The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

...
This suggests to me that, apart from Diemshitz and Koze , there were other members that left to search for a policeman - so a minimum of four in total.

Do you think it is possible that Eagle actually said "Diemshitz and Jacobs" but The Daily Telegraph reported "Diemshitz and another man", the Times reported "Jacobs and another man"? Bear in mind that other publications didn't report either. Are you aware of other publications that reported in the form of "X and another man"?

Hi George.

Yes, I think Diemshutz, being the club steward likely sent various members to find a policeman, I asked you that just recently.
I think we have the same problem, it's what we call kicking the can down the road. If we assume, as you say, then we are then including "Jacobs" as one of many legitimate searchers, so then we are faced with - why no further mention of him?
If you are satisfied this "Jacobs" joined the search team, but went in some completely different direction, then ok. That will then leave the search team of Diem and Koz alone to run down Fairclough, and them two bring back Spooner.
At the Yard, Koz continues up Berner St. to Commercial Rd., leaving Diem. and Spooner to return into the yard. As far as we can tell, this is what the surviving statements suggest.

[S.Brett]

I wonder how many of the 28 were from the club? At 1am, there were at least two in the kitchen and two others in the editor's office.

Arbeter Fraint, October 5 1888

"At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian".

[FrankO]

It's just that Batty is only 100 ft from Christian St., so from Spooner, how could he fail to notice three men coming up the street from Berner shouting at the top of their voice? PC Lamb said he could have seen anyone running away from 40 Berner from his beat in Commercial Rd., that's about 300 ft, so lighting cannot have been a problem.
Even if you want Koz. to leave the trio by running up Batty, Spooner was near enough to have seen & especially heard, the three men coming from Berner St.
Rethink?

Hi Jon,

The same goes for Lamb when he was alerted to the murder. The way his testimony reads, certainly doesn't suggest that one (Kozebrodski) surfaced from Batty Street - which would only have been some 30 yards away from where Lamb was at the moment - while the other had come running from further away, the direction of Berner Street. It reads as if the two men came running to him together and from further away than Batty Street. Also, Kozebrodski stated that he "went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle", which supports the notion that Kozebrodski had joined Eagle before the latter had reached Commercial Road and that they came running towards Lamb together (and that Kozebrodski hadn't just joined Eagle right under Lamb's nose).

Everything's possible of course, but the evidence sure doesn't read as if Kozebrodski was joining Eagle in Commercial Road from Batty Street, only some 30 yards away from Lamb.

The best,
Frank

PS Kozebrodski is stated to have said "I afterwards went into Commercial-road along with Eagle", which would support the idea that he first finished his search "in the direction of Grove Street", then returned to where he started from - Berner Street - and then joined Eagle somewhere before the latter reached Commercial Road.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What you propose requires three men leaving the yard to run along Fairclough, yet all accounts only speak to two men running towards Grove.
There's no need to create a third man, and this erroneous Jacobs appears nowhere else in the drama.
There are plenty of typographical errors to hi-lite if it comes to debating the subject, it's not like typo's are rare, so we can't go down that path.

This seems correct to me, but ...

So, either this Jacobs is another name for Isaac Kozebrodski, or another name, or misprint for Louis Diemshutz, or a third man running along Fairclough.

... another name for Kozebrodski or a misprint of Diemschitz seems unlikely.

In this long debate, has the name Jacob Rombrow been mentioned?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there were about 70 people in the yard when the police declared a crime scene. Only a portion of them were interviewed, and I agree that it is a shame that Jacobs wasn't one of them.

Detective-inspector Edmund Reid, H Division, stated, - I received a telegram at 1:25 a.m. on Sunday morning at the Commercial-street police office. I at once proceeded to 40, Berner-street. I saw there Chief Inspector West, Inspector Pinhorn, several sergeants and constables, Drs. Phillips and Blackwell, a number of residents in the yard, and club members, with persons who had come into the yard and had been shut in by the police. At that time Dr. Phillips, with Dr. Blackwell, was examining the throat of the deceased woman. Superintendent Arnold followed in, as well as several other officers. When it was found a murder had been committed a thorough search was made of the yard, houses, and buildings, but no trace could be found of any person likely to have committed the deed. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched, and their clothes and hands examined. There were 28 of them. Each person was dealt with separately. They properly accounted for themselves, and were then allowed to leave. The houses were then visited a second time and the names of the people therein taken, and they were also examined and their rooms searched. The door of the loft was found locked on the inside, and it was forced. The loft was searched, but no trace of the murderer could be found.

I wonder how many of the 28 were from the club? At 1am, there were at least two in the kitchen and two others in the editor's office.

Julius Minsky, a Polish Jew, and a member of the club, states that at the time when the alarm was raised, just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs. Ref

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The statement by the Police Surgeon Phillips is most interesting. Thank you for highlighting it Andrew. It has made me think. There does seem to be quite a lot of blood flow. Something that seems missing in the other murders.

It's interesting in the context of arguments about Schwartz and the footway vs passageway distinction, and how Stride ended up where she did. This interpretation based on Phillips' comments about the blood, suggests the interesting movement of the victim was from close to the side door to close to the gates.

Consider a murder close to the side door, given these comments. Those three screams must have been whisper quiet.

Also consider this:

Lamb: When I got there I had the gates shut.
Coroner: But did not the feet of the deceased touch the gate?
Lamb: No; they went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body.

Starting from the gateway, how did Stride end up with her feet partially behind the gate? On the other hand, if she'd been moved toward the gate ...

I think somebody has said that when you die your heart stops pumping. For there to be all that flow (several feet or yards) it would seem Stride was alive well for some time. Maybe a few seconds or more. I mean I don't know how long the blood would take to flow say 9 feet but I would imagine a bit of time. If she was alive perhaps, I know its a big perhaps she moved. Perhaps her throat was cut and she was still standing when he left. Then she staggered and gently lowered herself to the floor as she died. I dont really understand Phillips comments but he seems to think there was an excess of blood. Perhaps the killer cut himself quite bad and some of the blood was his. Maybe explaining the blood allover one of her hands

The quantity of blood at the time of the discovery suggests the murderer had left minutes ago.

[GBinOz]

Well yes, it is mutual, it's just there is a difference between what one of us thinks may happened in the absence of any statement from "Jacobs", as opposed to what Koz claimed happened and we both know he was present.

Hi Jon,

I think that we would agree that:
1. Diemshitz, Koze and Eagle were part of the search parties.
2. Diemshitz went down Fairclough to Grove St and back with another person, and Spooner came back with them. They failed to find a PC on this journey.
3. Eagle went to Commercial Road and at sometime was joined by Koze, and they together found Lamb.

I found this excerpt in the Morning Advertiser Oct 1:

A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood on the gutter, terminating in a hideous pool near the club door, showed but too plainly what had happened. Both ran off without delay to find a policeman, and at the same time other members of the club, who had by this found their way into the court, went off with the same object in different directions.

This suggests to me that, apart from Diemshitz and Koze , there were other members that left to search for a policeman - so a minimum of four in total.

Do you think it is possible that Eagle actually said "Diemshitz and Jacobs" but The Daily Telegraph reported "Diemshitz and another man", the Times reported "Jacobs and another man"? Bear in mind that other publications didn't report either. Are you aware of other publications that reported in the form of "X and another man"?

Cheers, George

[New Waterloo]

This idea might be a big off the wall so to speak but thinking about Pipe Man. Was he an undercover policeman. Perhaps a member of Special (Irish) Branch. This may not be as far fetched as it sounds.

The Berner Street Club was not just a sing along get together place. It was an important meeting place of radicals and anarchists. I am not saying all who attended were anti establishment but many were. Talks were held at the club where individuals with quite extreme views as such would voice their opinions.

With effectively only one way into the club from the street (yes I know front door and side door) it would be an ideal place for somebody to stand and watch who comes and goes. Now imagine to the horror of SB that a murder takes place whilst an undercover officer is nearby. The last person the police would want at the inquest would be Schwartz. The whole operation could be put at risk.

I am not sure how secretive these things were but I think its feasible. Interestingly it doesn't really affect the murder investigation. Perhaps Schwartz sees the altercation between BSM as does Pipeman, and so Pipeman follows/chases off Schwartz to make sure he has left the area. Maybe Pipeman doesn't go back or realises that things are more serious than a domestic. Fearing with all the commotion his cover will be blown his observations are abandoned. He just seems a bit odd, hanging around smoking a pipe right by a club frequented by a few but significant anarchists. On realization of what happened SB just keep quiet. The 'ordinary police' well lower ranks wouldn't have a clue. NW

[Wickerman]

I fully realize you could reply in the same vein about Jacobs, that just because Diemshutz doesn't mention him, I can't argue he wasn't there - it works both ways, right? Right!
Except, at least I do have Koz. saying he did set off "I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one.",
You don't have that, why, because he wasn't there..
Right? Wrong!
Koze actually said "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one". Koze left before Diemshitz and Jacobs.

I'm not disputing the words Koz used, I was pointing out the direction Koz went, that was all.

"....I went to look for a policeman at the direction of Diemshitz or some members of the club. I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial road, and there along with Eagle I found two officers."

I'm not sure what your objection was, we are both posting the same sentence.
We don't have anything from this "Jacobs" to show he took part in any chase that night.
Sure, Eagle said he saw "Jacobs" set off in the direction of Fairclough, but what happened then?
Did he change his mind, did he go up Batty, or up Christian, or down Brunswick?
It's all speculation, if he was even involved at all.

Jacobs doesn't matter at all. We are trying to deduce what happened, and that doesn't matter much either, to anyone but us it would seem. It's a case of the irresistible force and the immovable object. You can determine whose who. We both see things differently and are at a loss to see the merit of the opposing opinion. However, I do place sufficient value upon your opinions to concede that you could be right and I could be wrong (I remember being wrong once before).

Well yes, it is mutual, it's just there is a difference between what one of us thinks may happened in the absence of any statement from "Jacobs", as opposed to what Koz claimed happened and we both know he was present.

[GBinOz]

Blue italics 0riginally posted by GBinOz View Post. Green italics reply by George to Jon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there were about 70 people in the yard when the police declared a crime scene. Only a portion of them were interviewed, and I agree that it is a shame that Jacobs wasn't one of them.

Hi George.
That number seems a bit high, I remember 20 or 30?
You might be right. Thirty rings a bell.

From my perspective Diemshitz sends Koze out first, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. You will note that Koze never said that he was shouting out for police, but Diemshitz used the "we" again in this regard. Koze turns off Fairclough.
I must have missed that, where do we read Koz turned off Fairclough before he got to Grove?
He does say he went (up) to Commercial Rd. , but that was on the way back, or at least after he gave up looking at Grove St. which amounts to the same thing.
I was restating my hypothesis, but Koze went up to Commercial Road from either Fairclough or the Yard in Berner. Is there evidence for which of these alternatives? Nothing that I consider compelling, at this stage.

Spooner saw two Jews, and admits to returning with "them".
I thought Diemshitz only mentioned Spooner. Can you give me that reference please?
The People, 7 Oct.
(Spooner)....when two Jews came running along. They hallaoed out "Murder!" "Police!" They ran as far as Grove street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They said, "There has been a woman murdered in Berner street." I went with them to the yard adjoining No. 40.
Thanks Jon. I hadn't seen that quote before. So whoever was with Diemshitz and Spooner returned to the yard, so the likelihood is that it was Harris that was seen by Brown alerting Collins. If it was Kozetaht was one of "them", he left from the yard to go to Commercial Road. If it was Jacobs, then Koze probably met Eagle at the Berner/Commercial intersection as Lamb said he saw them when he was between Berner and Christian. I am taking Lamb's word over that of Eagle who, from memory, said Lamb was between Christian and Grove, or at Grove.

And, Diemshutz admits to bringing Spooner back with him.
Agreed. But he doesn't say Koze came back with him.

[/COLOR][/I]
Neither does he say Jacobs came back with him

Are we still on that same, "I" does not mean "alone" argument?
It seems you think because Diemshutz doesn't mention Koz. that he couldn't be there?
Where does that come from?


I fully realize you could reply in the same vein about Jacobs, that just because Diemshutz doesn't mention him, I can't argue he wasn't there - it works both ways, right? Right!
Except, at least I do have Koz. saying he did set off "I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one.",
You don't have that, why, because he wasn't there..
Right? Wrong!
Koze actually said "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one". Koze left before Diemshitz and Jacobs.

Your position totally lacks anything from Jacobs to confirm he even exists.
I can't understand how you fail to see that.
Why does 'Jacobs" matter so much?

Jacobs doesn't matter at all. We are trying to deduce what happened, and that doesn't matter much either, to anyone but us it would seem. It's a case of the irresistible force and the immovable object. You can determine whose who. We both see things differently and are at a loss to see the merit of the opposing opinion. However, I do place sufficient value upon your opinions to concede that you could be right and I could be wrong (I remember being wrong once before).

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there were about 70 people in the yard when the police declared a crime scene. Only a portion of them were interviewed, and I agree that it is a shame that Jacobs wasn't one of them.

Hi George.
That number seems a bit high, I remember 20 or 30?

From my perspective Diemshitz sends Koze out first, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. You will note that Koze never said that he was shouting out for police, but Diemshitz used the "we" again in this regard. Koze turns off Fairclough

I must have missed that, where do we read Koz turned off Fairclough before he got to Grove?
He does say he went (up) to Commercial Rd. , but that was on the way back, or at least after he gave up looking at Grove St. which amounts to the same thing.

...and Diemshitz and Jacobs continue to Grove shouting for police.

Diemshutz and someone, yes.

They must have passed Spooner on their way to Grove, but he stops to ask them what is happening on their return trip.

Spooner saw two Jews, and admits to returning with "them".
I thought Diemshitz only mentioned Spooner. Can you give me that reference please?

The People, 7 Oct.
(Spooner)....when two Jews came running along. They hallaoed out "Murder!" "Police!" They ran as far as Grove street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They said, "There has been a woman murdered in Berner street." I went with them to the yard adjoining No. 40.

And, Diemshutz admits to bringing Spooner back with him.
Agreed. But he doesn't say Koze came back with him.

Neither does he say Jacobs came back with him

Are we still on that same, "I" does not mean "alone" argument?
It seems you think because Diemshutz doesn't mention Koz. that he couldn't be there?
Where does that come from?


I fully realize you could reply in the same vein about Jacobs, that just because Diemshutz doesn't mention him, I can't argue he wasn't there - it works both ways, right?
Except, at least I do have Koz. saying he did set off "I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one.",
You don't have that, why, because he wasn't there..
Right?

Your position totally lacks anything from Jacobs to confirm he even exists.
I can't understand how you fail to see that.
Why does 'Jacobs" matter so much?

[GBinOz]

Agreed, all accounts say the same thing - in the direction of Grove.

But neither does Jacobs, except it is worse than that, no-one ever spoke to this Jacobs to get his side of the story.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there were about 70 people in the yard when the police declared a crime scene. Only a portion of them were interviewed, and I agree that it is a shame that Jacobs wasn't one of them.
So, from your perspective both Koz & "Jacobs" run towards Grove, but neither of them get there.
Right? Wrong!
From my perspective Diemshitz sends Koze out first, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. You will note that Koze never said that he was shouting out for police, but Diemshitz used the "we" again in this regard. Koze turns off Fairclough and Diemshitz and Jacobs continue to Grove shouting for police. They must have passed Spooner on their way to Grove, but he stops to ask them what is happening on their return trip.
Spooner saw two Jews, and admits to returning with "them".
I thought Diemshitz only mentioned Spooner. Can you give me that reference please?
And, Diemshutz admits to bringing Spooner back with him.
Agreed. But he doesn't say Koze came back with him.

Where do you get "Jacobs was" from?
From my little box of opinions.

The rethinking continues?

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Koze says he went in a direction towards Grove,..

Agreed, all accounts say the same thing - in the direction of Grove.

...not that he went to Grove as he would have had to have done had he been with Diemshitz. Why does Koze not mention Spooner or Harris? Because he wasn't there when Diemshitz encountered them.

But neither does Jacobs, except it is worse than that, no-one ever spoke to this Jacobs to get his side of the story.
So, from your perspective both Koz & "Jacobs" run towards Grove, but neither of them get there.
Right?
Spooner saw two Jews, and admits to returning with "them".
And, Diemshutz admits to bringing Spooner back with him.

The evidence tells us that Koze started out in the same direction as Diemshitz but wasn't with him when Diemshitz reached Grove St. But Jacobs was.

Where do you get "Jacobs was" from?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Which do we believe?
I don't think we can believe any of them, one may be correct, but which one, and how do we know?
Lave must have given a statement to police, but the coroner did not choose him for the inquest, so perhaps it was the last quote that is the true one?

He seems to have been outside at around 12:40, so around the time that Eagle returns. For anyone wanting to believe in Schwartz and the presence of the young couple on the corner, Eagle and Lave make good candidates for the first and second man.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Of course I am not saying that different testimony was given to, or heard by, the journalists. What I am saying is that it was reported differently. We can see this variation in the reports of testimony regarding the time Lamb was informed, and the time Johnson was contacted by the PC at the surgery. How can that have been when they were listening to the same testimony? Are you seriously suggesting that journalists were consistent in their reporting of testimony given at inquests? I would suggest that Eagle testified that he saw Diemshitz and Jacobs go for the police, and the journalists reported that statement differently, or indeed, not at all.

Yes George, journalists recorded differently worded accounts. Thats a whole separate issue.

What you propose requires three men leaving the yard to run along Fairclough, yet all accounts only speak to two men running towards Grove.
There's no need to create a third man, and this erroneous Jacobs appears nowhere else in the drama.
There are plenty of typographical errors to hi-lite if it comes to debating the subject, it's not like typo's are rare, so we can't go down that path.

We have Diemshutz saying 'he' went, we also have Kozebrodski saying 'he' went, but we also have Diemshutz, in talking about being with his friend Koz. that "we" went along Fairclough.
No-one else says they went in that direction, and no-one else says a third person went that way either. The mention of "Jacobs" is an anomaly.

Just to focus on this particular issue, the coroner asks Eagle a question, to which he replies - according to the Telegraph:
"I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street."

Yet in the Times we read:
"When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street",

We already have the words of Kozebrodski, that he ran towards Grove St., which is along Fairclough.
"I went to look for a policeman at the direction of Diemshitz or some members of the club. I went in the direction of Grove street, and could not find one."

So, either this Jacobs is another name for Isaac Kozebrodski, or another name, or misprint for Louis Diemshutz, or a third man running along Fairclough.

Yet, another witness, Spooner, standing on Fairclough at the corner of Christian St. only saw two men, two Jews, running towards him and shouting for a policeman. They continued on to Grove St. at which point they turned back.

Your scenario requires that in the testimony, Diemshitz was a misprinted as Jacobs, and, "went" was misprinted as "sent". I am leaving the sworn testimony in tact and allowing for journalistic licence. My view at this stage is that the timings and descriptions by Lamb and Spooner, don't quite work out without the fourth man in the search parties, but, as Karsten suggests, time for rethinking.

Cheers, George

The "sent" could have been a typo for "went", but as club steward we must allow that he will be giving directions to members to go run for a constable. So he may have been telling different people, including Kozebrodski to go for help, but as we read Diemshutz says Koz. waited for his friend head out.

Rethinking is always good, and I do plenty of it myself. This is why debating these minor issues can only benefit an argument.
I've been going back over and over these points we keep raising, and I remember it being suggested Koz. may have run up Batty instead of continuing to Grove. This I take as an attempt to push Koz. out and replace him with "Jacobs", in order to keep Spooner's statement intact, about the two Jews coming towards him.

It's just that Batty is only 100 ft from Christian St., so from Spooner, how could he fail to notice three men coming up the street from Berner shouting at the top of their voice? PC Lamb said he could have seen anyone running away from 40 Berner from his beat in Commercial Rd., that's about 300 ft, so lighting cannot have been a problem.
Even if you want Koz. to leave the trio by running up Batty, Spooner was near enough to have seen & especially heard, the three men coming from Berner St.
Rethink?