the club?


Did he go by another name?


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I am not convinced Kidney killed Stride but I do believe he was rooting about the area looking for her. Drunk and not happy. I think he is a good candidate for BSM.

Do you suppose Schwartz was called in to identify Kidney as being one of the men he had seen on Berner St?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Jon,

Well, there is this:
At about one oclock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasnt able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editors office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editors office.
Dont you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard? Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. What, dont you believe me? Gilyarovsky quickly asked: I saw blood. Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: Get up! Why are you waking her? asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. Dont you see that the woman is dead?
[P. 3, col. 2]
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

I cant see that there is a doubt that Koze, Isaacs and Gilyarovsky are the same person.

Cheers, George

the name YAFFA is a WOMAN'S name; it's Yiddish for "BEAUTFIUL"...

The literal equivalent to the name "Bella" in Italian.


So, who was "Yaffa?"



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

So long as were both happy, it is close enough for me, if it is for you then we both win - we have the answer.
Having different points of view is to be preferred, we would solve nothing if everyone agreed.
Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends.

Best quote of the thread. Absolutely brilliant.