The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

After a lot of rethinking, I'd like to have a stab at a scenario starting after this point:

A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match, while the latter lifted the body up.

My hypothesis: From there, Diemshitz went into the street and started hollering for police, while Koze ducked into the printer's office,

Ok, but you realize that does contradict what both witnesses say.

Diemshutz: "A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable."

Kozebrodski: "Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard, as he saw there was something unusual had taken place there. So I came out with him, and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door. The blood in the gutter extended to between six and seven yards. I immediately went for a policeman,"

Neither witness say they did anything else, both immediately went for a policeman.

...where he was known as Gilyarovsky (Koze doesn't mention this when interviewed because he doesn't think it is relevant to the main chase). He returns to the body just as Eagle arrives from upstairs and the latter lights a match. At this stage Eagle hears Diemshitz hollering in the street, and Koze hears his name called from the street. They go to the gateway, Eagle see Diemshitz with Jacobs, and Koze is unsure whether he was called by Diemshitz or "some other member" (Jacobs). Diemshitz, Koze and Jacobs head off towards Grove St,...

Jacobs could have followed Diemshutz, but they were not together as several minutes lay between Diemshutz leaving and Jacobs heading out after him.

...while Eagle heads for Commercial Rd. As Koze starts along Fairclough he realises that they would have more success if they split up, so he turns into Batty St and heads up to Commercial Rd. Spooner hears shouting but sees only two men emerge from the darkness. Diemshitz uses the term "all the men who were with me" because he is leading the search and doesn't realise that Koze is no longer with them until they turn around at Grove. Lamb is just starting his beat back westward from Grove when he hears shouting from the west. Eagle and Koze each hear the other shouting and join up to continue east on Commercial to meet Lamb as he reaches a spot between Batty and Christian.

The above is possible, we have no account of which direction Koz. takes from Fairclough to Commercial Rd.

...As an alternative to turning into Batty St, Koze may have decided to about face and turn back to the yard, where Eagle is standing in a state of shock, and the two proceed from there to Commercial Rd. I consider it less likely that Koze decided to back track to reach Commercial Rd when it was accessible via Batty St.

You might be assuming Koz. had planned all along to go to Commercial Rd., but how can that be?
The reason, I believe, that Koz. decided to go up to Comm. Rd. is because he saw there were still no policeman at the yard, which means he must have returned to the yard with Diem. & Spooner.
Eagle left several minutes after Diemshutz, so was not ahead by much of Koz. when he came back up Comm. Rd.

Of course there may have been other search parties comprised of men who were not interviewed and were not called to the inquest, so all we have in that regard is the Illustrated Police Gazette saying "and at the same time other members of the club, who had by this time found their way into the court, went off with the same object in different directions".

I agree, we only know of a few who went for police.

There it is. Please have a critical look to see if I've got all the ducks in a row, or contradicted any vital statements, and where improvements may be made .

Cheers, George

Good job overall George, there's only a couple of points I wouldn't have proposed, for reasons given.

[S.Brett]

The press accounts, as you know, have Diemshutz discover the body, but he doesn't know the woman is dead - so how could Gilyarovsky "immediately" run to the print office making that announcement? - he couldn't.
The Arbeter Fraint missed a bit out, and that is, that:

- Diemshutz runs into the club and says there's a woman outside that may be drunk, Kozebrodski his friend comes out with him, and others follow, possibly one of them was Gilyarovsky (aka Gilleman). Diemshutz brings a candle and they all see the blood.

- Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run off to find a policeman, neither of them go back into the club.

- Gilyarovsky goes back into the club and goes upstairs to announce the woman dead in the yard. Eagle, with others, follow Gilyarovsky out into the yard, where Eagle strikes a match and saw the blood.
Whether Gilyarovsky ran to the print office before he went back into the club, or after is not known.
All sources have Diemshutz & Kozebrodski leaving directly after they see the body.
Kozebrodski, is out on the streets & Gilyarovsky goes back in the club - they are two different people.



Other newspapers call him Gilleman (Times, 2nd Oct.) or Gildeman (Echo, 1st Oct.).

Sounds good!

[S.Brett]

Anyway, there is I believe a more down to earth explanation for the blood clots. The doctors were mystified by the presence of those clots, yet PC Lamb told the inquest he felt for a pulse, he held the hand, and touched her face. He was possible not aware he had transferred clotted blood to her hand.
At the inquest he said the blood nearest to her body was slightly congealed.

At night blood looks like oil, but you cannot tell by looking at it whether blood is wet or clotted, it is shiny but you have to touch it to know what state it is in. Although PC Lamb did not say he touched the blood, he could not have known it was congealed unless he pushed his fingers into it.
He does say he touched both the face and her wrist, feeling for a pulse. He doesn't say in what order he did this, but the fact he knew the blood was congealed, and he admits to touching both her face & hand makes PC Lamb the most likely candidate for causing the small blood clots on the wrist & back of her hand.

Yes Jon, I agree with the PC Lamb theory, itīs my first choice.

Everything else I wrote is just speculation.

Another explanation, similar to what Nathan Shine described, would be a knife stained with blood:

"he saw a man holding a large narrow bladed knife standing over a woman who was lying motionless on the ground"

A moment of shock for the killer, blood dripping onto the hand of Stride.

(If one believes in the Nathan Shine- story)

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Wait, are you saying that by the time this bit occurs ...

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match ...

... Gilyarovsky had already seen the body by candle/match light, while with someone else from the club? That would have been the initial realisation of a murder - a rather odd bit to leave out of the highlights, don't you think?

The press accounts, as you know, have Diemshutz discover the body, but he doesn't know the woman is dead - so how could Gilyarovsky "immediately" run to the print office making that announcement? - he couldn't.
The Arbeter Fraint missed a bit out, and that is, that:

- Diemshutz runs into the club and says there's a woman outside that may be drunk, Kozebrodski his friend comes out with him, and others follow, possibly one of them was Gilyarovsky (aka Gilleman). Diemshutz brings a candle and they all see the blood.

- Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run off to find a policeman, neither of them go back into the club.

- Gilyarovsky goes back into the club and goes upstairs to announce the woman dead in the yard. Eagle, with others, follow Gilyarovsky out into the yard, where Eagle strikes a match and saw the blood.
Whether Gilyarovsky ran to the print office before he went back into the club, or after is not known.
All sources have Diemshutz & Kozebrodski leaving directly after they see the body.
Kozebrodski, is out on the streets & Gilyarovsky goes back in the club - they are two different people.

Who was Gilyarovsky, according to your current understanding?

Other newspapers call him Gilleman (Times, 2nd Oct.) or Gildeman (Echo, 1st Oct.).

[Wickerman]

Dr. Phillips:

"Have you formed any opinion as to the manner in which the deceased's right hand became stained with blood?

It is a mystery. There were small oblong clots on the back of the hand. I may say that I am taking it as a fact that after death the hand always remained in the position in which I found it - across the body".

"small oblong clots" that came from a wart or a boil on one of his hands?

I was having trouble connecting the two situations in your post, but the mention those oblong blood clots drew my attention.

You might not believe this but, there were a few members here who believed those blood clots are what Diemshutz and Kozebrodski identified as grapes.
You will recall the doctors never did see any grapes or evidence of grapes that were suggested to be in her right hand.
So it was suggested those blood clots, which I might add were on the back of her hand, are what the two witnesses thought were grapes. This, unbelievable explanation is an aside from the fact the blood clots were on the back of her hand. A dead body balancing grapes on the back of her hand?

Anyway, there is I believe a more down to earth explanation for the blood clots. The doctors were mystified by the presence of those clots, yet PC Lamb told the inquest he felt for a pulse, he held the hand, and touched her face. He was possible not aware he had transferred clotted blood to her hand.
At the inquest he said the blood nearest to her body was slightly congealed.

At night blood looks like oil, but you cannot tell by looking at it whether blood is wet or clotted, it is shiny but you have to touch it to know what state it is in. Although PC Lamb did not say he touched the blood, he could not have known it was congealed unless he pushed his fingers into it.
He does say he touched both the face and her wrist, feeling for a pulse. He doesn't say in what order he did this, but the fact he knew the blood was congealed, and he admits to touching both her face & hand makes PC Lamb the most likely candidate for causing the small blood clots on the wrist & back of her hand.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

After a lot of rethinking, I'd like to have a stab at a scenario starting after this point:

A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match, while the latter lifted the body up.

My hypothesis: From there, Diemshitz went into the street and started hollering for police, while Koze ducked into the printer's office, where he was known as Gilyarovsky (Koze doesn't mention this when interviewed because he doesn't think it is relevant to the main chase).....

There it is. Please have a critical look to see if I've got all the ducks in a row, or contradicted any vital statements, and where improvements may be made .

Hi George, good job, I looked briefly last night, but had to shut down. I'll have a longer look today, but I notice one detail that, if we were working together on a project I would caution against.
If you intend to make two separately named people into the same person, you must look for a connection. Especially if you are making them central to your theory it is necessary to identify something in common beteeen the two that can reasonably be argued they are the same person, just known by different people under a different name. not an unknown circumstance in this period.

When I read that someone suggested Kozebrodski might be Gilyarovsky, I looked through all the statements that mention each one to see if there was some detail that they both did at the same time. To make them the same person you need more than a name ending in "ski/sky", that ending was too common to be a point of comparison.
Anyway, I'll get back later

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten,

Great finds, particularly the Illustrated Police News, which supports the theory that the search parties comprised more than three people.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

...even more food for thought...

The Star, 1 OCTOBER, 1888

"From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat".

I have often wondered if the "two different sources" refer to the police and the IWMEC. Church Lane - located between Commercial Road and Whitechapel High Street/ Road.

PC Lamb "was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street" when "two men came running towards" him.

Is it possible that one of the "several members" went, via Commercial Road, through Church Lane and "saw a man sitting on a door-step"?

"Wiping his hands" could also mean that the man, if the murderer, had injured his hand when attacking Stride. The reason why he immediately left the crime scene?

Dr. Phillips:

"Have you formed any opinion as to the manner in which the deceased's right hand became stained with blood?

It is a mystery. There were small oblong clots on the back of the hand. I may say that I am taking it as a fact that after death the hand always remained in the position in which I found it - across the body".

"small oblong clots" that came from a wart or a boil on one of his hands?

Apart from time and description, was the man seen in Church Lane one of the men Schwartz had seen?

If so, not only Schwartz, also the Church-Lane witness did not appear at the (official) inquest.

Also possible: Is the Church Lane suspect "the (third) man from the darkness"?

Karsten.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No prob!

Isaac Kozebrodsky "Isaacs" (maybe "Jacob" Gilyarovsky "Jacobs"?)
Morris Eagle
Philip Krantz (Jacob Rombro) & Yaffa
(Simeon?) Fridenthal (Gildeman?)

Mrs. Diemschutz?

Louis Diemschutz:

"No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor"... "There were several members (Kozebrodsky, Eagle, Fridenthal?) in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard"

I think these six people did not belong to the "about twenty of the members remained in the club"... "created a choir and sang various songs" (AF, 5.10.1888)

Arbeter Fraint, 5 Oktober 1888:

"Everyone’s names and addresses were taken, and everyone was questioned as to whether they had seen anything unusual".

I guess the "singers" from at about 12 o’clock were not as important as the members with other activities than singing around the time of the murder.

How many of the "singers" went into the yard before the police arrived?

No idea!

Julius Minsky, a Polish Jew, and a member of the club, states that at the time when the alarm was raised, just after one o'clock, there were some 20 or 30 members in the club room upstairs.

Adding these names to some number of people in the front room ground floor, plus the at least 20 upstairs mentioned by Minsky, takes the total to over 28. There were also people living in the Dutfield's Yard tenements, but I'm uncertain how many of them might have come into the yard, and so ended up on Reid's list of 28. Joseph Lave said he was living at #40 at the time. Not sure where he and others like him would have slept.

Now if we add those who came in from the street, the total could easily be hitting 40 or more.

IWEC members

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As you suggested initially, part of the story is missing.
Gilyarovsky had to come out of the club and been one of them who stood over thebody while matches or a candle was lit - all this has been missed out.
The paper is only giving the hi-lites.

Wait, are you saying that by the time this bit occurs ...

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match ...

... Gilyarovsky had already seen the body by candle/match light, while with someone else from the club? That would have been the initial realisation of a murder - a rather odd bit to leave out of the highlights, don't you think?

Who was Gilyarovsky, according to your current understanding?

[New Waterloo]

Coincidentally, the surname 'Jacobs' appears somewhere else.

When Eddowes was discharged from the police station, she gave her address as 6 Fashion Street.


I've always wondered why.


Well in 1891 there were 2 families living at 6 Fashion Street..one of which was the 'Silverman' family and the other was the 'JACOBS' family.


Joseph Jacobs was a Jewish Tailor (aged 42 in 1891)

It would be within reason to suggest the Jacobs family may have lived there in 1888 also.


RD

Well spotted RD and quite interesting about Eddowes giving address of 6 Fashion Street.

Well very interesting as during Strides inquest the Lodging House Deputy Elizabeth Tanner that whilst in conversation with Stride she said that she was living with a man on Fashion Street. So here we have two murders on the same day where both people have stated shortly before they are murdered that they are living on Fashion Street!!

Maybe yet another coincidence. Not sure how far Fashion Street is from Berners Street? Or whether their any persons of interest living on Fashion Street at the time.

NW

[Wickerman]

Ah, but can water run uphill?

I'm fairly sure there was a slight gradient from the gate down to the club door; hence why the blood naturally ran toward the door. Otherwise, the blood would have run into the street.

I could be wrong of course.


RD

You're right of course, there was a grate in the yard and drain channels running from the gate to the drain. These are not going to be designed or installed to run uphill.
From the gate to the drain, exact location not specified?, must be a down grade.
What you have identified is possibly an error with the press quote, there cannot be any blood between the body and the gate. Other observations have identified the pooling of blood not far from the side door, which makes better sense.

[GBinOz]

Ok, George, I got it.

This is from Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.
Diemshutz - "....but went off at once for the police. We passed several streets without meeting a policeman, and we returned without one. All the men who were with me halloaed as loud as they could for the police, but no one came. When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as he lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat."

He's not talking about on the way back, is he?
It reads to me like the next sentence "When I returned..." is the start of the account of his return journey. That's how it reads to me as well.
We've just jumped hoops & hurdles to try establish two men left the yard (Diem. & Koz.), and now it could be that more left the yard than we thought.
We have no contention how many past Spooner, he say two Jews hollering, so the others must have left they yard and gone down different streets? Agreed.
So, there's room now for more than two leaving the yard before, after, or with Louis Deimshutz.

Hi Jon,

After a lot of rethinking, I'd like to have a stab at a scenario starting after this point:

A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match, while the latter lifted the body up.

My hypothesis: From there, Diemshitz went into the street and started hollering for police, while Koze ducked into the printer's office, where he was known as Gilyarovsky (Koze doesn't mention this when interviewed because he doesn't think it is relevant to the main chase). He returns to the body just as Eagle arrives from upstairs and the latter lights a match. At this stage Eagle hears Diemshitz hollering in the street, and Koze hears his name called from the street. They go to the gateway, Eagle see Diemshitz with Jacobs, and Koze is unsure whether he was called by Diemshitz or "some other member" (Jacobs). Diemshitz, Koze and Jacobs head off towards Grove St, while Eagle heads for Commercial Rd. As Koze starts along Fairclough he realises that they would have more success if they split up, so he turns into Batty St and heads up to Commercial Rd. Spooner hears shouting but sees only two men emerge from the darkness. Diemshitz uses the term "all the men who were with me" because he is leading the search and doesn't realise that Koze is no longer with them until they turn around at Grove. Lamb is just starting his beat back westward from Grove when he hears shouting from the west. Eagle and Koze each hear the other shouting and join up to continue east on Commercial to meet Lamb as he reaches a spot between Batty and Christian.

As an alternative to turning into Batty St, Koze may have decided to about face and turn back to the yard, where Eagle is standing in a state of shock, and the two proceed from there to Commercial Rd. I consider it less likely that Koze decided to back track to reach Commercial Rd when it was accessible via Batty St. Of course there may have been other search parties comprised of men who were not interviewed and were not called to the inquest, so all we have in that regard is the Illustrated Police Gazette saying "and at the same time other members of the club, who had by this time found their way into the court, went off with the same object in different directions".

There it is. Please have a critical look to see if I've got all the ducks in a row, or contradicted any vital statements, and where improvements may be made .

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi NBFN!

Re: "No idea"

"the (concert) members flocked out"

Evening News, 1 October 1888 and other papers

"The concert going on in the club was immediately stopped, and the members flocked out to see whether another "Whitechapel horror" had been committed. Their investigation too plainly discovered the fact, and several members started off to communicate with the police. It was nearly two o'clock yesterday morning before a constable was found, and he, along with some comrades who were early at the spot, conveyed the body to the mortuary connected with the workhouse of St. George's-in-the-East".

Irish Times, Dublin, 1st October 1888

"Between twenty and thirty remained behind, and the usual concert which followed was not concluded with the intelligence was brought in by the steward of the club that a woman had been done to death within a few yards of them, and within earshot of their songs. The people residing in the cottages on the other side of the court wre all indoors and most of them in bed by midnight. Several of these persons remember lying awake and listening to the singing, and the also remember the concert coming to an abrupt termination, but during the whole of the time from retiring to rest until the body was discovered no one heard anything in the nature of a scream or woman's cry of distress".

Illustrated Police News
6 October, 1888

"... Diemshitz entered the club by the side-door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert-room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match, while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood in the gutter terminating in a hideous pool near the club door showed but too plainly what had happened. Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman, and at the same time other members of the club, who had by this time found their way into the court, went off with the same object in different directions. The search was for some time fruitless..."

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Great finds, particularly the Illustrated Police News, which supports the theory that the search parties comprised more than three people.

Cheers, George

[S.Brett]

Hi NBFN!

Re: "No idea"

"the (concert) members flocked out"

Evening News, 1 October 1888 and other papers

"The concert going on in the club was immediately stopped, and the members flocked out to see whether another "Whitechapel horror" had been committed. Their investigation too plainly discovered the fact, and several members started off to communicate with the police. It was nearly two o'clock yesterday morning before a constable was found, and he, along with some comrades who were early at the spot, conveyed the body to the mortuary connected with the workhouse of St. George's-in-the-East".

Irish Times, Dublin, 1st October 1888

"Between twenty and thirty remained behind, and the usual concert which followed was not concluded with the intelligence was brought in by the steward of the club that a woman had been done to death within a few yards of them, and within earshot of their songs. The people residing in the cottages on the other side of the court wre all indoors and most of them in bed by midnight. Several of these persons remember lying awake and listening to the singing, and the also remember the concert coming to an abrupt termination, but during the whole of the time from retiring to rest until the body was discovered no one heard anything in the nature of a scream or woman's cry of distress".

Illustrated Police News
6 October, 1888

"... Diemshitz entered the club by the side-door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert-room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match, while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood in the gutter terminating in a hideous pool near the club door showed but too plainly what had happened. Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman, and at the same time other members of the club, who had by this time found their way into the court, went off with the same object in different directions. The search was for some time fruitless..."

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Yesterday I came across a quote by Diemshutz where he says "the men that were with me", darn, I've misplaced the quote now.
When I saw it I thought he was talking about after they picked up Spooner - because there would be three of them.
So, I passed over it, but now as I think, we actually don't know how many left the yard with Diem. we only have Spooner saying two came towards him.
I wonder if three could have left the yard, except one took a different street?

Ok, George, I got it.

This is from Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.
Diemshutz - "....but went off at once for the police. We passed several streets without meeting a policeman, and we returned without one. All the men who were with me halloaed as loud as they could for the police, but no one came. When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as he lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat."

He's not talking about on the way back, is he?
It reads to me like the next sentence "When I returned..." is the start of the account of his return journey.
We've just jumped hoops & hurdles to try establish two men left the yard (Diem. & Koz.), and now it could be that more left the yard than we thought.
We have no contention how many past Spooner, he say two Jews hollering, so the others must have left they yard and gone down different streets?
So, there's room now for more than two leaving the yard before, after, or with Louis Deimshutz.