Chapman’s death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And finally for Dr Baron, even though there’s much more:

Jason Payne James say in his update of Simpson’s book. That’s Professor Keith Simpson Baron,yet another leading authority in The Field:


rigor is such a variable process that it can never provide an accurate assessment of the time of death. Extreme caution should be exercised in trying to assign a time of death based on the very subjective assessment of the degree and extent of rigor."

So we have the three methods pushed by posters all considered unreliable by experts.

Please explain to us how your expertise exceeds that of Payne-James and Simpson?

Game Long Over.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the mention

Nothing to do with theory, just available evidence.
Phillips could have been slightly out but as the digestion of potato completely and utterly backs him up I'm good with it .
It's you who has to look for 'exceptions' to the norm to make your beliefs fit , not I
..... and now I'll disappear to other threads again

At least Dr Gandalf Phillips got one thing right:

[Coroner] In your opinion did she enter the yard alive? - I am positive of it. I made a thorough search of the passage, and I saw no trace of blood, which must have been visible had she been taken into the yard.

[packers stem]

Digestion is unreliable. Evidence has been posted. It’s dead. End of.

I posted evidence showing just the opposite.
Its only dead in your mind and those who wish it to be for their own beliefs

[packers stem]

At least Dr Gandalf Phillips got one thing right:

[Coroner] In your opinion did she enter the yard alive? - I am positive of it. I made a thorough search of the passage, and I saw no trace of blood, which must have been visible had she been taken into the yard.

By that marvellous reasoning the pinchin street torso appeared by magic.
No track marks ,nobody heard anything ,no blood splashes all over the road.
Clearly a stork dropped it there.....

[John G]

Digestion is now being suggested as a reliable method for determining time of death. I'm afraid this isn't correct either:

" Using it as a guide to time of death, however, is theoretically unsound and presents many practical difficulties, although it may have limited applicability in some exceptional instances." (Stomach contents and the time of death. Rexamination of a persistent question, Jaffe FA. AM J Forensic Med Pathol. 1989.)

[FISHY1118]

2. The lawyer was basically being a Lawyer. So are you saying that Cadosch was unlikely to have been correct because he didn’t actually see the killer?

Ok your getting close , remember Herlock he couldn't say where the ''NO'' came from ,so right there you have doubt , do you not ? And yes he was sure the noise come from 29 Buttttttt thats not proof it came from Annie and her killer is it ? ,. More doubt. So i ask you, on that alone why should we except Codoschs version as true that it was Annie and her killer in the yard at 5.20 to 5.30 ? .Because the body was discovered at 6.00 ish i hear you say , well why could the body have been there earlier as Dr Phillips suggested, and Richardson simply didn't notice it when he just stood on the step and looked to his right to check the lock. And from 4.45 to 6.00 no one else was in the yard till Annie was discovered , this surely cant be beyond the realms of possibility, surely ?

[FISHY1118]

Cadosch is a creditable witness. As is Richardson. There is an obvious question mark over Long.

Find me 3 others that 100 percent agree with this statement in regards to Codosch and Richardson.

[Sam Flynn]

The presence of potato in the stomach can never be reliable in any case, as starch is not digested in the stomach, and potatoes are 99% starch.

[John G]

Kaul et al. 2017 also found wide variations. For instance, in respect of partial gastric emptying in females was found in 24.07% of cases up to 4 hours duration, 37.04% from 4-6 hours, and 54.55% 6-10 hours, 47.33% more than 10 hours.

Payne- James, 2003, gives a figure of 1-3 hours for gastric emptying in respect of a small meal. However, there are many physiological and psychological factors "which contribute to the great intra- and inter-individual variability of gastric emptying. Estimations, considering all circumstances, should only be made with great reservation." (ibid)

Thus, Payne-James refers to case where stomach contents were found post mortem 11 days after poly-trauma. See: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ptying&f=false

[Herlock Sholmes]

I posted evidence showing just the opposite.
Its only dead in your mind and those who wish it to be for their own beliefs

There is no opposite evidence! It’s science not a discussion on your favourite movie.

[packers stem]

There is no opposite evidence! It’s science not a discussion on your favourite movie.

Try reading the study I've posted previously and on the other almost identical thread.

[packers stem]

Digestion is now being suggested as a reliable method for determining time of death. I'm afraid this isn't correct either:

" Using it as a guide to time of death, however, is theoretically unsound and presents many practical difficulties, although it may have limited applicability in some exceptional instances." (Stomach contents and the time of death. Rexamination of a persistent question, Jaffe FA. AM J Forensic Med Pathol. 1989.)

That's not what's going on here John
There are two medical reasons combined together suggesting an early TOD
Many here are looking for them both to be out .
Phillip's is one ,digestion is the other .
When you combine the two the balance of probabilities suggests that an early TOD is likely to be correct rather than Phillip's being miles out in conjunction with some unusual slow down in digestion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=FISHY1118;n721313]

Ok your getting close , remember Herlock he couldn't say where the ''NO'' came from ,so right there you have doubt , do you not ? And yes he was sure the noise come from 29 Buttttttt thats not proof it came from Annie and her killer is it ? ,. More doubt. So i ask you, on that alone why should we except Codoschs version as true that it was Annie and her killer in the yard at 5.20 to 5.30 ? .Because the body was discovered at 6.00 ish i hear you say , well why could the body have been there earlier as Dr Phillips suggested, and Richardson simply didn't notice it when he just stood on the step and looked to his right to check the lock. And from 4.45 to 6.00 no one else was in the yard till Annie was discovered ,this surely cant be beyond the realms of possibility, surely ?[/QUOTE]

Youre being intentionally misleading Fishy.

he couldn't say where the ''NO'' came from

He said that it felt that it came from number 29 but he couldn’t be certain. He was simply being cautious and honest.

And yes he was sure the noise come from 29 Buttttttt thats not proof it came from Annie and her killer is it ?

And as ive said before we are talking about likelihood’s as none of us were there. Many things are theoretically possible but it doesn’t make them anything remotely likely. If there was a body already there (according to Gandalf Phillips) then it couldn’t have been a person. Anything else is unlikely in the extreme.

Richardson simply didn't notice it when he just stood on the step and looked to his right to check the lock

Because Richardson told us, at The Inquest under oath, that he didn’t just stand in the doorway but sat on the step around a foot from where the body later lay and he was absolutely adamant; 100% confident that there was no body there. This constant harping on about what he did or didn’t say to Chandler in the passageway is irrelevant. It wasn’t a recorded interview. Chandler could have misheard him. Richardson might simply have said something like “the body wasn’t there when I checked the cellar door” because it was what Chandler wanted to know and Chandler didn’t go into anymore detail. Even if Richardson deliberately withheld information this might simply have been because he didn’t want to mention being in possession of a knife.

Remember, Trevor made the very reasonable point that he might have felt compelled to speak to the police because someone might have seen him enter number 29 at 4.50. But.....he still didn't have to mention sitting on the step and using a knife. He could have said that he just stood on the top step. He could have said that he sat on the step and smoked his pipe.


its even been suggested that doubt can be cast because Cadosch didn’t see Chapman or her killer?? Despite the fact that they were behind Cadosch and he admitted that he didn’t look round/

Ill throw you a bone here Fishy. No definitely in anything.

98% certain.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's not what's going on here John
There are two medical reasons combined together suggesting an early TOD
Many here are looking for them both to be out .
Phillip's is one ,digestion is the other .
When you combine the two the balance of probabilities suggests that an early TOD is likely to be correct rather than Phillip's being miles out in conjunction with some unusual slow down in digestion.

How can you put weight behind three methods that have been stated as unreliable by experts?

Answer.....you cannot.

Witness testimony outweighs guesswork I’m afraid.

[John G]

Try reading the study I've posted previously and on the other almost identical thread.

What study is this? Presumably you've made the necessary adjustments to take into account the fact that Champan's was no ordinary death- as I've illustrated above poly-trauma can have a dramatic affect on gastric emptying times. Would you kindly publish your calculations?

Why did you previously argue that Dr Phillips may have been only slightly out? Its clearly pseudoscientific nonsense to suggest you can determine time of death simply by touching the body, so his conclusions have no value.