The Stride Murder

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Has anyone ever questioned why nobody seems to have seen PC Smith in Berner Street?

Funny that


RD

The young couple saw him pass by, just after they arrived at their rendezvous point.
The couple who had previously walked up and down Berner St, saw him on a previous round, as did Fanny, who actually saw him twice and heard him pass three other times.
Eagle caught a glimpse of him, as he was entering the street and Smith was leaving it.
Lave saw him too, just before he re-entered the club.
Packer noticed him pass once or twice, while at his customer window.
On the other hand, Herschburg and Letchford both missed him.

Why do you ask, ... ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Weren't there other ways of exiting the Socialist Club besides through the yard/gates?

The front door. Although I don't think that's what you're getting at.

I want to know if those quotes make sense together, given a subtle change of interpretation. However, the interpretation requires a decent theory plus evidence.

Essentially, the Schwartz incident might make sense had it occurred when the street was noisier and known witnesses were absent. Then it might be able to blend in, largely unnoticed. For example, one could get away with exclaiming 'Lipski' outside the club, if there are 100 people inside, singing.

Also, there is a way of looking at the transit of Berner St by Schwartz and Goldstein, so that the two identities merge into one.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Do you mean that it explains why she didn't see Smith because she said she was at the door nearly the whole time, meaning not quite the whole time, so Smith could have passed during that small part of the time when she wasn't at the door? If so, I would say that's possible but not probable.

I think my last few posts have been ambiguous due to being rushed a bit. Sorry about that.

I was referring to the police footsteps / 10-minute vigil report, not the half-hour report. You said ...

She would have seen PC Smith and perhaps others if she had been standing at her door for 30 minutes, which is why I believe the version of the story that says that she was standing at her door for 10 minutes.

My point was just that the 10-minute report explains why she didn't see Smith. That is, assuming the accuracy of that report.

I guess I see Mortimer's situation different than that of most witnesses in that she's just standing there, doing nothing but watching, while others are going somewhere, more likely to have things on their mind, and less likely to notice everything. Also, do we have a statement from Eagle or Lave saying, "I didn't see anyone except..."? That's a good point though.

That's a good point too.

When I was first on this forum, I noticed people would occasionally say things like "Fanny didn't see James Brown". What? How could we know if Fanny had caught a glimpse of Brown going to and/or returning from the chandler's shop? It's as though there was an assumption, she was standing there writing the comings and goings she witnessed, in a journal, which she then handed over to the associated press for transcription and publication in the papers. No, it was just another night ... until it wasn't.

I find it conceivable that Fanny witnessed the return of Eagle, even though she was quoted as saying "... I did not observe any one enter the gates". I think she's referring to the period after hearing the policeman's footsteps. That could be wrong, of course, but the point is that the individuals whose image landed on Fanny's retinas in the period leading up to the discovery, are probably a superset of the people she mentioned to the press.

[The Rookie Detective]

Do you mean that it explains why she didn't see Smith because she said she was at the door nearly the whole time, meaning not quite the whole time, so Smith could have passed during that small part of the time when she wasn't at the door? If so, I would say that's possible but not probable.

I guess I see Mortimer's situation different than that of most witnesses in that she's just standing there, doing nothing but watching, while others are going somewhere, more likely to have things on their mind, and less likely to notice everything. Also, do we have a statement from Eagle or Lave saying, "I didn't see anyone except..."? That's a good point though.

Has anyone ever questioned why nobody seems to have seen PC Smith in Berner Street?

Funny that


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hello Jon, I am not really sure about the significance but I suppose I am surprised that there is a route to and from Dutfields yard without going through the club door at the front of the gates. However I do appreciate that any route in or out would require going through the houses of number 42, 44 or the pub. and would require the occupants to be aware. Having said that it wouldn't be beyond belief that somebody in the pub could hide in the yard back yard after the pub closes. I have heard of this in modern times where people have hidden on pub premises to burgle them when the publican goes to bed. Has Pipeman somehow achieved this and exits the yard through the pub. No that would not work because Stride is still alive. Not sure what it means but is a route in and out, all be it possibly through peoples living rooms. Thanks for the map

Regards

Richard NW

Great post N.W.


Perhaps the significance is that Le Grand chose Packer to interrogate in order to create a story.

Why would he do that AFTER Packer had already told the police he saw nothing?

IF the killer used the yard of 44 to hide, then perhaps there was more of reason to "question" Packer to then conveniently describe a man buying grapes, who wasn't the ripper and didn't resemble the ripper.

Ulterior motives at play.

RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George.

I thought Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer were the same woman, their stories being quite similar, but you're right Mrs Artisan does appear to describe a man with a black bag going in the opposite direction to what we believe Goldstein did.
So we must question if the two women are the same woman, and/or the two men with bags, are the same man, and/or is/are he/they walking in the same or opposite directions.
Then there are potential errors by the journalist or editor to consider.
Too many questions

While I consider Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer to be the same woman, I don't think the "apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan" comment can be casually ignored.

The preamble to the interview is worth a thought ...

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

Did she know she was in conversation with a journalist? What impact might that have had on what she told the man?

Perhaps the man apparently not acquiring the woman's name is a clue, or did she want to remain anonymous?

As for the direction taken by black bag man, I wonder if Walter Dew really knew the truth of the matter?

[Lewis C]

Assuming all quotes are of Fanny.

I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Does she mean?...

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I would have seen him.

OR

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock that must have been the man I did see.

Weren't there other ways of exiting the Socialist Club besides through the yard/gates?

[Lewis C]

We seem to be narrowing down the possibilities!


Doesn't that version of the story explain why she didn't see Smith?

Had Fanny been at her doorstep prior to 12:45, who should she have seen and mentioned seeing, that she didn't? Eagle and Lave didn't mention seeing each other, or anyone else of note. Does that mean they could not have been on the street when they thought they were?

Do you mean that it explains why she didn't see Smith because she said she was at the door nearly the whole time, meaning not quite the whole time, so Smith could have passed during that small part of the time when she wasn't at the door? If so, I would say that's possible but not probable.

I guess I see Mortimer's situation different than that of most witnesses in that she's just standing there, doing nothing but watching, while others are going somewhere, more likely to have things on their mind, and less likely to notice everything. Also, do we have a statement from Eagle or Lave saying, "I didn't see anyone except..."? That's a good point though.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon, I am not really sure about the significance but I suppose I am surprised that there is a route to and from Dutfields yard without going through the club door at the front of the gates. However I do appreciate that any route in or out would require going through the houses of number 42, 44 or the pub. and would require the occupants to be aware. Having said that it wouldn't be beyond belief that somebody in the pub could hide in the yard back yard after the pub closes. I have heard of this in modern times where people have hidden on pub premises to burgle them when the publican goes to bed. Has Pipeman somehow achieved this and exits the yard through the pub. No that would not work because Stride is still alive. Not sure what it means but is a route in and out, all be it possibly through peoples living rooms. Thanks for the map

Regards

Richard NW

The pub on the corner, the Nelson, was supposed to close at midnight - that was the law for all pubs within a radius of, I think, Charing Cross, but anyway, it was closed by the time this murder happened.
Packer, he shut up shop (his window) just after 12:30, it's difficult to see how anyone could use those premises as an escape route.
There may have been an escape route going the other way, behind the club, I marked one potential route with a red line, that divides in two, on this map.

[New Waterloo]

I meant through front door of club or the gates

[New Waterloo]

Hello Jon, I am not really sure about the significance but I suppose I am surprised that there is a route to and from Dutfields yard without going through the club door at the front of the gates. However I do appreciate that any route in or out would require going through the houses of number 42, 44 or the pub. and would require the occupants to be aware. Having said that it wouldn't be beyond belief that somebody in the pub could hide in the yard back yard after the pub closes. I have heard of this in modern times where people have hidden on pub premises to burgle them when the publican goes to bed. Has Pipeman somehow achieved this and exits the yard through the pub. No that would not work because Stride is still alive. Not sure what it means but is a route in and out, all be it possibly through peoples living rooms. Thanks for the map

Regards

Richard NW

[Wickerman]

Hi N.W.

I'm not sure what you think you have wrong.
The pic. below shows, in the bottom right corner, the club was No.40, the yard was beside it, then across the yard (southward) is No.42, Packer lives next door at No.44, the Nelson public house is No.46 on the corner.
You see significance of access from Packer's back yard to Dutfields Yard?

[New Waterloo]

I have been looking at maps of Berner Street. Well as best I can. I didnt realize that Mathew Packer only lived one house down from the club. He and his wife were living at No 44 Berner Street. (correct me if I am wrong, I am sure you will). Well his house appears to have a back yard with direct access to Dutfields Yard!! There may be a wall or fence but is seems to be there.

Schwartz describes pipeman coming out of the pub. But Packers front door is very close to a door to the pub. At night stressed by what is going on is he sure that Pipeman emerges from the pub and not out of Packers front door. Is it Packer who comes out onto the street. in any case he was very close to the action.

Anyway regardless of theories I think it looks like a yard at the rear of his house with access to Dutfields yard. Any comments please.

I've probably got it all wrong

NW

[Wickerman]

I know that you don't agree, but I am still of the opinion that two women, Mortimer and Mrs Artisan, saw Goldstein in Berner St at different ties headed in opposite directions.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

I thought Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer were the same woman, their stories being quite similar, but you're right Mrs Artisan does appear to describe a man with a black bag going in the opposite direction to what we believe Goldstein did.
So we must question if the two women are the same woman, and/or the two men with bags, are the same man, and/or is/are he/they walking in the same or opposite directions.
Then there are potential errors by the journalist or editor to consider.
Too many questions

[Wickerman]

The reason i ask if we know what number Berner street Schwarz lived according to the press he was moving from is that it knocks the idea out of the window that he made a mistake with what street he was in!!

I understood where you were going, but there is no Berner St. address, only the Ellen St. one. And, we don't know if Ellen St. was his new address or his old one.
It is reasonable to suppose he would use Berner St. as his best route to get to 22 Ellen St., but as he couldn't read English anyway, and it being dark there is no certainty he knew he was in Berner St., he obviously thought he was, but that doesn't mean he really was.