The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

I absolutely agree that if Mortimer was only at her door for 10 minutes, then it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't have seen Smith. In fact, the idea of her going to her door after Smith passed seems to be what would fit the evidence best.

That indeed seems to be the case, the mention of "10 minutes" came after she heard that 'heavy tramp', which came just before 12:45.
So the "10 minutes" appears to have been 12:45 - 12:55, that no-one entered or exited the yard.
Mortimer goes back in the house about 12:55.

[Lewis C]

The front door. Although I don't think that's what you're getting at.

I want to know if those quotes make sense together, given a subtle change of interpretation. However, the interpretation requires a decent theory plus evidence.

Essentially, the Schwartz incident might make sense had it occurred when the street was noisier and known witnesses were absent. Then it might be able to blend in, largely unnoticed. For example, one could get away with exclaiming 'Lipski' outside the club, if there are 100 people inside, singing.

Also, there is a way of looking at the transit of Berner St by Schwartz and Goldstein, so that the two identities merge into one.

You may have understood what I was getting at, but to clarify, here was your post:

Assuming all quotes are of Fanny.

I did not observe anyone enter the gates.

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I must have seen him.

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Does she mean?...

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock I would have seen him.

OR

If a man had come out of the yard before 1 o'clock that must have been the man I did see.

My thought was that a possible way to reconcile the statements was that she didn't see anyone leave the Socialist Club, but there may have been a way for the man to have left the Socialist Club that she couldn't see, she was aware of that, and she was speculating that that might be what happened.

[Lewis C]

I think my last few posts have been ambiguous due to being rushed a bit. Sorry about that.

I was referring to the police footsteps / 10-minute vigil report, not the half-hour report. You said ...



My point was just that the 10-minute report explains why she didn't see Smith. That is, assuming the accuracy of that report.



That's a good point too.

When I was first on this forum, I noticed people would occasionally say things like "Fanny didn't see James Brown". What? How could we know if Fanny had caught a glimpse of Brown going to and/or returning from the chandler's shop? It's as though there was an assumption, she was standing there writing the comings and goings she witnessed, in a journal, which she then handed over to the associated press for transcription and publication in the papers. No, it was just another night ... until it wasn't.

I find it conceivable that Fanny witnessed the return of Eagle, even though she was quoted as saying "... I did not observe any one enter the gates". I think she's referring to the period after hearing the policeman's footsteps. That could be wrong, of course, but the point is that the individuals whose image landed on Fanny's retinas in the period leading up to the discovery, are probably a superset of the people she mentioned to the press.

I absolutely agree that if Mortimer was only at her door for 10 minutes, then it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't have seen Smith. In fact, the idea of her going to her door after Smith passed seems to be what would fit the evidence best.

Because Mortimer said the street was quiet and deserted and she only saw one person pass, I tend to believe her recollection, whereas if she had said that she saw 3 people pass, I would think she could easily have forgotten if there was a 4th. However, I'm open to the possibility that she might have seen someone else provided that it was something not very memorable.

[GBinOz]

Yes, the "third door from the yard" make the address No.36 (ie; 40-38-36), which was Mortimer's address.
This was accepted by many, plus her story being very similar sort of clinched it. However, the quote does not say the woman was stood in her own doorway. Mrs Artisan is introduced as speaking to neighbours in front of this door. Which means Mrs Artisan does not necessarily live there, she was just talking to a neighbour in front of Mortimer's door.
Possibly, Mrs Artisan knew Mortimer and was stood there chatting with her and another neighbour, if so we are nowhere near a solution.

That said, if we brush aside those minutae, we can accept Mrs Artisan is Mrs Mortimer, but then how to explain her describing Goldstein walking in the opposite direction?

Hi Jon,

It also needs to be explained why one was adamant that no-one came out of the yard and the other suggested that the person may have come from the club.

Oh..and no brushing please...it's a package deal.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I don't know if this will help in any way, this is my Mortimer Clock. It attempts to gather the more pertinent points spread across various newspapers.

Hi Jon,

I like your Mortimer clock. It becomes interesting if all the events are rotated in an anti-clockwise direction so that the "heavy tramp of feet" aligns with around the 12:33 mark, thereby aligning it with police time. It then seems to match my old police time timeline.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

I don't know if this will help in any way, this is my Mortimer Clock. It attempts to gather the more pertinent points spread across various newspapers.

[Wickerman]

...I find it conceivable that Fanny witnessed the return of Eagle, even though she was quoted as saying "... I did not observe any one enter the gates". I think she's referring to the period after hearing the policeman's footsteps. That could be wrong, of course, but the point is that the individuals whose image landed on Fanny's retinas in the period leading up to the discovery, are probably a superset of the people she mentioned to the press.

I see it just a little differently, Mortimer had been at the door at 12:30, but had returned inside after a few minutes. Her next comment is hearing the heavy tramp, it's just that I would place Eagle's return just minutes before the 'footsteps', she didn't see Eagle, or Lave, because she was back in the house.

[Wickerman]

While I consider Mrs Artisan & Mrs Mortimer to be the same woman, I don't think the "apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan" comment can be casually ignored.

The preamble to the interview is worth a thought ...

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

Did she know she was in conversation with a journalist? What impact might that have had on what she told the man?

Perhaps the man apparently not acquiring the woman's name is a clue, or did she want to remain anonymous?

As for the direction taken by black bag man, I wonder if Walter Dew really knew the truth of the matter?

Yes, the "third door from the yard" make the address No.36 (ie; 40-38-36), which was Mortimer's address.
This was accepted by many, plus her story being very similar sort of clinched it. However, the quote does not say the woman was stood in her own doorway. Mrs Artisan is introduced as speaking to neighbours in front of this door. Which means Mrs Artisan does not necessarily live there, she was just talking to a neighbour in front of Mortimer's door.
Possibly, Mrs Artisan knew Mortimer and was stood there chatting with her and another neighbour, if so we are nowhere near a solution.

That said, if we brush aside those minutae, we can accept Mrs Artisan is Mrs Mortimer, but then how to explain her describing Goldstein walking in the opposite direction?

[The Rookie Detective]

It's bizarre how with so many "witnesses" at the Stride murder...and yet in the lead-up, no one seems to have seen anyone else.

No one saw Eagle leave the club with his girlfriend
No one saw Eagle go back to the club, Eagle saw no one.
No one saw Lave and Lave saw no one
Schwartz saw Bs Man and Pipeman, yet no one saw Schwartz
No one else saw BS man
No one else saw Pipeman
PC Smith saw Stride with a man, yetno one saw PC Smith
Brown saw a couple, yet no one saw Brown
Marshall saw a couple, yet no one saw Marshall
Mortimer saw Goldstein, but no one else
Letchford saw no one at all
His sister also saw no one at all
Packer saw Stride with a man and yet no one saw Packer
Lots of random people running in all directions to look for a policeman
2 whistles were heard, but only one was blown by a policeman

Something doesn't quite add up here.

The only thing we know for sure is that Stride was murdered just inside that gateway


And that's it


How is that possible?


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

I'm sorry RD, that was written by my evil twin.

Ha ha! Brilliant!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That's the perfect answer and exactly what I was hoping to have confirmed.

I'm sorry RD, that was written by my evil twin.

[The Rookie Detective]

The young couple saw him pass by, just after they arrived at their rendezvous point.
The couple who had previously walked up and down Berner St, saw him on a previous round, as did Fanny, who actually saw him twice and heard him pass three other times.
Eagle caught a glimpse of him, as he was entering the street and Smith was leaving it.
Lave saw him too, just before he re-entered the club.
Packer noticed him pass once or twice, while at his customer window.
On the other hand, Herschburg and Letchford both missed him.

Why do you ask, ... ?

That's the perfect answer and exactly what I was hoping to have confirmed.


I must confess that I was aware that PC Smith had been seen, but I had no idea who or the amount of witnesses who had seen him.

I was trying to flush out and ascertain the idea that PC Smith would appear to be the one constant from which to build a more accurate time frame.

It's not just about who PC Smith had seen or hadn't seen, it's also relevant who had seen him.

Seeing that he did indeed have multiple witnesses who confirmed he was there, it is perhaps a way to see what fits and what doesn't in terms of the timings given by various other witnesses.


RD

[New Waterloo]

Tried to upload photo but help needed for clearer larger image please

Thank you

NW

[New Waterloo]

[New Waterloo]

Yes I tend to agree with you RD there possibly is something at play here. But I have to stop going off at a tangent.

If you look at photos of the corner pub. (I dont know how to reproduce the photo here perhaps somebody could help) I think Wickerman says it was the Nelson and closed at 12. There is a large corner door which we all know is not unusual for city pubs located on a corner plot and there is a side door opening onto Berners street.

The interesting bit is the side door is right next to Packers front door. They almost touch each other. Probably only separated by a brick or two.

Schwartz says (yes if we are to believe him) that Pipeman came out of the pub. Two things cross my mind. Was it the pub door he came out of or number 44?

If it was the pub well the chances are it was the landlord relaxing after closing (hence the pipe still in hand, hardly likely he is out to murder people walking around with his pipe in his hand) fed up with the goings on around the club and chasing schwartz off out of the area. having just come out of the pub he doesn't know who has done what exactly just a bit of shouting and pushing to him. (He may be a bit annoyed that the club can stay open with singing and dancing and he has to close earlier)

or

If he is exiting number 44, is it Packer himself or somebody at Packers address at the time. The photo shows how close the pub door is to Packers. Just some thoughts

NW